HP laptop rejects Dell PSU on the basis of branding.. apparently. Crappy design, asshole design, or good design?

2 months ago by daveyOsborn to c/askelectronics

cross-posted from: https://infosec.pub/post/51092505

I have a 3-pin Dell PSU spec’d as 19.5v 3.34A and DMM measures at 20v unloaded. The power reqs on the HP laptop are 19.5v 3.33A. AFAICT, that’s a match. Even the 3-pin barrel connector geometry matches. So what’s the problem?

The center pin is a “smart pin” aka “data pin”, as I came to learn. According to @over_clox@lemmy.world, this PIN basically passes brand info so HP can reject non-HP PSUs. But according to this article, the data pin is used to “regulate” the voltage -- which I take to mean it negotiates the voltage for transmission as USB-PD does. If it’s merely negotiating power reqs, then the Dell should work.

It’s possible both sources are correct.. perhaps HP has its own proprietary way of negotiating voltage and Dell has theirs.

Someone even claims that the data channel is used to communicate temp info so a PSU does not overheat. If that’s true, then perhaps it was a good design (noting that the USB-PD standard did not emerge yet).

But is it true about the communication? Considering there are hacks with a resistor or something to satisfy the data channel, it’s hard to believe that the communication is that sophisticated.

This page advises HP owners to always buy HP-branded PSUs. But it’s unclear if that’s just overly safe nonsense.

Onomatopoeia 11 points 2 months ago

Meh, those designs were to ensure you got the right power supply and didn't fry the mobo.

It's a little of asshole design, but it also prevented warranty issues from people using the wrong PSU.

Having been on teams depliying thousands of laptops and desktops, knowing everyone had the right power supply was important - this helped us too. End users can be oblivious and will just plug in shit willy-nilly. We only had a few spare machines, and no spare time. Imagine if using a different PSU could cause problems - we could be chasing a few rogue power supplies for days.

I'm ok with this choice, even with the bit of asshole design.

Fortunately USB C adoption is making this problem go away.

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wiccan2 5 points 2 months ago

USB-C has been game changing for us.

I can now confidently go to any desk or meeting room in the company and be fairly certain that my laptop will just work with whatever's been installed regardless of brands.

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daveyOsborn 2 points 2 months ago

USB PD is also a shit show. You might want to read this:

https://goughlui.com/...

Which shows those USB PD negotiations can get dicey. It chooses voltages thought to be close enough to what’s requested.

I’ve run into a nasty problem where a USB-C appliance needed 9v. Says in the manual something like “only use Kenwood power supplies on this device”. I thought, fuck that, USB PD is a standard for a reason. I’m not going to blow money on a proprietary OEM Kenwood USB-C PSU. Then found that many power supplies actually skip 9v. The USB PD standard makes some voltage steps optional, and some mandatory. IIRC, 9v was one of the required ones, yet it was easy to find USB-C power supplies that skipped 9v but offered 12v (or 15v, I forget). And yet 12v or 15v was one of the voltage steps that’s optional. And IIRC, the Kenwood OEM PSU /only/ did 9v, which is also not USB PD compliant, so the Kenwood PSU could not be used on other things.

So the USB PD strangely and arbitrarily makes some voltage steps optional, and manufacturers ignore the standard anyway.

I have an adapter that goes from barrel to USB-C. Recipe for disaster. Even if a 9v PSU uses that adapter and a USB-C appliance wants 9v, it will fry shit because any non-5v appliance expects to negotiate the voltage. I don’t recall how it leads to frying (I think b/c it tries to start at the 5v default before negotiating for 9v but instead it just gets hit with 9v), but the fact that there are USB-C-barrel adapters that just hardwire without the needed logic is scary.

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cmnybo 2 points 2 months ago

12V is optional now. It was part of PD revision 1.0 and dropped in later revisions, but many chargers still support it. 9V has been required since PD rev 2.0.

With the device that uses the 9V only USB adapter, I would either glue the plug in or replace it with something else. Its too easy to accidentally fry something with that.

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Onomatopoeia 2 points 2 months ago

So I have an adapter that goes from barrel to USB-C

That's no part of USB spec as there's no way to communcate requirements through the barrel. Hard to blame USB for when we side-step it's design.

I do stuff like this too, but only for devices that just need power, nothing like a laptop or with circuitry that could get fried by the wrong voltage.

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daveyOsborn 1 point 2 months ago

That’s no part of USB spec

Do you mean the USB PD spec? It does not violate the USB spec which sets a default voltage of 5v. The adapter /might/ violate the USB PD spec if it were to claim to be PD compliant. But the shit-show we have is that USB-C does not imply USB PD. And so the market is full of USB-C things that are not USB PD. Often they do not claim to be USB PD as consumers are not wise enough to demand it. AFAICT, USB-C devices that do not mention USB PD would stand up in court.

Note as well the adapter I mentioned is quite dumb -- just hardwires pins for the situation that the appliance expects 5v without negotiation. Naive consumers could get burnt for sure whenever exceeding 5v.

