We Need Downvotes on Lemmy.one

3 years ago by hemmes to c/chat

Really loving the new experiences here on Lemmy.one. But I’m seeing many subs with off-topic posts. Community downvotes will help overworked mods find and remove such posts. I understand no one likes to be downvoted but it’s a necessary tool for our community and only helps users understand and refine what and where they are to be posting their content.

superfly_samurai 26 points 3 years ago

I don't know. I like the lack of a downvote.

If I like it, I up vote.

If I have something to say to support or refute, I comment.

If it needs to be reported, I report it.

Otherwise, I exercise my own right to social media "mokusatsu" and just move on. Almost like it's not even worth my effort to downvote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mokusatsu

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yuun 12 points 3 years ago

Yeah, the downvotes are really unnecessary. Just a lazy way to be negative.

Speak up, report, or move on with your life. Whatever is appropriate to the situation.

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CarrierLost 23 points 3 years ago

I disagree. Initially, I thought lacking downvotes was an issue as well, but I’ve changed my thinking.

If it’s a post or comment I disagree with, I try to reconcile WHY I disagree, and then use that to participate in the discussion, as opposed to just dropping a downvote and moving on.

If it’s a post or comment that needs active intervention by a moderator, reporting it is the best solution anyway, not simply downvoting it.

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sin_free_for_00_days 8 points 3 years ago

Without the downvote option, i just seem to block people way more frequently. Which honestly probably works out for the best

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CarrierLost 3 points 3 years ago

It definitely leads to a more relaxed experience.

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NightOwl 2 points 3 years ago

That's the reason I loved RES and third party apps. Ultimate block controls. I didn't have as terrible of a reddit experience as some people as a result, since it was curated for me.

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sin_free_for_00_days 2 points 3 years ago

It was great having a long list of topics for RES to filter out of my feed, that's for sure.

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JuxtaposedJaguar 5 points 3 years ago

Vote counts are a great way to measure public sentiment at a glance. It's also mostly (but not always) correlated with the quality and/or accuracy of the post. If people only judge a post based on that number, it's a problem with the people and not the voting mechanism.

I recently had the experience where I was looking for a squid farm design in Minecraft. A Youtube video came up that explicitly said it worked with my version. As you probably know, Youtube recently decided to hide all downvotes. But the video had a few thousand views and ~50 upvotes, so I spent 3 hours collecting the resources and building the farm in my world. And then it didn't work at all. There wasn't even an adjustment I could make to fix it. If I could have seen the probably 100+ downvotes, I would have known to look into it more and not waste my time and effort on that stupid design.

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CarrierLost 1 point 3 years ago

I agree with this sentiment, however wouldn't an actual text post saying it doesn't work with your version have been more beneficial than downvotes? I think that is a good example of why downvotes are, to me, the "lazy" option. Not having them means more direct engagement is required.

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falcon 1 point 3 years ago

I recently had the experience where I was looking for a squid farm design in Minecraft. A Youtube video

you would never know if the downvotes are because of video quality, someone not liking the narrator's voice (or the content creator itself). As someone else mentioned, an actual comment saying it doesn't work on a version is way clearer

it’s also mostly (but not always) correlated with the quality and/or accuracy of the post

it hasn't been my experience in quite a few communities. People will downvote things they don't wanna hear, even if it's the truth, or just an opinion.

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JuxtaposedJaguar 3 points 3 years ago

You're right that people may downvote for a variety of (possibly bad) reasons, which is why that metric shouldn't be the only one you use. In addition to just being interesting and informative, I see overall negative sentiment as an indication that the content deserves more scrutiny. Not to discount it, but maybe verify claims that I would have otherwise taken at face value.

Also, the process of manually reading and categorizing comments as positive or negative and then adding them up is much more labour intensive than just looking at a number. I can appreciate that there are some benefits to that approach, but I don't think it's worth it considering that there's a native feature specifically for that purpose.

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falcon 1 point 3 years ago

I guess people in general prefer this way - which is probably why 99% of Lemmy instances have downvotes enabled. You can choose any one of them :)

For me, it makes me more stressed about posting stuff, specially since you can be downvote bombed just for saying you didn't like X book, or whatever.

It also makes me more stressed when reading comments, for some reason. Either when I see an innocent random comment with negative points - I feel bad for the commenter - or when I end up using it as a disagree button and get more stressed. IDK why.

So for me, not having it is way better. Otherwise I maybe wouldn't even have created a Lemmy account, and used the "opportunity" (Reddit down in flames) to be less online - which I guess would also be a great outcome.

TLDR: some people prefer no downvotes, but most instances allow them. Your user is already on lemmy.ml, so why do you care?

