Some young American workers are moving to Europe in hopes of a healthier and happier life.
It's funny, because if you're living in the US and bringing up topics (like e.g. healthcare, parental leave, vacation time, sick days, the school system, universal access to universities and higher education, traffic deaths, gun violence, etc. etc. etc.) the reaction is often "well, if you hate it so much, why don't you just leave?"
And then, when you actually leave and live a much more enjoyable and happy life elsewhere, the reaction is "we don't want to hear about it!!!"
Sometimes you just have to make the changes you can. For me, it was time to go - I wanted to see more of the world, to work and explore and see life differently. My family wanted something different: solidity, family, planting themselves. I needed to explore. We both got what we needed.
Honestly, EVERY country is doing this. “If you ain’t dutch, you ain’t much” is our ridiculous motto. Pfft.
Gold plated shithole for those of us unwilling to delude ourselves with that crap.
looks like you should stop talking to that family of yours
Too late. They stopped taking to me.
Doesn't sound like a massive loss, friend. People grow apart, even if they are your blood relatives. The family you choose is far more important, especially if your family gets angry and even writes you off at your lack of equivalent suffering. Americans are so weird about suffering being a positive, "character building" experience for its own sake.
I'm jealous of you btw, you did what I was too chickenshit to do and you reached the promised land.
Sorry to hear that.
I have my family sparsed all over Europe and the world. Just because we are away doesn't mean we don't talk with eachother.
Of course my parents would prefer that we were nearby but they understand.
Lifebalance is just as important as money in the end.
Why the resentment though? Is it because they're thinking that they had it terrible and therefore you should too? That you're not a loyal worker and therefore less of a person because of that?
Or can it be that they feel left behind and you talking about how great it is to them sounds like you don't miss them or regret moving away?
I tried not to parade the differences around, but there would inevitably be issues with any comparisons made. I’m a Democrat, and they are very Republican; this last president has made things very hard. It’s also possibly just simple envy - my father suggested it when he was still with us all - and I’ve tried to keep in touch and be there for children’s birthdays, etc, but now they just turn away. Or just convienent: now 25 years later, I think the friends are more family that actual family.
Seriously been considering moving the family to the Netherlands or Sweden.
Lived in a few places in Europe over the years. Currently in Canada, which is slowly sliding into being a hellhole like America. 😓
I’ll be retiring soon and move to Asia with the wife. We’ll leave the light on for ya… 👍
Thanks. Where abouts in Asia? Had a friend retire in Singapore and they've been loving it.
Close by - have an Indonesian wife I met here and we’re looking at land in Bali.
My family is really gonna hate me now.
I also moved to the Netherlands recently (but from Germany) and their holiday schedule feels really weird to me. You get a lot from April to June and then nothing until Christmas. They should've spaced that out better.
Germany isn't that much better, in most states you get two public holidays between June and December, 3rd October and either reformation day or all-saints' day, and those can all be on the weekend so in a bad year you get zero additional days off.
You do know that most public holidays are based on christian events right? Spacing those out is only possible if we separate those days from religion.
The statuary minimum holiday entitlement of 20 days (most employers give 25+) can be used freely.
I mean, to be fair, many of those holidays aren't actually based on when Christian events happened. It's usually more like co-opting an already existing pagan holiday, and forcing it to fit into some story about their religion. It's often not even in the same fucking season of when an actual event in Christianity may have happened (if at all).
Heh, even here in the home of Christianity we have multiple secular holidays: liberation day, workers' day, republic day, ferragosto ...
Cool thing is, you can even make up holidays if you want!
Dunno how old you are, but you can take a loan to study in Europe, get a job, and decide whether you want to pay back the loan or not. If you plan on never returning to the US, then AFAIK, you don't have to pay back shit and there's nothing they can do. Although, maybe that changed when the USA started demanding taxes from Americans abroad and forcing banks to close their accounts abroad too... who knows.
Anyway, it'll probably be cheaper for you to move to Europe.
