'Absurd!': US Billionaires Pay Lower Tax Rate Than Working Class for First Time
2 years ago by jeffw to c/politics
Us poors (the dumb ones, because education will be forever castrated) will clap for the billionaires and lay our thrift store hand-me-down jackets over the curb so they can cross a puddle in the street lest they get a drop of water on their 100k elephant skin boots. It's coming to a head
Although this is true, I'd like this graph on a billboard outside every polling location in November:
Well said.
This is true in the way they may just move overseas, but the frees up the local market for new business and competition!
OR aggressively union-bust and lobby the hell out of congress until, well, we get what we have now: corporate plutocracy.
Wouldn’t they need to employ more people to make the same amount of money?
Just like we never should have bailed out corporations we should not worry about taxing corporations or the rich. The void will be filled and more rich people will be made. That's how the "free market" works. If you do not let companies die innovation slows and the economy rots. Rich people may not be motivated but some poor people will be.
That there are even billionaires, let alone multi-billionaires. It's an immoral, unethical system that fundamentally exploited labor that allowed for this.
That productivity has gone up but wages have remained stagnant should boil everyone's blood. All the wealth stolen and sent upwards into fewer and fewer hands. Legalized theft by way of capitalism.
Great article. Nice to see an economist doing such important work. I don't really understand finances. I snipped the parts of the article that helped me understand the finding/headling. There's a great chart in the article of taxation differences since the 1960s too - staggering! Plutocracy in action!
Published in The New York Times with the headline "It's Time to Tax the Billionaires," Zucman's analysis notes that billionaires pay so little in taxes relative to their vast fortunes because they "live off their wealth"—mostly in the form of stock holdings—rather than wages and salaries.
Stock gains aren't currently taxed in the U.S. until the underlying asset is sold, leaving billionaires like Amazon founder Jeff Bezos and Tesla CEO Elon Musk—a pair frequently competing to be the single richest man on the planet—with very little taxable income.
"But they can still make eye-popping purchases by borrowing against their assets," Zucman noted. "Mr. Musk, for example, used his shares in Tesla as collateral to rustle up around $13 billion in tax-free loans to put toward his acquisition of Twitter."
We can tax registered securities. Stock holdings. We can take 5% or 50% of all outstanding shares, each and every year, and transfer them to IRS liquidators to be resold in small lots over time.
We can exempt the first $10 million held by a natural person, (which exempts about 99.5% of the populace from the securities tax) and establish a progressive tax schedule that causes the tax rate to exceed average gains when holding more than $100 million worth of securities.
You are familiar with the concept of democracy, are you not?
BREAKING NEWS: Republican voters still learning about the Trump Era Tax Reform 8 years later!
I....I mean the original is amazing...one of the best moments in television history....
But you went and made it better somehow.
Damn, beat me to the punch!
Probably get banned for this, but it’s worth it.
Yeah, a whole lot of working folks are one missed paycheck from homelessness. I'm old enough to remember that it wasn't always like this, if you were working you didn't have nearly so much anxiety and exhaustion, you could afford to look after a kid or have the occasional holiday, maybe own a home. Not anymore. The rich are getting richer though.
Yeah, it's really messed up. And getting worse. I'm just not sure how we change it without violence though. Voting doesn't fucking help. And, like me, most of the people who are hurting don't want violent change. Rightly, because like capitalism, revolution hurts a lot of people. But it feels like society is a balloon and the rich are squeezing it and wondering when it'll pop. It's hard to predict what's gonna happen but based on the way things have been I'd say worse.
A general, mass strike would probably never happen. But it should. More strikes in general. I feel like there are still things to try before going full Joker
I think torches, and pitchforks. We should go old school.
I wish people would say this and mean it. I'm waiting. I think we should actually eat one billionaire to make a point. I'm vegetarian but I'll take a bite to prove my commitment.
I'm not a fan of developing neurological disorders, but I would feed Musk to some literal pigs.
EDIT: The Sacklers First.
It's kind of a naive idea though. I used to think it was possible. They will literally just kill us or actively make us poor/homeless/antisocial and make some sort of loophole to make it legal and justified. I wish I didn't think it was game over for the nation but I think it's actually a lost cause. And any time I try to talk to someone in hopes they can influence me otherwise they just prove my point and make me want to give up more. It's like they create a division on purpose, or the benefit of the doubt is that they are too naive or emotional to understand what they are actually doing which is creating more of the people they claim to oppose.
