That post seems to be missing.
yote_zip 34 points 3 years ago

I used Arch for 4-5 years, and I'd say that Arch itself generally doesn't break (shout out to when they bricked everyone's GRUB and then took days to make a news post about it.), but user apps (from the normal repos) frequently had minor bugs because they're bleeding edge. There's a bit of a difference here, and I'd say it's important.

Ultimately, when you use Arch Linux you're knowingly using bleeding edge software and that will always have the potential for bugs. Arch Linux manages this as best as it can, and it does it just about perfectly. If you want slightly more stability you probably want something closer to OpenSUSE Tumbleweed's approach, with heavy automated testing.

Nowadays with Flatpaks and other non-root package managers (Homebrew, Cargo, Nix, Distrobox, and even bin), I'd say the average user shouldn't really be using bleeding edge distros anymore. I switched to Debian Stable + Flatpaks/etc and it's basically the same experience as Arch Linux to me. The problem with Arch Linux is that you have to run your whole system as bleeding edge, and I don't think that's very sane for a lot of usecases.

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polygon 7 points 3 years ago

Thanks for the Tumbleweed shout out. I'm always curious about Arch people's opinion of Tumbleweed. Arch seems to cast a large shadow over it. But man do I swear by Tumbleweed. There is nothing in Tumbleweed that you can't do in Arch, but I guess my main question is why would you want to? TW has all the benefits of Arch without the problems. Rather than updating each package individually, TW bundles all the new versions into a snapshot and tests that snapshot to ensure everything works within it. This way no random rogue update conflicts with anything else within that specific snapshot. As a user, when you update you just move from snapshot to snapshot. With Arch you can set up snapper rollback, but you better make sure you've partitioned everything correctly or you need to reinstall, TW will just enable rollback by default.

Some people can't seem to live without AUR, but I feel like distrobox is a much safer way to install software that isn't available on your distro. If you need something that only comes as a .deb, you can do something like:

distrobox create --image unbuntu:\

And now you have a super minimal version of Ubuntu you can run your software inside of using the official packages instead of something someone else has hacked together/compiled. It also makes setting up custom dev environments trivial without littering your install with dependencies. I get the allure of AUR but I'd rather use distrobox or, if I must, flatpak.

The main defense I see of Arch is "it's not Arch's fault, I did ". I guess with TW I don't ever really worry about \ because the OS really just sort of takes care of itself. And even if I did do a stupid \ rollback is there to reverse my boneheaded idea instantly. I say all this after having experimented with Arch for a little bit now. It felt like taking a vacation: everything was new and different and you start thinking about how cool it would be to live here, but then you start to notice the little things, and after a while you just want to go home and sleep in your own bed.

I have nothing against Arch but the constant defense of "Arch broke, but it's not Arch's fault" seems like a meme. Just read this comment section and take a shot for every person who says it. Meanwhile I'm over here on TW running the same versions of everything as Arch has and all I ever did was "zypper dup" and maybe 1-2 times a year "snapper rollback". I don't know if I sound defensive, maybe I do, but I feel like Tumbleweed is criminally underrated and a large portion of people on Arch would probably be better served by something like Tumbleweed judging by the forums/Reddit.

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yote_zip 4 points 3 years ago

I agree with all this. I still think "Arch broke, but it's not Arch's fault" is valid in a lot of cases because when you install Arch Linux you implicitly agree to be on the bleeding-edge, and Arch Linux delivers that to you as requested. Arch is working as Arch is expected to work, and you probably shouldn't be using Arch Linux if you don't have a usecase that necessitates this downside/risk. If Arch wants to make things more stable it would end up looking like Tumbleweed. If Arch wants to make things even more stable it would end up looking like Debian. Arch wants to be at the level of bleeding-edge that it is, and this is roughly what it looks like when you choose that.