You might not know how much you can do. If refugees can travel from Afghanistan all the way to France with their entire family, you can do it from the US. Dunno what you're doing, but crafts and trades jobs are also understaffed across Europe. Germany is even trying to be attractive to nurses all the way from India!
Don't underestimate yourself.
Pretty much what u/woobwub said, I just want to add that here in Germany, all kinds of craftspeople (like carpenters, plumbers, electricians, construction workers, tile setters, you name it) are in desperate demand, with demographic change probably being the biggest reason. Companies offering these services are overbooked and can demand ludicrous prices, while simultaneously lamenting about not being able to get young, motivated apprentices.
To be fair, a lot of said companies still pay their apprentices peanuts while treating them like shit and blaming their staff shortage on the lazy young generation not wanting to work. But if you're a qualified worker in any of these professions, most companies would gladly hire someone like you. If, and here's the big catch, if you can speak German somewhat fluently. And our language is a confusing clusterfuck to learn, or so I've heard.
Anyhow, best of wishes to you and your son (and family), whether you manage to emigrate to a less latestage-capitalism-infested country or try and build up a good life in the US.
As an American who has been abroad for many years, can confirm! I'm visiting the states at the moment and its crazy to hear a family member talking about trying to convince their boss that the employees should get five paid sick days a year instead of only three. Three! A year! Insane.
sick days even
insane
What are you supposed to do?
Turn up, shit yourself, keep helping customers?
Or do you turn up, shit yourself, then get fired?
Last year was super shitty, I had COVID twice and Shingles with nerve pains, I've been on sick leave for more than a month over the year, it would have been a disaster without socialized healthcare and workers' insurance
America becoming a third world country.
If I had the money, I'd be running for Europe right now. America has gone to shit and it is only going to get worse from here
See, that’s the thing. I’m in film and my goal is to parlay this work into a work visa in Europe for this exact reason. I love my work, but I want benefits and protections that just aren’t afforded me here (because my particular Union in my area is problematic as fuck, not to mention hard to break into). But my concern is how this even gets done.
The US has made it very difficult for citizens of other countries to get paperwork to live and work here, so we see a lot of reciprocation in level of difficulty to leave this place. I wish I could get someone to give me some info on the process that’s been through it
Be aware that a lot of US studios love to shoot in Germany, because our unions in the film business are non existent and they can shoot longer and pay less in Germany.
My boyfriend only has a year left of nursing school. With so many countries having a shortage, we are thinking that might help us. Like apperantly in Japan they have a program to get people in for nursing and you can buy a house for cheap. But I'm not sure if I want to love in Japan. About 3-4 months ago I actually had some people from Australia on reddit giving me a lot of good info to help us get over there, and one person was talking to me about New Zealand.
So here's to hoping. I'm gonna miss my family and friends. It's gonna be hard, but I'm tired of this place.
It seems to be going to shit in most of the world these days. The fight for freedom and against consolation of power is a never-ending fight.
The future still seems better in western/northern Europe than the US.
as an European I have to say:
please stop advertising this, they will all come here with their American dreams and turn Europe in USA.
I'm yet to see two of them actually connecting the dots between the "American dream" and the horrible labor laws. They want the wellbeing we have but they also want the rampant capitalism, they think "socialism == communism"
American here - this stuff is actually widely known and accepted among our progressives, who are the people most likely by far to leave.
We just get fucked out of political power at the federal level by the outsized representation of small-population, rural, die-hard-conservative states. For example if the presidency was by popular vote we likely wouldn't have had a Republican president since 93 which would have made the supreme court liberal by 8-1.
At the most fundamental level, the US political system just wasn't built to handle the increasing rural/urban population disparity, and at some point things will need to change. What that change looks like is anybody's guess. One scenario is that with the economic failure of the backwaters, plus the housing crisis and additional automation, it becomes economically feasible to just build/buy enough housing in the backwaters to be able to have a controlling share in the vote. Which obviously sucks in a lot of ways but it might be the solution with the lowest barrier to entry.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. The most reactionary people in the US, those who think socialism is communism and horrible labor laws are "freedom," are too heavily indoctrinated into their own little death cult. They honestly believe there is no country more free than the US and are genuinely fearful of the idea of living anywhere else, they would never move to Europe.
