Cashless shops operating i̶l̶l̶e̶g̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ (legally) in Netherlands a̶n̶d̶ (but not) Belgium; corporate disobedience

3 years ago by activistPnk to c/thenetherlands

(edit: title corrected thanks to @Ghoelian@feddit.nl’s info)

cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/1624944

Saw a “no cash” sign at a bakery. Conversation went like this:

me: So, no cash? What’s going on there?

cashier: Yeah, we’re not allowed to accept cash.

me: Isn’t it the other way around? Isn’t there a legal tender law in #Netherlands?

cashier: Yeah, we’re not allowed to refuse cash.

me: So this sign posting says loud and clear “we are breaking the law”, in effect, no? Is that not being enforced?

cashier: That’s right. It’s unenforced in Netherlands.

The same thing is happening in #Belgium. This kind of forces me to revise my understanding of European culture & norms. In both the US & Europe there is a culture of certain laws (rightfully) going unenforced against individual natural people. E.g. small amounts of marijuana possession. But I previously thought when it came to moral/legal people (businesses), they simply complied with the law in Europe to a great extent.

IOW, companies complied with laws in Europe. Contrast that with the US where corporations small and large will blatantly disregard any laws that interfere with profit based on the calculated risk of getting caught and risk of penalties.

I just wonder if Europe is being influenced by cavalier US corps and changing to comply only when penalties are likely. Or is this something I had wrong all along.. that EU companies were always loose with compliance?

#WarOnCash

update

The original post was censored without reason by @knollebol4 @nlemmy.nl. It’s now a non-existent node, perhaps rightfully so if it’s going to use an anti-spam tool against ideas.

Ghoelian 15 points 3 years ago

This isn't true, at least in the Netherlands. The Euro is legal tender of course, but stores aren't required to accept it, provided they make this clear to customers.

Source (in Dutch): https://radar.avrotros.nl/...

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Tar_alcaran 5 points 3 years ago path: 0 2709041 2757477, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0
activistPnk 0 points 3 years ago

Thanks for the info. That link is broken for me but I was able to reach the article here:

http://web.archive.org/...

This differs from Belgium then. In Belgium shops are breaking the legal tender law and it’s going unenforced.

(update) It would be interesting to know how Netherlands treats debts and whether that differs from point of sale. E.g. suppose you’ve been paying your debt by bank transfer, then your bank account gets cancelled (either by you or by the bank). You could then be in a situation of only having the capacity to pay in cash. What does NL law say in that situation?

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vzq 5 points 3 years ago

It would be interesting to know how Netherlands treats debts and whether that differs from point of sale.

That’s the point of the notice rule. You need to know about the condition before the transaction, so you can’t be forced into a debt that can’t be settled with cash.

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activistPnk 1 point 3 years ago

I don’t quite follow. It would be nice to know in advance before entering home mortgage contract that 10 years into the loan the bank that holds your asset account is going to give you the boot. The reality is that you don’t even get a 1 day notice sometimes (depending on circumstances).

So the contract with your mortgage lender might say the payer agrees to pay via bank transfer for 15 years, while all contracts for asset accounts at all banks never include a guarantee to keep your account open. They reserve the right to pull the plug at any time. Are you saying that in the situation where the payer does not know in advance that their bank account will remain open that they are protected and thus can switch to cash payments?

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skullgiver 3 points 3 years ago

[This comment has been deleted by an automated system]

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to55 4 points 3 years ago
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vzq 1 point 3 years ago

The “war on cash” is not a thing, but it should be. And it should definitely be illegal to accept only cash.

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activistPnk 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 2709163 2713542 2730029, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
vzq 2 points 3 years ago

Also don’t forget the Illuminati and the lizard people living in caves at the center of the earth. It’s real, I read it on the internet.

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activistPnk -1 points 3 years ago path: 0 2709163 2721556, hotness: undefined, score: -1, children: 0
skullgiver 4 points 3 years ago
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activistPnk 1 point 3 years ago

There are countries that advocate for the right to pay with cash and the privacy advantages it brings.

There is an important distinction here between point of sale (PoS) & debts. AFAIK, the Netherlands & Belgium makes no distinction. But Australia & the US does make the distinction because it’s more of an injustice if a debt cannot be settled in cash.

PoS w/cash ensures privacy & access. It’s also resilient to catastrophes like the power grid going down, bugs and malware bringing down appliances, etc. But if a merchant does not accept cash then it’s not a big¹ deal. The contract doesn’t happen and at least neither party is at a loss.

