Difficulty acquiring nutrition is the only semi-valid argument there is against veganism, everything else fails

13 days ago by SeahorseTreble to c/vegan

Does anyone else feel this way?

Seems like the moral animal-focused and environmental cases for veganism and plant based living are just so strong and hard to argue with. Every single argument I've ever seen attempting to refute it is either empirically false (facts and scientific evidence don't align with it) or logically flawed (contradictory, leading to logical fallacies, absurdity, etc).

I'm vegan, and I agree with the science that you can absolutely get all the nutrition you need to thrive as a vegan. And also that if you do ensure adequate nutrition and eat healthy plant foods, then the dietary aspect will likely be healthier than an equivalent animal-based diet.

But I also acknowledge that some people struggle depending on their location, occupation, time, knowledge, access to groceries, budget (although plant foods/products are usually cheaper, not necessarily always), and individual health circumstances.

This really sucks to me, it's like the silver bullet against veganism. I've had to reckon with this. Like, veganism is so colossally important to sentient life, the planet, and even the lives and future of humanity. But at the same time, not everyone can necessarily apply it fully without potential health problems, since unfortunately, we've relied on animals for nutrition, so it becomes mixed up with personal health goals and complications. No other social justice movement that I know of had to really deal with this. Sure, during human slavery abolition, there were boycotts against groceries made via slave labor. And slavery has always been tied to agriculture, whether human or nonhuman. But that mostly focused on sugar or other non-essential resources, and there were usually alternative sources of whatever people actually needed. Or people just bought slave-made goods while still opposing slavery, I guess, if they didn't have a choice (for the people that did heavilh oppose it).

And of course, I think most people can pretty much avoid using animals, and if some people can't completely, that doesn't justify the majority of people doing so. That's the excuse leftists often use, which really frustrates me. Often privileged, abled people using the lack of privilege/ability of some people to justify their own unnecessary corrupt moral choices. (Basically the Fallacy of Converse Accident). It's insanely dishonest and a cop out... BUT those people may exist, who can't avoid exploiting animals entirely, and that is also a sad reality.

I also like to point to a definition or application of veganism, mostly aligned with the Vegan Society's current definition, which is the idea of avoiding animal exploitation and cruelty "as far as possible and practicable" given one's situation. To me this means that literally everyone can be vegan, since if they can't avoid animal exploitation and cruelty entirely, they can still avoid doing it more than they need to and keep it to the bare minimum needed to survive, in extreme situations (which could be ongoing for some people). There's always a "more vegan" and "less vegan" way to live, so to speak. To argue that because we can't avoid it entirely, then we have no obligation to reduce it as far as we can, is I think a nirvana fallacy.

But all this aside, it's just really unideal that there is even a factor of some people being able to put these moral principles into practice fully, or any difficulty doing so. I hope that cultivated meat and precision fermentation animal products, as well as cheaper plant based meats/etc, render these concerns completely irrelevant and obsolete in the future. For now, yeah, anyone making up any other ridiculous argument to justify needless animal exploitation is just lying to themselves. There is one argument and one argument only against veganism, and it still doesn't even hold up most of the time, and it still doesn't justify not being vegan, just not being able to fulfill its ideals fully. That's my take.

kcilc 11 points 13 days ago

I feel the same way. Diet/nutrition arguments are the only ones that have ever given me pause, and it's endlessly frustrating when poeple try to use them as a cudgel to invalidate veganism as a whole.

Like "the Inuit people need to fish to survive! So you can't tell me not to eat this tuna salad."

Come on, the only time that argument works is when you're the one with the dietary restriction whatever it may be.

Another argument I heard that tries to weakly attach itself to diet is "if a piece of land can't support crops, they should farm animals there for local food!" I'm sorry if I'm just a touch skeptical that that land must be productive to support the local population.

I used to be a big meat guy. I absolutely loved it, but as soon as I had to reckon with the realities of animal agriculture and the arguments around it, that was the end of the line.

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Zarobi 6 points 13 days ago

I'm vegetarian and stumbled on this thread. The only thing holding me back from vegan is I would die of malnutrition since my diet is already so heavily restricted due to various other factors.

  • Diabetes requires keto or at least Low GI.
  • My medications and conditions prohibit alcohol. To the point that vanilla essence fucks me up.
  • Gut and digestion issues triggered by commercial sauces or emulsifiers, or just too much fat.
  • Dysphagia makes tricky food like bread and chips scary.
  • MCAS is complicated and histamine liberators can trigger an allergic reaction.
  • Moderately lactose intolerant.
  • Familial hypercholesterolemia means I can't have too much saturated fat or high cholesterol foods.
  • I'm vegetarian for ethical / environmental / textural / other reasons.

The Venn diagram of foods I can safely eat is already tiny. If I cut out Greek yoghurt, cheese, and eggs; I would quickly wither away. I think those are the only few non-vegan foods I still eat, though.

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Ephera 8 points 13 days ago

Yeah, OP is saying that you're excused.