But it would be possible to implement a USB PD-compliant adaptor with the smarts to handshake, which would then refuse to complete the handshake in the event that the voltage supplied is not that requested. Of course it would be a bit strange to put that much sophistication into it which I suppose would drive the cost to that of a whole compliant PSU anyway (thus defeating the purpose). But notice the opposite has been done in a compliant manner, whereby the barrel adapter negotiates a USB voltage on behalf of a barrel device.

as there’s no way to communcate requirements through the barrel.

IIRC, it’s disputed whether the hanshake negotiation is needed for 5v. Some appliances expect to do a handshake /no matter what/, and some 5v appliances are designed to skip the negotiation entirely. If you are in the camp that says even 5v must have a handshake negotiation, then you would condemn the simple barrel to usb-c adapter (but perhaps not one that is only for a fixed input and the circuitry to do the negotiation).

Hard to blame USB for when we side-step it’s design.

The blame was not pin-pointed. I pointed out a shit show in the marketplace. There are bits of the standard you can blame (ambiguity and also having optional voltage steps), and you can also blame market actors. You can probably also blame regulators for not preventing the shit show that I described. And perhaps even blame consumers for not insisting that what they buy is tagged as USB PD complaint.

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kkj 1 point 2 months ago

I'm getting the sense from your comments that you think that USB-PD will deliver a higher voltage than requested. This is not accurate. A device can request any of the voltages specified by PD, and the power supply will supply that voltage if it is capable of doing so. If not, it will provide 5V. It's very possible to get a sippy that won't power your device, but a working, PD-compliant power supply will not damage a working, PD-compliant device.

Obviously, if you get a barrel jack adapter that requests 20V and then plug it into a 5V device, you're going to let the magic smoke out, but that's because barrel jacks don't do negotiation. The power supply correctly supplies 20V as requested, and then you plug that 20V into the wrong thing.

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daveyOsborn 1 point 2 months ago

I’m getting the sense from your comments that you think that USB-PD will deliver a higher voltage than requested. This is not accurate. A device can request any of the voltages specified by PD, and the power supply will supply that voltage if it is capable of doing so. If not, it will provide 5V. It’s very possible to get a sippy that won’t power your device,

See the experiment I linked in the post that you replied to. If 19.5v is requested, 20v is supplied. If 12v is requested, 9v is supplied (not 5v). But also since 9v is optional, some PSUs would push 5v. So the voltage you get depends on what the PSU makers feel like sending.

but a working, PD-compliant power supply will not damage a working, PD-compliant device.

Yet they will fail because compliance is subject to interpretation and the ambiguities are disputed. Try plugging a USB-C bicycle light into a Lenovo USB-C PSU. Even though they both handle 5v, it fails. The Lenovo device makers believe all voltages, even 5v, must be negotiated. The bicycle light makers believe a 5v “default” /means/ they should get 5v without negotiation. The Lenovo PSU makers believe “default” means 5v will be the result of a failed negotiation (but not absence of negotiation).

And other device makers believe USB PD requires supplying the closest voltage when negotiation fails, not 5v. Those people probably also believe 5v should be sent in the absence of negotiation.

Obviously, if you get a barrel jack adapter that requests 20V and then plug it into a 5V device, you’re going to let the magic smoke out, but that’s because barrel jacks don’t do negotiation. The power supply correctly supplies 20V as requested, and then you plug that 20V into the wrong thing.

You’re mixing up the different adapters. You can have a USB→barrel and you can have a barrel→USB. The interesting case is what I described, when the appliance and PSU are compatible in terms of voltage but still fail because of the protocol. Also consider that a 20v barrel PSU could feed a dumb usb-c adapter which then fries a 5v device. In principle, the adapter /could/ do a negotiation and refuse to supply 20v to a 5v device, or even just cut-off anything above 5v, but the shitshow that we have is a marketplace with dumb adapters. And in both situations (usb→barrel and barrel→usb), it’s not foolproof. Countless consumers cannot handle the voltage matching task so if the plugs fit, they will try it.

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ChrysanthemumIndica 3 points 2 months ago

I just responded to the other post, and I definitely agree with you that when you're working with so many systems, knowing you have a baseline for the power supplies is important! (Especially given how sketchy those third-party adapters can be...)

But I will say I think it's pretty anti -consumer, and not accidental at all, that there is vendor lock in there. And as I said in that reply, I think a setting in the BIOS with a warning (and maybe a warranty invalidation?) that allowed it would have been the more friendly approach, but I can only imagine how much the lawyers would yell about why that's a bad idea, haha

USB-PD made me so happy, I was using my Apple power adapter with my Surface and Dell laptops and it was great!

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Onomatopoeia 2 points 2 months ago

Well put.

Though I've had little trouble using other power supplies across brands, so I wonder if this is a single HP line.

I've never run across this in business models - if the barrel fits it works, but each brand used their own barrel design, whether that was a different size or a pin in the middle.

And I've worked with many brands since the mid 90's - I've deployed thousands of machines over the years - not to say I've seen all of them, but a lot of the major brand's business models.