My only complaint with Tumbleweed is that the software repository is smaller compared to Arch and Debian. Other than that I think it's a top-tier distro, and I especially like how much effort they put into making sure everything works properly via their OBS testing suites. I agree that using distrobox or other methods is much safer than the AUR, and ideally the AUR shouldn't really even be used at all. Like I said before I strongly believe that with the options we have today, true bleeding-edge distros like Arch Linux have become a small niche, as picking and choosing a couple dozen packages to be on the cutting/bleeding-edge is a lot more stable than running everything fully bloody.

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polygon 3 points 3 years ago

If Arch wants to make things more stable it would end up looking like Tumbleweed. If Arch wants to make things even more stable it would end up looking like Debian. Arch wants to be at the level of bleeding-edge that it is, and this is roughly what it looks like when you choose that.

That's actually a fair point and reading this does change my perspective a little. Tumbleweed gets me 95% to where Arch is, but a lot can go wrong in that last 5%. People who chose that understand that. I think we're in agreement that those who genuinely need that last 5% bleeding edge are a very small group. Back about 10 years ago I was a massive Gentoo fanboy and I admit that Gentoo was my hobby, rather than simply a tool to get work done. I suspect a lot of Arch users are using it for the hobby aspect rather than necessity too, which is fine, I've been there myself. I sometimes wonder if there is a certain type of person who just gets bored when using something stable, and the constant threat/thrill of breakage gives them the drama they crave. I think that describes me fairly well in my Gentoo days.

I still think Tumbleweed is the best compromise between "my grub blew up" and "my kernel is 2 years old", especially when it comes to laptops and gaming. I've not really run into problems with a lack of software, but I do make good use of distrobox environments and flatpak. I'll use OBS builds when only when necessary, namely Mullvad which can't be run sandboxed.

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brakenium 1 point 3 years ago

I'm using Arch on my main machine since it is primarily for gaming where a lot of the focus is on Arch and its derivatives. A lot of guides are made for it and Valve's SteamOS is Arch based. For software development not having to use Docker's own repo is really nice to have as the Arch version is up to date to a point where I haven't noticed any issues with guides or anything

However, Tumbleweed looks very intriguing and I'm seriously considering it for my Framework 16 once I get it as it'll be a machine to get work done, not mess around and play games

Personally I haven't had much luck with distrobox, but that was mostly with Pgadmin 4. Its package in the arch community repo has been broken for years

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LeFantome 1 point 3 years ago

Ironic. I want to use Distrobox as a way of bringing the AUR to other distros. I have been thinking of setting up Debian Stable with Distrobox / Arch to have a stable base while still having access to the AUR.

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clmbmb 15 points 3 years ago

At one point I had an Arch installation that ran for 6 years! I never had issues, but anytime I was updating I was checking the arch announcements too - some packages need manual intervention sometimes. But this was some time ago, I think that laptop broke 5-6 years ago already.

But no, Arch is not unreliable. Usually the user is.

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Dirk 11 points 3 years ago

What about your experience? Any “breakage”?

I am using Arch since circa 10-15 years now on multiple machines for various things. No real issues.

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greyfrog 11 points 3 years ago

I used Arch for a longggg time too. It rarely broke, but when it did break oh boy it completely shit the bed :D

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Dirk 3 points 3 years ago

All the issues I had were replicable and when a fix or workaround was available I could fix the issues or work around them until a fix was available. No surprises or things I could not trace down to a specific issue.

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glassware 11 points 3 years ago

I suspect a lot of "breakages" were failed pacman updates due to signing issues, before pacman knew to update arch-keyring first. I know one person who moved to another distro when that happened.

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exploder 3 points 3 years ago

Does it know even today? Sometimes I still need to pacman -Sy archlinux-keyring before I can update all packages.

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ABeeinSpace 1 point 3 years ago
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ABeeinSpace 1 point 3 years ago

It does, but sometimes if the system is really out of date I have to update arch-keyring before the rest of the packages

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hitagi 7 points 3 years ago

I actually had a problem with the latest kernel a few weeks back. Switched to LTS and that fixed it. To be fair, it's the only real "breakage" I've experienced in the past year.

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Lysandra 2 points 3 years ago
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hitagi 2 points 3 years ago

I was on Zen kernel and that broke for me. I could probably update right now to the latest kernel versiom and my issues might be resolved but I think I'll be sticking to LTS jntil I have a good reason to swith back to Zen.