W.r.t. debts, a debtor cannot guarantee bank access throughout the whole duration of the contract. Creditors also profit from late fees when their info system goes down or they do something to make payments painful or they alter the firewall config to block some customers. The debtor should not be put in a position of incurring penalties whenever the creditor adversely changes the info system. Cash should always be an option because shit breaks.

I’ve had a bank that decided out of the pure blue “we are closing both walk-in service and the website permanently… use our closed-source smartphone app which only works on very recent phones if you want to continue accessing your money”. Not joking. Banks are pulling that shit. I have a term for this: “broken”. When my bank is broken, I still need to be able to pay creditors & if they don’t take cash & yet still expect to be paid, on time or penalty levied, it’s an injustice.

¹ Assuming we’re not talking about something extremely essential. When there is one energy supplier to choose from and they don’t take cash, that is a big deal. So really there needs to be a further distinction between PoS of something both essential and uniquely sold, and other sales.

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skullgiver 2 points 3 years ago

[This comment has been deleted by an automated system]

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activistPnk 1 point 3 years ago

Bank accounts have been the norm for paying most services like energy suppliers for so long that I don’t think you’re going to find a company here that will let you send cash to them.

That’s a problem because now that banks have started violating people’s human rights, the energy suppliers forced banking policy doubles down on those human rights violations.

If the grid (or more likely, the internet) goes down then you do have a problem. Customers of ING and Rabobank will attest that it’s quite annoying when the bank goes down for a few hours, usually people find out about that happening when doing groceries.

The grocery store is not going to let you walk out with groceries if their payment system is down. Hence the importance of cash.

If your bank stops supporting your phone for whatever reason, they’ll give you notice in advance.

The way I received a notice was the app refusing to function. I do not call that “in advance”. Nor does advance warning justify it. They can give months of advance warning - I’m still being forced into the private marketplace to needlessly procure new hardware because of designed obsolecense. To not object is to support that abuse.

Rabobank and ING have special reader devices you can request that will scan a QR code and authenticate payments and logins for those without phones.

There are also still banks that have over the counter service and web service. This does not obviate the fact that some banks impose a closed-source app that depends on agreeing to Google or Apple’s privacy-abusing ToS. Any and all banks are within their rights to go in that same direction. Pointing to a couple banks and saying “look, these two banks are not yet fucked up” is not decent rationale for forced banking.

Your bank isn’t a party to your contract with your creditors.

Bingo. That’s the problem. The finger-pointing is designed to point blame on the victim.

If you care so much about being able to pay in cash, negotiate a contract that will let you do so.

I think you missed my comment that mortgage contracts are non-negotiable.

It’s not your creditors’ problem if you decide to unbank yourself, they’re almost always free to refuse you service if your decisions make you impossible to work with.

Actually it is their problem. They can point to the contract all they want but they can’t suck blood out of a rock. If they shoot themselves in the foot by drafting a fragile contract with simple points of failure, they have a business problem because they still need to get paid. It’s also the victim’s problem to the extent that the debt is high enough for the lender to put a lien on the home. That’s actually the only problem I care about because a human being is taking a hit for an incompetent system in that case.

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skullgiver 1 point 3 years ago

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qyron 1 point 3 years ago

I'm in Portugal and no place whatsoever can refuse to take cash and you, as a customer, can complain in writing and even have the police called: you want to pay, you are not evading your charge, it's the business problem how they handle the cash they receive.

During the pandemic we moved a lot of the day to day transactions to digital format but it was ruled it is unfair treatment to refuse cash.

What can be refused is to take unreasonable volume of coins or too high value bills, as in, paying €50 in small change or handing a €200 bill.

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activistPnk 0 points 3 years ago

Indeed that’s similar to Belgium. By (unenforced) law, a shop in Belgium must accept accept cash but they can refuse banknotes that are disproportionately high for the transaction amount, they can refuse high volumes of coins, and they can refuse if they don’t have change to give back.

There was a group of people who fought the war on cash in #Belgium by entering a cashless cafe, placed orders, racked up a bill, consumed the food, then when it came time to pay they said “here is our cash. We are happy to pay.” The cafe worker threatened to call the police if they do not pay by card. They said “please feel free to call the police… we will wait.” The police showed up and said indeed there was nothing for them to do. The customers were free to go.

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qyron 1 point 3 years ago

Nice move! Have to remember that one.

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