It's like a natural force that keeps war in constant motion. Nobody is allowed to just "be". Doesn't matter if they contribute to society or not. People are disposable to groups and nations. It's an industry. Probably the one that maintains the backbone or foundation of each group/nation/force.
This is exactly what they want you to think. But the republican party is almost at the point where they can't win a national election even WITH all thier gerrymandering and misinformation. 2024 may be the last election where they even stand a chance.
The ultra-rich want you to believe that it's hopeless, but it is far from it. Their only options now are to create a dictatorship or give up political power to the left, who (however flawed) actually represent the people.
When I watched the movie "V for Vendetta" as a kid, I thought it was inspiring and dramatic.
Now I see it as ridiculous. At the end, when the protesters are facing the armed soldiers? And they just stand down? Yeah, that would not happen. There would be a bunch of bullet-riddled corpses in masks. And then the next day, the executions would begin.
I had to take an insane amount of loans out to get my nursing license. I'll be paying them off for over a decade. I don't like this idea
Easy, put a 1 million dollar limit (as in tax kicks in after 1 mil)
And exclude primary residence.
Imagine being being able to afford a residence
There are numerous things to make this proposal reasonable.
Count as income depending on amount of loan, nature of collateral, and usage of the loaned money.
A loan taken out against primary residence used for purchase of same residence under a million dollars? Not applicable. Proceeds used for education, within reasonable limits? Not applicable.
When a loan is taxed as income, provide for tax credits upon repayment reconcile ultimate use of "real" income. That way you avoid the "double tax" compliant they keep whining about.
I find the tax loans approach ultimately the most workable approach to close the loopholes.
Aren’t all loans tied to assets?
No.
That rich get loans that basically last their lifetime. They are income replacement. They are not tied to home, a car, etc.
They are just avoiding taxes.
I don’t blame them. It’s smart.
It’s why politicians need to eliminate it.
Loans to entities with more than 10 million net-worth then.
Sounds like we could fix that too.
My point is, it doesn’t have to be “income tax”, it could be its own, much more painful tax.
(Who am I kidding, enough senators live off this stuff too.)
No, count unrealized asset value as income.
You gained 2 billion in stock value, but didn't sell? You get taxed on that stock gain.
I can’t support that. I myself once had 20 million in stock options but couldn’t sell it. By the time I could sell it, it was worth zero. Yet you in your system I would have paid taxes on it. Stock fluctuates in value to much. We just need way to force them sell the stock and then tax the stock as ordinary income.
Once it went to zero, it would have been a loss and canceled out?
So only corporations and billionaires can afford to own a home?
Pretty sure that is not what I said. Anyway, you are already taxed on the value of your home on a yearly basis, regardless if you sold it or not. Take your ball and go home.
What he is saying your home is an unrealized gain which is true.
While we pay property taxes they are a small percentage and based on the tax value and not the fair market.
While not a fan of property tax they at least directly impact you by providing value to your local area. Why I don’t bitch much about property taxes. I’d rather pay those than federal taxes.
You're not taxed on the full appreciation of your home at income tax rates. If the government did, the tax on the appreciation would price people out of their homes.
for the first time
Nobody ask about the long-term capital gains rate going back to Ronald Reagan's '83 reform.
I imagine they’d count capital gains in the analysis
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/8544719
The NYTimes analysis is just about income taxes
Aren't you contradicting yourself here?
But it isn't for the first time. This has been happening for years
Yeah I know, it is about the total effective tax rate of various income levels. It clearly demonstrates how the ultra ultra wealthy are able to pay less tax. In theory we are supposed to be on a progressive tax system. In reality at a certain income level it becomes regressive. Just focusing on income tax regardless of the rate. Will never show a full picture. There are other taxes that everybody pays. It is much more telling to understand how the whole package works instead of just focusing on one part.
And that is without tax loopholes and evasions. The ultra wealthy have more than enough money to pay the accountants and tax lawyers needed to under report their income.
They used to push for a flat tax where everyone, billionaires and minimum wage workers alike, would pay the same rate. They did one better and now billionaires pay a lower rate than everyone else. Steve Forbes was an idiot. They managed to do it far better than he could have ever imagined when he ran for President in the 90's. Fucking nepo babies...