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1984 7 points 3 years ago

I never know what those people do to their systems. It never breaks for me and I've been using it like 10 years on all my computers, including at work while working as a consultant.

It's pretty important to have a working computer in that role and i never had any issues with stuff breaking. Smaller things like screen sharing was glitchy and so on, but that happened in all distros and had to do with Nvidia shitty drivers.

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NixDev 7 points 3 years ago

I have been on Arch a few years now. I switched before the installer was a thing because I wanted to learn more about building my own system. Got hooked and still using it as a daily driver. I normally have to reinstall every 6 months or so. Usually my issues are all self inflicted. I'll try something new and cause something else to break. I have a laptop that has been running for 18+ months without any issues. But that is web browsing and light text editing.

So the distro is stable just depends on how much you tinker with it, but that's true for all distros

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Bogasse 6 points 3 years ago

My experience with Linux is something like 4 years of Ubuntu then 8 years of Arch. What kept me in was stability (in the sense that I don't need to clean install every 6 months) and the wiki which allowed me to learn, a lot.

Although what I sometime don't enjoy, is the random maintenance burden : every now and then some package you rely on may change how it works (config format, cli interface). You can fix this later by keeping an outdated version but it will eventually need a bit of work. That's something I don't mind on my work computer, but on my personal one ... I just don't want more work coming at me when I get home and want to play games.

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kattfisk 1 point 3 years ago

I think this is what people mean with it being "unstable". If you keep the system up to date, things will break at some point, and it's up to you to sort that out. This is because Arch makes very different promises and tradeoffs than something like Debian. It's a distro for those who want or need to customize or just like to tinker.

The reason I left Arch was because I carelessly installed a new major version of my WM which took me hours to get working. This made me realize that while learning how things work is fun, I want my OS to be a tool rather than a project.

(If you needed to reinstall Ubuntu every six months I guess you were already using it as if it was Arch ;D)

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gianmarco 6 points 3 years ago

Only AUR packages break because of either bad maintenance or bad timing when dependencies get updated but not the AUR package. Other than that I never got any reliability issue, I don't get all the complaints about Arch being unreliable. Sure, I wouldn't put it on a server or something that needs to always work the same way and that needs lots of uptime (but some people do it anyways because they like to live on the edge,) but it's not as bad as people say.

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danakongur 6 points 3 years ago

i've used arch as a daily driver on my laptop for maybe a year now. i just update when i remember to without reading anything and nothing important has ever broken afaik. use AUR constantly and everything.

idk, it just works for me. i have now been inspired to subscribe to the mailing list

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Holzkohlen 6 points 3 years ago

I have had issues with every distro I ever used. I really want to stop distro hopping, but I am never quite happy. I think Arch is great, but I'm too lazy to set it up myself. I just installed Garuda the other day, the lite KDE Plasma version the dub "for advanced users only". Pretty nice so far gotta be honest.

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Kidplayer_666 3 points 3 years ago

Ever tried OpenSuse? I heard it’s quite good, it’s rolling release but it’s apparently fairly stable and it has Yaast, a tool which gives basically every advanced setting you could ever need a GUI kinda similar to control panel on windows

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blackbrook 6 points 3 years ago

Tumbleweed is great! It's close to bleeding edge with an automated testing system preventing most problems from ever getting to you. And if an update does break your system, if you installed withtheir btrfs default, you can just boot to a pre-update snapshot right from the grub menu, and roll back to it.

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boo 2 points 3 years ago

Suse tumbleweed is kinda bad though. The docs are always outdated with broken links. nothing works out of the box. Yaast is kind of clunky, and looks ancient, looks wise. Updates are slow and I got tired real fast resolving broken dependncies.

Their plasma+firefox patches nice though.

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Kidplayer_666 2 points 3 years ago

Fork. I was thinking about maining it next

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boo 3 points 3 years ago

Hey, dont decide based on my comment alone, lol.