Consumer models are just garbage, so if this happens there I'm neither surprised nor concerned. I never buy consumer models - they're garbage, and cheaper for that reason.

And now C is resolving the issue.

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daveyOsborn 2 points 2 months ago

So in the context of copious dumb users plugging in anything that fits the socket, the data PIN may¹ have prevented a lot of damage while at the same time enabled HP to rack in lots of money on replacement OEM proprietary PSUs. Indeed I have seen on many occasians clueless plebs at the street market selling 2nd-hand appliances and quickly trying barrels from a pile of tangled PSUs until one fits, then trying to include that with the device they are selling without looking at voltage or anything. It’s common and I’m sure lots of gear gets fried because the general population is just not smart enough.

I know how to match voltage, polarity, and current demands. And I got stung by the nannying to protect me from myself. Spent a lot of time disassembling a laptop, trying different RAM sticks, removing wifi cards and other components as I was baffled about what this fucking blicking LED means when it is not blinking in any way to convey an error code. Removed the CR2032 battery to reset the CMOS. Wondered if my slower than spec DDR3 RAM was causing this, so I went to the trouble of tracking down a RAM stick the precisely matched the specs. Still just got a steady non-stop blink, which the manual falsely states means it’s in sleep mode. So I was ready to conclude that the laptop was trapped in sleep mode and irreparably hosed. Perhaps I would have tossed a working laptop.

Whether it is a good design to protect from incorrect PSUs (despite that the obscure barrel connector is probably only 19.5v systems anyway), most certainly it’s a crappy design to not inform users. To fail to assign an error code. Sure, it vaguely says in the manual something like “use only approved HP power adapters” -- something /smart/ consumers do not take seriously because they know how to match PSUs to appliance and know that shit is always a branding hussle. The data pin should not be a secret that is concealed from both the user guide and the maintenance and service guide (which HP says is not for end users.. yet they still withhold the info from service people).

Perhaps good design as far as the PSU goes. But shitty to not document the situation and to not implement an error code.

¹ I stress /may have/ prevented damage because I have seen a lot of street market goods and only seen this obscure barrel tip on HP and Dell laptops, both of which are 19.5v.

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Cort 2 points 2 months ago

noting that the USB-PD standard did not emerge yet

Doesn't even matter. Asus still pulls this shit on their USB PD laptops and tablets. At the very least they do allow 65w instead of the full 100w if you use another brand's USB PD charger.

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daveyOsborn 2 points 2 months ago

I’m not grasping what you’re saying. What is it that asus is doing on their USB PD laptops and tablets?

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Cort 3 points 2 months ago

Reduced amp draw on non Asus power supplies

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daveyOsborn 2 points 2 months ago

Oh, so to be clear, an asus laptop that expects a USB PD supply can still detect whether or not it’s an OEM charger? And when it’s non-asus, it distrusts the capability and only draws 65w even if the PSU can do 100w?

IIUC, that’s a bit fucked up. I’ve read claims that either USB PD or the proprietary 3-pin predecessors are supposed to be smart enough so appliances can go easy on PSUs that are not up to the full load, but I was expecting USB PD to not have vendor favoritism problems like that. I appreciate the tip. Seems like another gotcha that can even burn above average consumers who know to a reasonable extent what they are doing.

(update) found this

Myth #2: "Original Chargers Are Always Best" Truth: Not anymore.

Many manufacturers use cheap chargers to cut costs. A quality USB PD charger often beats what's in the box.

So I have to wonder if an asus laptop would actually nanny a non-asus PSU that is better than the asus oem psu.

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Cort 3 points 2 months ago

Yes, I believe you understand correctly.

And yes Asus laptops/tablets reject full power charging on any non Asus USB PD PSU, even when the alternative brand is better. I've tried a couple including the 180w framework

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EpicFailGuy 2 points 2 months ago

ahhh, I miss the days of analog power ... these days almost every charger has power negotiation using proprietary protocols. Some more popular than others.

Look it up on youtube, there's a bunch of people that dedicate a shit ton of time to reverse engineer the negotiation phase with an oscilloscope. That's why you can now buy charging modules that convert analog to digital.

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daveyOsborn 2 points 2 months ago

Look it up on youtube

I don’t do youtube, which has descended into a shitshow of Google blocking both Tor and also killing off invideous instances. But I have seen some hacker pages with pics of this hacking. In any case, it’s a mess. It used to be that only dumb consumers got burnt (as they would mismatch voltages). But now smart consumers can get burnt too because even when the levels are good the nannying protectionism cock-blocks.

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UnityDevice 2 points 2 months ago

I bought some hp mini PCs a while ago and they had the 3 pin design. As I understand it the third pin communicates the power output of the supply, so the device can either reject the supply or work in a lower power mode. Luckily though they just use a simple resistor to do the communication, so the fix was to just solder in a resistor on the device side, and then I could use an ordinary laptop supply (with the right connector adapter).

Dell is much worse here. As far as I know their devices use a serial protocol on the third pin, and so it's much harder to bypass it.

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