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availablecandidate90 2 points 3 years ago

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PapyrusOsiris 4 points 3 years ago

But spam and promotional material (where innapropriate) are worthy of a report so they can be removed, not just pushed down into obscurity.

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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hsl 1 point 3 years ago

I believe this approach well help diminish the echo chamber risk.

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RandoCalrandian 2 points 3 years ago

You mean just like on facebook?

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NightOwl 21 points 3 years ago

I don't miss it. For a lot of people down vote is just a I disagree with your take button instead taking the time to leave a comment instead of refuting it.

If a comment is really problematic better to just report.

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asap 10 points 3 years ago

Absolutely my feeling as well. I think the discourse is better for removing that button, and I haven't missed it.

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NightOwl 7 points 3 years ago

I also know that if it returned I would use it as a I disagree with your take button as I've always done.

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bankimu 20 points 3 years ago

Oh crap. Lemmy.one doesn't have downvotes - this is bad.

Without downvotes it is not easy to know which comments are controversial. I don't want to join another tiktok or instagram, I want to join something informative and thus a proxy of the value of the information (while not perfect) is critical.

I thought it was community specific, but looks like I can't downvote even on other instances.

I need to look for an alternative now.

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jonah 9 points 3 years ago

Yes, you will have to be sure to join an instance aligned with your values on moderation.

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bankimu 6 points 3 years ago

I think not having that will turn this into a tiktok or instagram.

I'm now trying out lemm.ee which has downvotes, and so far looks good.

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jonah 8 points 3 years ago

I disagree, but it sounds like lemm.ee will be a better fit for you, and that's the beauty of the fediverse 👍

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bankimu 3 points 3 years ago

Yeah!

The thing is others can downvote you from other instances. Just you can't.

I don't know if lemm.ee takes the downvotes into account for the score, or ignores them. But from other instances you can downvote the same post or comment.

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falcon 2 points 3 years ago

-1 in terms of a comment score? If you can't downvote, yes, the score is never going to be negative.

That's the beauty of federation: you can choose any of the 90% (or higher) of Lemmy instances that allow downvoting, instead of one of the few that doesn't :)

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Zagorath 4 points 3 years ago

Do you happen to know what happens if someone is on an instance that allows downvotes and downvotes a post on a different instance which doesn't allow them?

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jonah 4 points 3 years ago

The downvote isn't federated.

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true_blue 19 points 3 years ago

In my experience, downvotes do little but encourage dog-piling and echo chambers. I have a few accounts on instances that disabled downvotes, and few that enabled them. The difference is very clear. The instances that disabled them have noticeably more rich and diverse discussion, with users being less afraid to disagree with each other and have proper debates.

The instances that have them enabled vary a bit, but I noticed a pattern that certainly reminds me of The Hard R: Most comments on a popular and highly upvoted post are basically people agreeing with the post over and over again with different words, and then there a few comments that actually disagree, but you'll have a hard time seeing them because they were downvoted into oblivion. This isn't always the case, certainly not as much as the other place (at least not yet) but I have already noticed it happen.

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availablecandidate90 2 points 3 years ago

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MyMulligan 18 points 3 years ago

I'm conflicted when it comes to down votes. In the reddit universe I'd watch within a small community where things were corgial and welcoming that for inexplicable reasons posts and replies would get down voted. This was a fountain pen group.

It might take hours or days for the up votes to take the comment or post into positive territory. The best the group could figure out was it was bots. I suspect some curmudgeon who didn't like when you'd mention Kaweco or what have you because they had a beef with them.

I believe an option just to report is the best option.

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atypicaloddity 11 points 3 years ago

corgial

I think I like this word better than the original

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unfazedbeaver 7 points 3 years ago

I vote we use this as the new official word. Corgies are very corgial, so it just works :)

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MyMulligan 3 points 3 years ago

Haha. My stupid brain wants to spell how we normally say stuff. Yes. Cordial.

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Gsus4 10 points 3 years ago

Too late, new word created:

corgial: adjective

showing or marked by warm and often hearty instinctive friendliness, favor, or approval, as if welcomed by a pack of corgis.https://i.pinimg.com/...

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MyMulligan 6 points 3 years ago

You are correct. This is how society moves forward. Love the new word and definition.

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hsl 18 points 3 years ago

Speaking as a mod, our tools are pretty limited. It's easiest if you report something so we can take a look.

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availablecandidate90 2 points 3 years ago

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hsl 7 points 3 years ago

If people can upvote, won't the most interesting responses rise to the top anyway? Instead of it having to be an upvote or a downvote, you can choose not to respond.

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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nvrmor 1 point 3 years ago

Sorry but upvote/like only communities suck. There is no feedback loop. You end up with corporate properties, cinematic universes, NSFW content, and conspiracies floating to the top.