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blackbrook 2 points 3 years ago

Tumbleweed is great! It's close to bleeding edge with an automated testing system preventing many problems from ever getting to you. And if an update does break your system, if you installed work their btrfs default, you can just boot to a pre-update snapshot right from the grub menu, and roll back to it.

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AngryDemonoid 2 points 3 years ago

You can use the archinstall script and get it setup in however long it takes to install everything.

I recently went through the process of manually setting up hyprland. Only after finding out it was added to archinstall...

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Gecko 1 point 3 years ago

So far, Fedora has been rock solid for me ^^

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wersooth 5 points 3 years ago

I had some issues with my arch, like no graphics after update and such.... 99.9% of my issues so far comes from Not doing something (nvidia kernel module install and such) or doing something badly. Because linux allows you to do almost anything (it's your macine, not microsoft's), so you gotta be careful what you're doing. But, still rocking arch, I won't leave linux ever :)

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ProtonBadger 5 points 3 years ago

It has been fine for me but I've only used it for ~6 months (Endeavour OS==Arch). I did install it on a Btrfs root with snapper/btrfs-assistant) so I can revert to an old snapshot in btrfs-assistant and reboot in a minute. It tested that it works but haven't needed it so far.

I update whenever with Yay which takes snapshots each time. I don't read mailing lists.

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radioactiveradio 5 points 3 years ago

I been using Arch in a distrobox for a few months now and I've broken it several times now, but I assure you that's it's my own stupid that did it.

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AngryDemonoid 5 points 3 years ago

I don't follow any best practices. AUR, updates without checking the feed, etc. Been on arch for 2 years or so without any major issues.

Two days ago I decided to give hyprland a try just for some excitement. Lol.

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callyral 4 points 3 years ago

I recently moved to Arch from Artix, I followed the installation guide and installed with btrfs. My experience in both systems was/is great, the software is up-to-date. I mostly use system packages, flatpaks and sometimes AUR packages.

I have not had any system-breaking issues.

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SpaceCadet 4 points 3 years ago

I guess it depends on how you define "breakage". The system being completely b0rked and unsalvageable? No, that has never happened.

Bugs, regressions or other gotchas or annoyances that needed to be dealt with? Yeah, several since I started using Arch in 2014.

  • netctl hanging on boot (it was some systemd config issue)
  • Very slow throughput issue with the Intel AX wifi driver (needed to rollback kernel and firmware until upstream fixed it)
  • Intel NIC disconnecting under high load (was eventually fixed in a firmware update)
  • Graphical artifacts in chrome and firefox after certain mesa updates (amdgpu related, eventually fixed)
  • Black screen in google maps after a mesa update (amdgpu related, eventually fixed)
  • Mesa update breaking high refresh rates in vkQuake (mysteriously fixed after several months)
  • Grub introduced an incompatible update last year, so had to boot from USB and re-run grub-install
  • An issue with vim syntax highlighting being broken for bash scripts. Was caused by upstream, and quickly fixed.
  • A new readline version introducing bracketed paste by default. I'm not counting this as regression or bug, but it's an instability because a default behavior suddenly changed
  • mpv's pipewire audio output was broken a few weeks ago leading to muted videos. It was an upstream bug that was fixed a couple of days later.
  • mpv's default subtitle handling behavior was changed around the same time as well, had to add subs-with-matching-audio=yes to the config to revert to previous behavior
  • Currently still struggling with an issue with virtiofsd: my VMs can't re-mount virtiofsd filesystems when they are rebooted.

And there were probably several more which I can't remember.

Mind you, I'm not blaming Arch for this. It's just what you can expect from a rolling release distribution, and if you are not able or willing to occasionally diagnose/fix things like this, Arch is not for you.

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jg1i 4 points 3 years ago

I've been using Arch in 1 desktop and 1 laptop for like 7 years now as a daily driver. I use pacman and AUR to install stuff. I haven't had a breakage yet. In fact, I've had hardware get better supported over time due to access to the latest kernel updates.

Most impressively, I had my desktop shutoff for like 8 months one time. When I turned it on and updated the system packages...... Everything just worked and I was immediately up to date.