People who live in reality, on the other hand, see how horrible it has become in the US and are looking for a real "land of opportunity," where you do not have to be a willing slave to capital in order to have the right to the basic necessities of life. They are fully disillusioned with the "American dream," and so are more open-minded toward socialism, and are more willing to agree that maybe most countries in Europe provide them with real, actual freedom far more that what they have living in the US.
This has been my experience with immigrants from the US, anyways (and, full disclosure, I am an immigrant as well, just not in Europe).
I think you should take the time to actually talk to people rather than throw rancied judgments all around
If only they would leave their political affiliations and a few bad bits of their culture in the US too, that'd be great. They're otherwise very welcome here, as is anybody else who wants to embrace the European lifestyle and integrate, Iranian, Afghan, Australian, Kenyan, Brazilian, Turkish, whatever.
If you understand that the high salary is to meet the high cost of living in the United States then you'll understand that it isn't a pay cut. Take that one step further and consider the fact that the higher cost of living does NOT come with a higher quality of life in the US.
Honestly, I moved to Germany two years ago, and I would only go back if my family needed my help in the US. Life feels a lot easier, and more comfortable. Yeah, the winter sucks, but even then I'm outside more than when I lived in the US.
There is no bad weather, just bad clothes.
You must dress like an onion.
I've found that that's actually very true.
Since I came from a very dry, hot area, I'm not used to such long winters, weather that cold, and days that short.
I'm in Asia and receive OOTO emails all the time, meanwhile we work even during holidays 🙃. A co worker is a Chilean, and during her 3 weeks leave to go back home after years of not taking any leave, she worked day and night, slept only 3 hours the whole stay. We Asians were successfully brainwashed into the hustle culture
It's a thing I like about Germans. They tend to be more strict about working hours than other EU countries, let alone somewhere like America.
I worked in the Netherlands for a while, and we'd get loads of German visitors. When we were nearing closing time, we'd often have German visitors going "It's his 'Feierabend'(end of day). He can't help you anymore". Especially when they had a problem that would last till after closing time to solve. And then when you told them "no, no. It's fine." they were genuinely grateful. They didn't expect you to work, when you were no longer being paid to.
You shift starts. You work. Your shift ends. You are no longer working.
The unsurprising result: experts often say German workers outperform American workers. Turns out strictly enforcing working hours, allowing workers to recuperate when they're not on shift, means they end up working harder when they are on shift.
I worked for the US division of a German company and found that the culture even for the US workers was very respectful of time off and appropriate working hours. I hated the job because I was customer facing and our customers were typically large US companies, but the German company was a great company to work for.
I'd do it if I could afford it or was younger. Honestly wish I had. The sacrifice now, with family and kids, is too massive.
Muss gerade an diesen Bericht von kürzlich denken, ebenfalls vom glorreichen Business Insider:
https://www.businessinsider.com/...
Lustiger Kontrast.
"We live in a small German town called Otterberg" had me laughing out loud.
I was wondering where she could be living - maybe Munich or some other city in Bavaria, where people are not exactly known for warming up easily on foreigners (read: people from more than 20 minutes away). But no - she's living in Otterberg. Hilarious.
I lived in Italy for two years and would love to go back someday.
As a former EU citizen (UK, thanks Brexit) which countries do you think it is easy? I don't think it is, I believe there is Malta where you can literally buy a passport and Portugal that has some lax visa laws. But gaining citizenship isn't necessarily an easy thing to do.
You are correct with Portugal, I found this on some website:
Portugal is, overall, the easiest country to get citizenship of the EU.