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lemann 15 points 3 years ago

I was initially skeptical of not having access to downvotes, but I've not really come across a situation where I want to use it.

My view is likely to change though as more Reddit users migrate to the lemmyverse/kbin as a whole

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hsl 10 points 3 years ago

It's been interesting because I've caught the reflex to downvote - and I haven't been able to. I've needed to think harder about my responses.

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DraconMarius 2 points 3 years ago

Agreed!

I personally didn’t mind the lack of (downvotes), but really thought I would at least miss it a little more but I don’t.

Granted I only recently joined so time will tell.

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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unfazedbeaver 15 points 3 years ago

I dunno. I realize the intent behind downvotes, but on reddit this led to dog piling. And regardless of whether you were "right" or not, if the first 1 or 2 down votes, by pure chance, didn't like you, your post/comment was basically nuked to the phantom realm.

If it's that bad, just report it. If its not worth reporting, its not worth the dog piling either

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RandoCalrandian 7 points 3 years ago

And not having dog-piling leads to reverse dogpiling, where only those with the resources/know how to have a botnet army surreptitiously upvote all other comments achieves the same thing.

You haven't gotten rid of the problem, you've just removed your own and other average users' ability to participate in the solution.

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westheimer 4 points 3 years ago

Wouldn't those other bots also downvote if they could anyway?

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JuxtaposedJaguar 1 point 3 years ago

They probably don't mind upvote brigading/dog-piling as much because it makes them feel good.

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RandoCalrandian 1 point 3 years ago

Only positive feelings are just as toxic as only negative ones.

Human experience exists on the full scale. To cut out parts we don't like causes active harm to ourselves, others, and communities

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hemmes 6 points 3 years ago

I have to disagree, as I’ve seen posts get an initial few downvotes well into negative playing field and come back after the rest of the community has had a read. We’ve all seen the back up comments to a post like that “not sure why you’re getting downvoted…”

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AuntyQuated 12 points 3 years ago

I disagree. Downvoting was often used as a super anonymous way to bully people. I am glad it's not a feature here and hope that it remains not a thing on Lemmy.one.

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livejamie 11 points 3 years ago

I agree.

It would be interesting to open this up to the instance and see how they feel.

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speaker_hat 10 points 3 years ago

I would down vote this post if down vote was possible

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briongloid 8 points 3 years ago

I think something that isn't considered is that people aren't always going to be happy with you and the ability to downvote is an outlet, not being able to give a downvote could increase the likelihood that the person responds with their disagreement in a way that results in more negative comments.

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true_blue 12 points 3 years ago

And if they're disagreeing in a respectable or kind way, then that's good! It encourages discussion and debate, instead of simply clicking downvote and leaving the poster no way to know why you disagree at all.

If they're being rude or inflammatory, then that's breaking the rules anyway, so instead of being downvoted, it should be reported.

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hsl 9 points 3 years ago

What's wrong with disagreement? Personally, I'd rather see words that add context rather than an anonymous downvote that could mean anything.

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homesnatch 2 points 3 years ago

Commenting merely boosts activity on a post.. Exact opposite of what you'd want.

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yuun 6 points 3 years ago

Why is that the exact opposite of what you want?

If there's something objectionable in a rule breaking way, report. Otherwise, this seems like you literally just don't want to have discussions, which is certainly your prerogative but then what exactly are you getting out of this?

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homesnatch 2 points 3 years ago

Here's an excellent example.. Nothing against the rules in the comment, but it's off-topic and, frankly, insane. It should get pushed towards the negative and hidden. https://kbin.social/...

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RandoCalrandian 2 points 3 years ago

This, tbh.

If you see something racist or objectionable or maybe it just hurts your fee-fees because the post pointed out you take life advice from your imaginary friend in the sky.... doesn't matter. Sometimes you don't want to give the effort of a response

It'd be as stupid as taking away the 'upvote' button, as well, and then saying "well content will promote based on activity! If it wasn't worth a comment or response, why are you bitching about it in the first place?"

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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hsl 1 point 3 years ago

I can see how this would relate to Facebook's like functionality - but without a karma system and with a completely different set of users, I don't think the impact is the same.

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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Kichae 9 points 3 years ago

The answer, then, is moderators, not institutional passive-aggression.

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availablecandidate90 2 points 3 years ago

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BurningnnTree 7 points 3 years ago

Yeah I don't think it really makes sense to disable downvotes for everyone on the instance. Why should I be unable to downvote something on an external community when everyone else viewing that community has the ability to downvote?

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true_blue 4 points 3 years ago

As far as your instance is concerned, no one can downvote, even outside of your instance, because downvotes are rejected by your instance. This means that downvotes from other instances aren't visible to any users of your instance or any other instance that has downvotes disabled, and they don't affect the sorting of posts.