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Lurkki 3 points 3 years ago

My experience of pacman (same point goes for most package managers) was a pacman -Syu freezing my PC completely, and when that happened, pacman went into a broken state and had to be sorted out manually.

This and a couple other reasons is why I can't be bothered with mutating distros in general anymore.

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dingleberry 3 points 3 years ago

When multiple people report frequent issues, your first instinct shouldn't be to defend your favourite distro.

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Herbstzeitlose 4 points 3 years ago

You think everyone who claims “Arch is unreliable and breaks” has actually had frequent issues with Arch?

I’m willing to bet that a not-insignificant portion of these people have never actually used Arch for a significant amount of time and just parrot it without thinking. Just like the Nvidia people and the systemd people.

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rikudou 2 points 3 years ago

I'm one of the Nvidia people and it indeed does suck.

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Lysandra 1 point 3 years ago
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Sorchist 7 points 3 years ago

Ah yes, why are people so silly as to use Grub, the single most widely used bootloader in the Linux universe, we should blame that poor choice when they have problems with arch

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thericcer 3 points 3 years ago

I've used the same Arch install from about 2018. Regular updates, several AUR packages (pikaur), a migrate to md raid home and root, encrypted root/home, major hardware upgrades; all with no issues.

The removal of python 2 was the hardest thing I've had to handle; but that really wasn't difficult with understanding of the package manager.

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hornedfiend 3 points 3 years ago

Same here. Used arch install out of laziness after distro hopping and I almost exclusively use flatpaks and appimages (only installed fuse2 for it).

I try out other distros occasionally, but almost always end up on arch again (tried crystal Linux for a week on bare metal just to try their onyx DE) and it never broke on me,or if it did because of some upstream issues,I just downgrade ane blacklist it until it's fixed.

I love arch.

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Genghis 3 points 3 years ago

I actually just installed Arch on my gaming PC a few days ago. I've been testing out many games with it and I'm very happy with it. I was hesitant to switch from Windows because I wasn't sure if the game support would be an issue, but thanks to Proton, I finally switched.

No issues using an Intel CPU and Radeon GPU as of now, except the archinstall wasn't working for me so I had to do it the normal way.

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Lysandra 3 points 3 years ago
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Genghis 3 points 3 years ago

Lol, I did update it and still wasn't working :(

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Lysandra 2 points 3 years ago
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GamingChairModel 3 points 3 years ago

In the early 2010's, daily driving Arch on a laptop was a bit of a pain. And maybe I just didn't have the skillsets to be able to understand how I needed to maintain the system. My Arch install broke when they switched from Sysvinit to systemd. My system broke again when pacman started enforcing package signing. I also had some issues with a buggy wifi driver that would break almost every time I updated the kernel, so I started to hold back on regular updates, at which point I probably should've switched to a distro with a 6-month release cycle.

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thisbenzingring 3 points 3 years ago

I have a couple of arch machines. On my daily driver personal laptop, it's been there since 2017. It was on there for a few years before that but I upgraded the hard drive so I reinstalled.

It's bulletproof IMO. I use yay but I only update that once a month. I update pacman maybe once a week or whatever I hear of a update/patch and when I install something new. I tinkered it a bunch when it was fresh and rarely tinker anymore, because it's basically perfect as it is.

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Bandicoot_Academic 3 points 3 years ago

The only breakages i have encouterted were caused by nvidia (and there were a lot of those). If we exclude nvidia issues then i have had a very problem free expirience.

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RedWeasel 1 point 3 years ago

The only issue I have had regarding nvidia is when kernel developers intentionally broke it. And that just delayed the kernel update for my system by a little bit.

Edit. And i just reverted the patch until nvidia released and updated driver.

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hottari 2 points 3 years ago

I use Arch the same way. As a stable base for my flatpaks :).

Last time I remember doing serious manual intervention was the move to OpenSSL 3.0.

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linad 2 points 3 years ago
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RedWeasel 1 point 3 years ago

I’ve had problems like this where i am using aur git packages. That isn’t really an arch linux issue. Have had and problems otherwise.