That’s due to the following factors:
Short residency period of just five years before applying for citizenship
One of the world’s most powerful passports
Range of flexible visa options to suit remote workers, retirees and investors
Dual citizenship OK – keep your original passport
Easy language requirements – A2 elementary level
Access generous tax benefits while counting up the years to citizenship
Reasonable minimum stay requirements
What’s more, Portugal has one of Western Europe’s lowest costs of living
Citizenship is easy to get once you already live in the country, not just Portugal, Luxembourg is probably easier even, the language requirement is a low level of Luxembourgish. Of course for that you first need residency. In Portugal is again easy, as long as you have a job contract, Portugal has probably the most liberal migration laws in the EU right now (yeah, wages are low).
Portugal nationality for non-residents is easy as long as you can prove a family connection, that can be a Portuguese granparent or Portuguese Jewish roots (they can be 5 centuries old, is a compensation for inquisition, but you must be able to prove it, a Portuguese Jewish surname helps).
Yeah, I believe they are tax friendly to remote workers and you can get a visa to remain if you've got assets that generate €7k income a year.
I'd say it's still not an easy task to get an EU passport. I'd definitely takes quite a commitment at least.
I heard it's easy for both Ireland and Italy, if you have some sort of ancestry from there. But that's a big if.
If only Europe wanted us there! If moving there were easy, I'd have done it years ago. Unfortunately, I probably need to wait until I retire.
Yep. Focused on a Portuguese passive income visa. Portugal is beautiful
When America sends its people, they’re not sending their best.
I get the reference, youre not alone
Bad take. There aren't droves of people leaving the U.S.
High skilled immigration to the U.S is still big. Hell, its a problem for European tech companies, as their best engineers get poached by the U.S.
Might be a surprising take for some, but Europeans still move to the U.S today. Not in the droves of the 20th century, but still an amount. 12% of all immigrants to the U.S are from Europe in 2021.
That's not immigration, those Europeans generally don't move to the US to stay. The US are a place to make lots of money while your're young, who the hell would want to fund a family or grow old there: The wages might be high, but to get an equivalent level of social security and general quality of life none of it would be left.
Can confirm. Made the painful decision to move back to Europe because we wouldn't have been able to afford the kid's studies, growing old and sick with no retirement and so on
I think it depends. I’m a software dev in the U.S. I have talked to many developers in Europe who feel like they are stuck, and are making a pittance compared to what they make in the U.S. If you were to talk to one of these people, they would be providing a different perspective than what you are telling me right now. And it turns out, moving is hard no matter where you are from.
Personally, I’ve crunched the numbers. Even with social benefits, moving to Europe for me would be a mistake.
Btw, I know multiple European families in the U.S. They aren’t all just here temporarily. Not everyone just keeps moving on a whim.
I’m one of the immigrant families lol.
I think it depends. I'm a software dev in the U.S. I have talked to many developers in Europe who feel like they are stuck, and are making a pittance compared to what they make in the U.S. If you were to talk to one of these people, they would be providing a different perspective than what you are telling me right now. And it turns out, moving is hard no matter where you are from.
Personally, I've crunched the numbers. Even with social benefits, moving to Europe for me would be a mistake.
Btw, I know multiple European families in the U.S. They aren't all just here temporarily. Not everyone just keeps moving on a whim.
I'm one of the immigrant families lol.
I don't think that's really true. The US is still the largest economy and attracts many educated and highly skilled people in the tech sector.
Certain parts are declining for sure, but I don't think that applies to the whole country.
That's what I mean. The middle class is shrinking to non-existent. The few that can afford to jump out of it do it and only someone who can live really well in the USA would consider going there.
The USA will become a land of the rich and poor. No more middle-class.
The educated are paid way more in the US. Americans buy houses and stuff. Unimaginable for most Europeans who don't get to inherit one. Also Europe is on the decline. Due to terrible demographics mostly.
Buying a house in a soulless suburb and living on the driver's seat of a car staring at nothing but other cars and concrete? No, thanks. I believe in the inherent superiority of urbanity.
Please don't forget healthcare, where you might need that plus money instantly.