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Gunther 3 points 3 years ago

I agree with this, I have no problem with Lemmy.one disabling downvotes for its communities, but it's frustrating not to be able to have the option in external communities which allow downvoting.

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falcon 1 point 3 years ago

because I don't want anybody downvoting me on any instance, and I don't want to see downvotes in discussions or have discussions being weighted by downvotes.

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coldhotman 6 points 3 years ago

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hemmes 3 points 3 years ago

Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. I just think that the same could be said for upvote brigading. I agree, definitely report. I just feel that reporting places extra load on moderators that I think should be tending to more serious issues in their communities, and it’s just not in the spirit of the curation platform in my humble opinion.

I appreciate yours and the other comments as well. Lemmy.one is a great instance (a very fast and responsive server as well) but I think I'll be checking out some of the other, more purest-style forms of instances with all the traditional features I expect. But this is exactly why I love the fediverse - so cool that I can just jump over to a different instance that matches my style more closely.

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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hsl 2 points 3 years ago

I'd really like to downvote this comment because it doesn't add anything to the discussion and I don't agree. But I can't so... 🤷

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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PorkrollPosadist 5 points 3 years ago

On Hexbear we found that downvotes were being used by trolls to anonymously manipulate perceptions on the site. In particular, there was an organized campaign to downvote trans-positive content to try to drive them out so stupidpol types could elbow their way in. We ended up cracking open the database table and banning everyone responsible. We also disabled the downvote.

The problem with the downvote is that it is lazy and anonymous. If somebody is spreading misconceptions, they should be confronted in the open, so those misconceptions can be corrected. If somebody is posting something inappropriate for the site, it should be removed outright. By removing the downvote, we brought a lot of arguments out into the open and have since found consensus on many issues which would otherwise remain ongoing sectarian squabbles.

On the software side of things, I think it would be better if downvotes were enabled / disabled at the community level, rather than the instance level though. There are places where they can be appropriate.

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_fov 4 points 3 years ago

Can we downvote lemmy.one posts and comments from another instance?

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falcon 4 points 3 years ago

you can, but it won't have effect on lemmy.one, because it's going to discard downvotes

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_fov 4 points 3 years ago

So a top post on lemmy.one could be a controversial post on other instances?

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falcon 1 point 3 years ago

I kinda get it, but why would a post be controversial and at the same time not a reason enough to either report or block the user that posted it?

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syn 1 point 3 years ago

Yes exactly. I think each instance calculates separately the score and which posts appear in hot/etc.

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spark947 1 point 3 years ago

Sounds like a good reason to block an i stance if it has the predictable results.

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falcon 4 points 3 years ago

please no! This is the reason I chose this instance, and downvotes is something I always hated on Reddit - and occasionally even HN

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aroom 4 points 3 years ago

unfortunately downvote are not only used on off-topic posts. it could also be about disagreement, not about the quality of the post.

so it's not always a good indicator of the value of the post and can be use in a way to shut off divergent opinions, encourage a single point of view. not always a good tool.

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aceospos 1 point 3 years ago

Couldn't the same thing be said about up votes?

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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xc2215x 2 points 3 years ago

It would be a useful feature for Lemmy.

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Kichae 11 points 3 years ago

It's already a feature of Lemmy. The Lemmy.one admins merely disabled it.

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availablecandidate90 2 points 3 years ago

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Badabinski 2 points 3 years ago

The beautiful thing about all this federation is that you can jump over to a different instance and up/downvote to your heart's content. I'm currently viewing this thread from kbin.social and I have the option to upvote, downvote, and boost. Several comments have at least one downvote.

The biggest thing that's irksome is that you can't currently transfer your entire account (subs, saved things, etc). You just have to make a new handle elsewhere. I hope that this changes eventually.

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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atypicaloddity 2 points 3 years ago

I'm actually interested to see how the lack of downvotes affects Lemmy's community and feel. I'm on kbin, which has downvotes, but I'm wondering if eventually posts from Lemmy will actually feel different.

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morrowind 2 points 3 years ago

Lemmy has downvotes, some instances just disable them

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availablecandidate90 1 point 3 years ago

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falcon 1 point 3 years ago

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t_378 1 point 3 years ago

When I first entered this thread I was on your side. But in a twist of extreme irony, the first 7-10 disagreement replies explaining that giving a reason is better than a random downvote, I ended up siding with them. Maybe between blocking, reporting, and explanations, we have enough?

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theguyelsa 0 points 3 years ago

I liked the fact that we don't have downvotes here.

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AbyssalChord 0 points 3 years ago

I would go as far as saying I wish the upvote button were gone too.

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aceospos 0 points 3 years ago

And I totally agree with you. If the downvote option is disabled then same should be applied to up votes. The arguments been put out here against downvotes also apply to up votes

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