I mean, just to point it out, half the things you list (and which I understand) do suggest that plant-based options would be worth exploring even just health-wise. So, not the vegan meat/cheese/whatever alternatives, but rather proper lentils, beans, nuts etc..
They tend to have a low glycemic index, low fat, rarely any saturated fat, no lactose and no cholesterol.

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lookingforanALFpolycule 3 points 13 days ago

lactose intolerant

yoghurt and cheese

what

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Zarobi 1 point 13 days ago

moderately

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swicano 2 points 13 days ago

I have a buddy whose main source of protein (calories?) basically has to be eggs for similar overlapping dietary restriction reasons, and it seems extremely difficult. Food manufacturers/scientists probably could invent something vegan that satisfies y'alls needs if they put their mind to it, but the size of the market (so to speak) is miniscule, so they don't bother.

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x00z 2 points 12 days ago

But I also acknowledge that some people struggle depending on their location, occupation, time, knowledge, access to groceries, budget (although plant foods/products are usually cheaper, not necessarily always), and individual health circumstances.

Let's jump into it:

location

in North America and Europe it's extremely easy, and those are the non vegans that often claim location issues.

occupation

This one is possible, but it's perfectly doable with 40 hour work weeks like I did when switching.

time, knowledge

It only takes a while to get used to it. You need to learn where you can get your nutrition from, and learn some new recipes. This takes a few months and it can be learned during the change towards veganism.

access to groceries

Same as location.

budget

Like you said, most vegan products are actually cheaper than non vegan products.

individual health circumstances

This is almost always a lie by non vegans. I think the disease where you can only eat meat to get the required nutrients is like 1 in 100 000. Nut allergies are also not that important. I don't really eat much nuts and I'm always perfectly fine on my yearly vitamin checkups.


There’s always a “more vegan” and “less vegan” way to live, so to speak. To argue that because we can’t avoid it entirely, then we have no obligation to reduce it as far as we can, is I think a nirvana fallacy.

That's well said.

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janne_fran_innsbruck 1 point 12 days ago
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juliensueur -14 points 13 days ago

@SeahorseTreble
I Do Like Veganic Philosophy but at the End of the Day, it Doesn't Make Sense to Me, like Everything Else lol.
Because why Should we Care About Our Planet or Animals since They don't Care about us ? And Besides, If you Take it at the Universe Scale, this is Actually Ridiculous.. They Are just "Nothing", like Us.. The Nature is Cruel and if i Want to Survive Being Vegan, i Need to Take Supplements, and Unfortunately I Can not Grow those in my Garden. Respectfully..

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TheDarkQuark 6 points 13 days ago

Lol!

Because why Should we Care About Our Planet or Animals since They don't Care about us ?

I do not think that the planet is sentient, and if you think the same, I do not know how you expect it to care about us.

As for animals not caring about us, how far are you willing to extend this argument?

  • If a person does not care about you, would you find it morally acceptable to kill them?
  • What if they disagree with you, but do not harm you?
  • What if they actively try to harm you?

I would assume you reserve the right to kill for very narrow scenarios. I don't see why you wouldn't extend that same logic to animals.

Clearly, people value people over animals, and that's fine. However, there is a huge leap between the premises and the conclusion.

Just because people are valued more than animals and animals do not care about us, it does not automatically lead to the conclusion, "Therefore, it is acceptable to kill animals." At best, it suggests, "In a scenario where you must either save a person or an animal, you should save the person."

As for the "Nature is Cruel" argument, acknowledgement of the cruelty should not entail normalization and perpetuation of the cruelty. Animals kill and rape each other in the wild. But, as beings with a moral conscience, we know better.

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juliensueur 0 points 12 days ago

@TheDarkQuark
@SeahorseTreble
Thanks for Answering. Understood and I am Not Here for Justifying Killing Animals.. Yes we have a Morality and Maybe that's the Problem.. Have you Ever thought if we Hadn't a Morality like Animals ? We ll probably Make Less Harm or Feel Less Guilt, just Following the Ecological Laws.. Something like This.. Morality Makes us Suffer because we are Tied between what we Invented : Good and Evil.. I Guess Knowing Better with Moral Conscience Implies Specism. And it Means that Animals and Natural Selection Wouldn't Do the "Good" Thing Neither and it's Quite Paradoxal lol
Like I Said, we Are Nothing

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makeshift0546 -18 points 13 days ago

You sound insufferable. Jesus Christ dude, shitup. You ain’t changing people with your lectures 🤣.

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kindnesskills 13 points 13 days ago

You're in the wrong part of lemmy. It's not written to change people, or for you at all. It's written to vent frustration, for people who already understand/agree.

You can block this channel since it's not catering to your interests.

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makeshift0546 -16 points 13 days ago

it’s 2026 and people still think public general purpose forums work this way 🙄

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Soulcreator 7 points 13 days ago

In 2026, on Lemmy there are active communities where men are not allowed to post, and there are communities where if you post a differing political viewpoint you will be banned. I hope you keep that energy for the tankie and feminist communities on Lemmy, at least no one is banning you for posting differing opinions here.

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