Flat tax is an awful idea.
Say they make it 10%
When you make $30k a year, $3,000 has a much higer impact on your finances than someone who makes $3,000,000 and pays $300,000 in taxes. You keep $27,000, they keep $2,700,000. You lose a mortgage payment and a car payment. They have to buy a slightly smaller yacht.
On top of that, as already mentioned, their wealth comes from stocks and other non-wages income. Bezos famously only took $81,000 (I think?) in actual pay for many years, yet he’s one of the richest people on the planet. You think $8,100 in taxes is good enough for one of the richest people while you pay $3k out of your $30k?
Flat tax is a bad idea, and the only ones who want it are the wealthy and those who don’t understand that the wealthy could take whatever salary they want to pay as little tax as possible and just live off stocks, loans, which is how they already avoid paying taxes.
I agree that flat tax is unfair, but flat tax with no deductions would be better than current inverted scale where rich pay smaller percentage.
I don’t think you understand.
If flat tax would apply evenly to all sources, investment sales taxed at same rate as wages. No deductions. How would this not be fairer than the US current tax scheme?
A 30% flax tax is higher than the mythical 90%.
The 90% range had so many deductions only 1 person hit it and even then it’s only on the income that exceeds that limit.
A 30% flat tax with no deductions is much more brutal to income but it’s fair.
Trump has said if he's elected he'll lower the tax rate for the rich even more.
The problem is more that one person can control billions in assets, particularly when the staff that generates the revenue that gives these assets value are in poverty.
Good point.. it might have come across like that.. but that is for sure not what I meant.
A home is already taxed. An asset portfolio like stock only when realized. Borrowing against it should count as realizing the gains.
Or maybe better yet, we tax the whole portfolio like we do real estate against the value at the measuring point. Cause a portfolio is either something because it is used as collateral and thus taxed.. or it's nothing and cannot be borrowed against without realizing the gains.
Sir, this is the internet. Well explained and reasonable responses are not welcome here.
Interesting, but if we did a lot of what the billionaire do suddenly the spirit of the law might be more important than the letter.
This is something Warren Buffet has been complaining about for years. It's not exactly a new development.
From 2012:
"Buffett's secretary since 1993, Debbie Bosanek, sat next to her boss just hours after being invited by the president to the State of the Union address, where the president made her the face of tax inequality in America.
Bosanek pays a tax rate of 35.8 percent of income, while Buffett pays a rate at 17.4 percent."
Yeah, Trump was standing on the shoulders of giants like Regan, Bush, and Bush to get us into mess. Thanks Republicans!
commenter wasn't even mentioning time frames involving Biden, but way to play the victim card average democrat playbook
Do not forget Bill Clinton, he played a huge role. Essentially fulfilling republican dreams of deregulation by joining hands with them. It's when the Democratic party embraced corporate interests and neoliberalism. Clinton deregulated banking (see Glass-Steagall) which led to the financial crisis and banking/finance today.
Not even our closest cousins would tolerate a member that hoarded bananas so. No, it would be fangs, and ripping and all sorts of face-eating, and a whole bunch of other stuff we should be taking inspiration from.
It will be a tug of war between the right and the left, leaning slightly right on economic issues pretty much forever.
America is basically run by large corporations. I don't see them just willingly changing course. We will get small wins here and there, but nothing drastic for a long time.
Edit - the spice must flow
AI and robotics are here, more people are seeing their futures stolen. If by "pretty much forever" you mean "about 5-10 years" then I agree. I said the system will break, I didn't say I see them changing course.
Capitalism naturally declines over time, that's why America and other developed countries have expanded internationally via Imperialism in order to super-exploit the third world for super-profits. Capitalism cannot last forever, eventually third world countries will shake off US influence and the empire will crumble.
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Their tax rate isn’t the real issue. The fact that they extract that much wealth out of the labor and production of others is the real problem.
No human being should have a billion dollars. The workers who got you to your level of privilege and status should be paid based on their worth.
A boss that pays fairly would never become a billionaire, and their workers would live good lives being paid the actual value of their labor. Increased demand from increased household discretionary income would create a boom on the supply side.
But it will never happen, because billionaires own everything and will always manufacture consent. Democracy will die to thunderous applause.
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