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s20 2 points 3 years ago

My experience with Arch is generally that it gives me enough rope to hang myself. Basically, every arch setup I've ever done has broke on me, but it was pretty much always my fault.

And I keep doing it because I'm masochistic enough to find it fun.

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HouseWolf 2 points 3 years ago
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scytale 2 points 3 years ago

I ran Antergos for years before they stopped development, then I converted to vanilla Arch. There were the occasional boot issues after an update, but it worked out after grub reinstallation/reconfiguration. After an update a month ago, my laptop finally stopped booting properly no matter how many troubleshooting steps I did. I couldn't pinpoint which update crashed it because it wouldn't boot properly. Switched to other distros to test and they didn't work either, so I figured my (very old) laptop just finally died.

Right now I'm running Mint on another old laptop as I have no time to maintain a bleeding edge distro and I just need something that works.

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Lysandra 0 points 3 years ago
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scytale 2 points 3 years ago

Like I said, I didn’t blame Arch, my laptop just finally gave out.

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Lysandra 1 point 3 years ago
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Spudwart 2 points 3 years ago

Maybe in a server environment it may be. But even in my home server setup, arch just works.

I even took the easy way out with archinstall for both.

I know that’s not very “I use arch btw” of me, but my server’s hardware literally died before my arch install did. And then I just dropped it into new hardware and it just worked.

I’ve been running that server for 2 years, and my Desktop for less than 1 on raw arch. I used to use Manjaro but I switched to Arch because Manjaro’s packages were always annoyingly neglected. The amount of Times I had to circumvent Manjaro’s repositories to install the latest discord was rediculous. But even with Manjaro, my install never bricked.

I’ve had Debian based installs like Ubuntu and Pop Os all brick before. Trying to do Qemu or edit some grub options and poof broken.

Don’t know why, double, triple checked what the guide said.

But it still broke. And I think that’s mostly because Unlike arch, most user friendly distros assume the user either isnt going to use these power user features or can just use online guides.

Problem is online guides frequently go out of date.

The arch wiki is always pretty consistently up to date enough not to cause issues. That random no-name website article is not.

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wax 1 point 3 years ago

I use arch for services that does not have debian packages or docker images. AUR usually has a convenient PKGBUILD that keeps them up to date without me having to download a blob package manually

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LeFantome 2 points 3 years ago

It has been very reliable for me ( once I figured out keyring )

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regular_human 3 points 3 years ago

Keyring is the biggest pita. Otherwise just read the news feed before you update and you'll be fine

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Addv4 2 points 3 years ago

I've had arch "break" on me about 4-5 times. Most of the time it is issues regarding Nvidia drivers being updated (usually just chroot and reinstall/reconfigure drivers fixes it), but the others were mostly my fault (I'm often pretty lazy about making sure my system is up to date, and expect some breakage if I update only about every couple of months on a pretty customized system without looking to make sure nothing will cause an issue).

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nakal 1 point 3 years ago

My Arch broke when they changed to systemd. I couldn't boot properly. Debian did it better.

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GustavoM 1 point 3 years ago

Oddly enough, my experience has been completely the inverse -- Debian breaks, but Arch does not.

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Francis_Fujiwara 1 point 3 years ago

I always have problems with WiFi for some reason.

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bdesk -1 points 3 years ago

Do you use Arch?

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Lysandra 0 points 3 years ago
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Redhotkurt 3 points 3 years ago

They're joking. It's the "I use Arch btw" meme

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Lysandra 2 points 3 years ago
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Jestzer 2 points 3 years ago

They know you use Arch, they're joking. The joke is that Arch users tell people they're using it without anybody asking, hence, the phrase, "I use Arch, btw."

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bdesk 1 point 3 years ago

What post?

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Carter -3 points 3 years ago

Last time I used Arch it lasted about 20 minute before crashing and then failing to boot. I really can't be bothered with that sort of OS on my PC.

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Lysandra 1 point 3 years ago
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Carter 1 point 3 years ago

I'd left Steam open downloading games and then noticed it had completely frozen.

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thanks for using Leebra!

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