Why are translations from a logographic language to an alphabetical one bad?

15 hours ago by Shadow79 to c/languagelearning

I'm mainly speaking from the viewpoint of translating (non basic dialog) from Japanese > English or Mandarin > English which often or not gets the results wrong or the translation is terrible (that is something you barely hear when you translate let's say from German > English), you know the mistakes upon learning any language when you translate from the target one to your native tongue alongside the nuances, grammar and sentence structure.

lvxferre 6 points 13 hours ago

I think this doesn't have to do with the writing system, but with how heavily a culture relies on context to convey meaning. In general, East Asian cultures do it way more than the ones from Western Europe and the Americas, so Japanese/Mandarin/Korean/etc. speakers are way more likely to omit contextually clear words than German/English/French/etc. speakers. And if the translator is inexperienced they might try to translate the sentences word-by-word, or even get the context wrong, and in both cases you'll get issues.


EDIT: crafted a cute example based on… well, weeb knowledge. Consider the following situations.

  1. Your friend stumbled and fell down, and you're worried they might have hurt themself.
  2. You stumbled and fell down. You didn't hurt yourself, but a friend is worried you did.

Your typical English speaker would answer #1 with "are you alright?" and #2 with "I'm alright." Or similar. They might perhaps clip the verb from #1, or replace "alright" with "okay" from either, but the subject will be always there.

And yet that's exactly what Japanese does with "大丈夫" daijōbu. Sure, you could phrase it as a question in #1, like "大丈夫ですか。" daijōbu desu ka?, but for most part you don't need to; and you're certainly not including the pronoun, it's kind of obvious that the word refers to whoever fell down.

Now. Imagine you're translating that "大丈夫" into English. A noob translator might translate it with "alright"… and it gets hella confusing — what is supposed to be alright? Or they might pick the context wrong, and translate it as "I'm alright" when it's supposed to be "are you alright?" or vice versa.

Except Japanese won't do this just with the pronoun, or the "hey, this is a question!" mark. It'll do it pretty much all the time — why two words, one enough?

path: 0 24383622, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 0
Onomatopoeia 6 points 15 hours ago

First, English is a Germanic language, so that's not a great comparison - modern German and English both stem from an earlier Germanic language, so they share a lot of words and basic structure (and just as important, the cultures where these languages matured shared a common history).

Second, what you're really comparing are languages with different origins, keeping in mind the written form of any language is at best a descriptive approximation of the spoken form.

So these are languages with very different sound structures, on top of cultures with different paradigms, histories, etc.

It's really a "Darmok and Jilad at Tanagra" problem - we really do a lot of communication via memes, as much as we may not notice it on the daily.

Back to translating logographic form of a language to another language that's written using an alphabetic form - the first is based on something like syllables or entire concepts, the second constructs those ideas/concepts via multiple phonemes->words>sentences. And now we circle back to the paradigms and memes of two different cultures.

Written langauge isn't just a different way to scribe the same things, it's actually scribing very different things depending on the underlying culture.

(I'm not a linguist - corrections from someone more knowledgeable requested).

path: 0 24381900, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 2
Wfh 4 points 12 hours ago

I agree completely with you.

Chinese languages or Japanese have nothing in common with English. Each of them belong to a different fundamental language family, distinct from Indo-European which a large majority of European languages come from. When translating, you need to adapt everything. The language structure is different, the culture is different, the fundamental concept of how the "language" tool is built is different. You can either translate faithfully and make no sense in the target language, or adapt to the target culture but completely lose the original text.

For example, Japanese or Korean are deeply structured around honorifics. Not just stuff like "your honor" or "your majesty", the entire grammar and vocabulary change depending on how you stand socially vs your interlocutor. This is profoundly embedded and natural in the dialog and has very important meaning in the original language, but is completely impossible to translate or adapt to English, which has no honorifics system.

path: 0 24381900 24384097, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1
Onomatopoeia 3 points 12 hours ago

Oh, wow, that's fascinating and I had no idea.

You make a great point about choosing how/what to translate - deep meaning or literal. Even then I'm sure it's really difficult.

path: 0 24381900 24384097 24384475, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
frisbird 3 points 14 hours ago

Start with the difference between logographic language and alphabetic language. These are both written forms of spoken languages.

So part of the question will be: "is there a difference between spoken languages that first developed a logographic representation and spoken languages that first developed an alphabetic representation?"

In logographic languages, you're not generally representing sounds, you're representing concepts. In alphabetic languages, you're generally not representing concepts, you're representing sounds. If you invent a fundamentally new logograph, no one will know what it represents nor how to pronounce it until you tell them. If you develop a new letter, no one will know how to pronounce it until you tell them.

In an alphabetic language, you can combine letters to produce new words that may or may not have any relationship at all to similar words. The components in alphabetic languages essentially only carry a sound and no other meaning.

In a logographic language, you can combine logographs to produce new representations of concepts that generally have to relate to the concepts attached to the component logographs. Sometimes people can work out the new pronunciation as well.

Fundamentally, the ways in which we encode information in logographic versus alphabetic languages is wildly different. And since there are more concepts than could ever possibly be fully written down, these technologies need ways to expand. In alphabetic languages, we make new combinations of letter to make new words, but we also use idioms, phrases, and metaphors. Rarely do we make homophones and homonymns, but it happens. In logographic languages, nearly every logograph stands for multiple concepts by default.

At this point, it should start to become clear that if I am translating a text as text, without the context of the entire conversation, without hearing the spoken language, and without understanding the intent, subtext, poetic devices, and history of it all, then it's very very easy to get totally lost when trying to translate.

path: 0 24382673, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
aivoton 1 point 14 hours ago

[deleted], see OP's profile for reasoning.

path: 0 24382890, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
languagelearning
languagelearning

@sopuli.xyz

login for more options
980
167
71

A community all about learning languages!

Ask / talk about a specific language or language learning in general.

**Sopuli's instance rules apply**
  1. Remember the human! (no harassment, threats, etc.)
  2. No racism or other discrimination
  3. No Nazis, QAnon or similar whackos and no endorsement of them
  4. No porn
  5. No ads or spam
  6. No content against Finnish law

Other active Lemmy language communities:

Other communities outside Lemmy:


Community banner & icon credits:

Icon: The book cover of Babel (2022 novel by R. F. Kuang)

Banner: Epic of Gilgamesh tablet (© The Trustees of the British Museum)


go to feed...