Americans buy houses and stuff. Unimaginable for most Europeans who don’t get to inherit one.
I've got bad news for you. The median income-housing ratio is going down on both sides of the pond.
Agree with the rest though.
You're being downvoted, but the salary argument is completely true.
I did some calculations before when I was talking to my friend. I live in the U.S now. I'm Romanian. If I were to move back to Romania I'd be taking something like a 70% salary cut. If I were to move somewhere Americans are more familiar with like the Netherlands, I would be taking something like a 40% salary cut.
You guys in here are patting each other on the back, but I've talked to some miserable engineers from Europe who feel like they have no way out. They are making a pittance what their peers are making elsewhere.
Depends entirely on your values and perspective
If you're coming from the upper echelons of US income then it might not.
Otherwise you'll potentially find the increase in quality of life to be significant.
Americans work too much, commute to much and don't take enough holidays. Europeans work significantly less hours day to day, have significantly shorter commutes on average and have legally required and protected minimum annual leave that vastly outstrips US workers.
E.g. Take myself and a US friend in a very similar job into account. Yes he earns roughly double what I do.
- However I average 10-15 hours less work a week than he does.
- My commute is half what his is and I have actual public transport options that aren't trash if my car broke down.
- I get 38 days of paid leave a year. 8 national holidays and the time between Christmas and Jan 1st by default.. That leaves me with 27 days to use with some degree of freedom. He's lucky if he takes ten days total per year.
- I get private healthcare but also know that if that was removed from my benefits I'd have access to state healthcare without the risk of bankruptcy.
Those listed things are just employment based. Culture is also a factor. I've never once worried about being shot in my entire life. Our food quality standards are higher whilst also costing significantly less. We don't have the institutionalised national self delusion of tipping culture. Our religious and crazy right wing aren't politically powerful enough to be dragging us kicking and screaming inti the 18th century like the US is. We aren't completely and utterly dependent on cars, so being car free is a viable way to live.
My final note is this. I'm not some US hating zealot. I literally booked flights for a two week holiday in the US yesterday. I adore the NBA and find American people to be absolutely lovely on average. But I couldn't live the way most Americans do.
What always seemed strange to me: Every single US-American I've ever personally met (in Europe or the US) has always been nothing but polite, helpful and friendly. But 300 million of them (mayby together with historcal ballast) create this political system that seems to be rather counterproductive for raising the average standard of living (emphasis on average, if you are in the top 10%, USA seems to be a nice place to be).
I do concede, that the average standard of living is still impressive, but the continual improvement of the 50s and 60s seems to have stopped
look at it this way, necessities in USA are largely out of reach (health care, education, housing, funded retirement) and luxaries are easy to come by (phones, sneakers, branded clothing, streaming etc).
Whereas in Europe, the necessities are much more attainable for the population at any income bracket. Do you have much more "free cash"? No. Do you need it? No, you have a social safety net.
Even vacas in Europe are cheaper bc for an American to travel to Europe is very expensive by means of airplane. In Europe you can take a high speed train and be in any climate.
On the topic of trains, Public transit is more efficient there than it is to drive cars in the states. Imagine not having to buy a ~$30k car every 10 years? Not to mention fuel and maintain it.
I cannot speak to what working in Europe is like, but as someone who works in the public sector in a very blue state, the work/life balance and benefits are unmatched. Yes, the pay is slightly less, but it is more than worth it imo if it means I only have to work 4 days and 35 hours a week, and not 6 days and 70 hours a week.
Coders in the US can make six figures easy. In Spain it's like 20-40k, 60kish un Luxembourg if you're a specialist and got a masters degree, etc. I've looked at the tech jobs in Europe in general and I'm unimpressed.
Wages in general are much better in the US. But then expenses also tend to be higher, not only health, even the tipping gets crazy expensive. But in the end it's very personal, what makes you happy? Is it money? Being close to family? Being in your own country? For most people the move would be too troublesome to be worth it, I guess.
The way I do it is I put a price tag to any benefits I get. I'm currently in Europe but working remotely for Americans. But let's say I were in the US. Let's say I'm making six figures. Rent in Madrid or Paris is 1-2.6k for a flat. Rent in the US is maybe 3-4k for a flat. But in Madrid coding jobs are 1.5k-2.5k a month. In the US you get 7-12k a month with the same job. In Madrid you're left with 500-1500 to live with and in California you're left with 3-7k a month to live with. Let's say your expenses are double, or even triple, in California than in Madrid. Let's say you live in luxury, you spend 1k on food, 500 on clothes and 500 on transport and other expenses in California. You're still left with 1-5k a month for savings. In Madrid you're left with 0-900.
Even making a top salary and living frugally in Madrid won't net you as much in savings as working in a us capital. And then when you want to retire your savings are worth the same anywhere in the world. You can go and retire in a Madrid town if you want. Your degree of comfort before may be the same, but you can save so much that I don't see how it's worth it to work for European companies if you're able to work for American companies, whether living in Europe or in the US.
If you work for European countries you're usually entitled for retirement money so you don't have to save a huge amount (although the more the better obviously). I'm a programmer and I've stayed in many countries and travelled even more as some kind of a digital nomad. I'm about to move to spain because it's just an awesome county with very nice people. Even though US companies are the top paying one, I'd never work for one as long as I can't do it 100% remotely from Europe. I like travelling to the US a lot but I'm also very happy when I'm back in Europe.
Yeah but I don't have a uni degree or any credentials for anything. I currently get 84k just making websites. I don't wanna stop everything I'm doing to go get a degree to them work for less iykwim
Wages in general are much better in the US. But then expenses also tend to be higher, not only health, even the tipping gets crazy expensive. But in the end it's very personal, what makes you happy? Is it money? Being close to family? Being in your own country? For most people the move would be too troublesome to be worth it, I guess.
Wages in general are much better in the US. But then expenses also tend to be higher, not only health, even the tipping gets crazy expensive. But in the end it's very personal, what makes you happy? Is it money? Being close to family? Being in your own country? For most people the move would be too troublesome to be worth it, I guess.
I'm bitter because I was never well off enough to escape to Europe. Best I could do is maliciously complying with USA capitalism and becoming an anti-consumer
I vacationed in Germany recently. Something about it just felt right... But it would be hard to be so far from my family, and probably harder to make friends or find a church. :(
This gave me a good chuckle...
We have tons of churches in the States, too, it's a matter of finding one that's not weird politically, promoting nationalism or the equivalent of US far-right crazy.
I'm not sure I'd want to go to Europe right now as a means of improving my mental health. Look at what is unfolding in France, or the far-right leaders popping up elsewhere. The US is rough but I'm hopeful we've already weathered that storm. With Russia on your doorstep too, I'd just prefer to travel elsewhere.
It’s because you’re living these events through the prism of TV News. I live in France, I was born here, I’ve lived in other countries too, but here is where I chose to stay.
I haven’t seen any of the events depicted in the news. I know bad events are taking place, I know the president and government are morons. This has zero impact on my daily life. I just mind my business and do my thing.
The US is rough but I’m hopeful we’ve already weathered that storm.
We haven't. Not by a long shot. We've only barely passed the "Beer Hall Putsch" phase of our descent, and we didn't even manage to arrest our Hitler. In other words, we're doing even worse than the Weimar Republic.
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25 years I’ve been abroad (The Netherlands) and the work-life balance is why I stayed. They insist I take days off (still foolishly work like an American) and have already booked out a 3 week vacation for later in the year…and I’ll still have nearly 2 weeks of vacation left. We can roll a few weeks of vacation over to the next year if not used. Even though the Dutch have NO holidays from June to Christmas, I’m still able to take 4 day weekends when I want to.
The downside is family left behind may begin to resent you. My family have developed this red-hat victim culture. I can’t bring up how I live abroad or else it starts fights - they don’t want to talk to me now.
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