Ukraine war: Kyiv claims first victories of counter-offensive - BBC News
3 years ago by gressen to c/worldnews
Hopefully the exodus from Reddit will help drown out the authoritarian-worship here.
Yes, my Russian-sympathizing friends. You can certainly classify the actions of Russia and China as imperialist & bad too, and it will not detract from the imperialist & bad stuff the US or "the West" has done. Most humans can walk and chew gum at the same time, you can too!
Edit: My first downvote here! Looks like there are indeed some people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time :P

Wikipedia's first paragraph is:
Imperialism is the practice, theory or attitude of maintaining or extending power over foreign nations, particularly through expansionism, employing not only hard power (economic and military power), but also soft power (cultural and diplomatic power). Imperialism focuses on establishing or maintaining hegemony and a more or less formal empire.
Russia (and the Soviet Union) has had multiple rounds of imperialism throughout its history. Slicing bits off Ukraine and its continued occupation of parts of Georgia in the modern era certain counts as expansionism. It also exercises cultural power by using state controlled Russian-language media to influence both domestic and foreign populations.
Thanks for that, I was too lazy to respond to him. Glad someone else brought the receipts
It's shit like this that makes this one of the hardest wars to follow. Before that, it was Syria.
The Russian commanders, who were wrong to invade, have learned a lot since the initial invasion. It's the same reason that Assads army was much better after they lost a lot of their soldiers. When you have a lot of your army die, on average, the ones remaining are the ones who managed to stay alive who, again on average, are now much more experienced combat troops.
The Russians did exactly what Ukraine did during the Russian offensive. They pulled back behind their minefields, and then used artillery to drop more mines on the assaulting force that was in the process of clearing mines. This was the same tactic that the Ukrainians used to great success that caused a bunch of Russian tanks to be blown up in columns in Vulhedar.
Remember, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. If the basis of your view of why you think a given side is losing is because you don't like them, then you aren't actually interested in the war. Just in cheerleading your team.
Honestly, I can't understand the strategic goal of how the Ukrainians are running this particular offensive. It truly seems to be to spend as much Ukrainian blood to secure western financial and logistical support. Not to actually gain territory they can hold. At least, that's my best guess with articles like this in the American media: Politico
The two places in Russia that aren't pro-Ukrainian war, are Moscow and St Petersburg.
Putins powerbase is sort of the equivalent to Trump or Erdogan. The people in the larger cities don't like him, but the rural areas love him.
Russophobe because he’s antiPutin and anti-invasion? Tf you smoking tankie
The entire planet according to dronies.

The only coping here is coming from people who think that the fact that Ukraine hasn't even reached the first line of defence in over a week is some kind of a stunning success. To give people some perspective, here's what western media said Ukraine would have to achieve in the first day in order to succeed https://foreignpolicy.com/...
you know it's possible to 'dislike' Russia and at the same time know that they will completely overpower Ukraine, right? you're letting your hatred for Russia blind your understanding of military power and strategy
Yeah the correlation I see is that people who are paying really close attention to the war are most optimistic about Ukraine's chances, relative to the not paying much attention mainstream and the delusional cohort who are getting their news updates from Russian sources.
oh cool, i've found the military understander. so what is Ukraine's strategy here? What does victory look like for them?
In weapons, ammunition, and soldiers Russia outnumbers the AFU, as assessed by any reasonable expert. Russia sees this as a special military operation, not a war. They are comfortable being conservative with their resources and not committing too many at once (which is what they've done so far). Even with this restraint, they are killing Ukrainian soldiers at a higher rate than Russian soldiers are dying. Russia has an army, including reserves, of around 2million soldiers.
Look I hate seeing young men sent into a meat thresher because they are serving the interests of NATO and capitalist interests. I wish the AFU had the courage to not waste the lives of their soldiers and come to the negotiating table so that no more lives are senselessly wasted
I wish the AFU had the courage to not waste the lives of their soldiers and come to the negotiating table so that no more lives are senselessly wasted
What's to negotiate? Russia has seized Ukrainian territory. Ukraine wants it back. There's nothing for Ukraine to concede.
The only side "wasting" lives here is Russia, if they'd just go home the war would be over. Ukraine's not going to try seizing any Russian territory.
Ukraine has the Leopard and the Abrams. The Abrams was made specifically to fight the Soviets. In a weird way it's like the Abrams is "going home".
ISW is one of, if not the most highly regarded military think tanks in the world. They're backing these claims which means it's true.
Ukraine hasn't even used F16s or the Abrams yet and they're still succeeding. Russia is using T-90s, but mostly T-72s. Do you know the last time the M1A1 went up against a T-72? When the US invaded Iraq, the US defeated the Iraqi army within a month.
YOU seem to be the one who has no idea what they're talking about
and how did those tanks perform this weekend? and how many of those tanks are ACTUALLY IN UKRAINE right now? without air support those tanks are sitting ducks and will continue to be destroyed.
ISW was founded by an historian. please tell me you're joking when saying anything they say should be taken seriously. this shit is so easy dude, how do you all get dooped by these people every time.
The reason I know you're talking out of your ass is because the Abrams isn't even in Ukraine right now. You clearly aren't following what's going on in the war.
They're training them in Germany. Similar for the F16s. The Leopards are performing quite well however.
Set your confirmation bias aside. ISW is highly regarded and demoting them to a glorified historian is a gross oversimplification.
lol, Russia can't even overpower a 5 ft 6 inch bald man riddled with amphetamine paranoia. The chances of them overpowering a real army backed by modern technology is about the same as you not accepting the "russia strong" bukkake
Not doing much to combat the tankie reputation
lemmy is written by Marxist Leninist's. Before the blackout on reddit, redditors complained about the tankies on lemmy. The site is lemmy.ml because the ml stands for Marxist Leninist.
This comment is the equivalent of going over to the black mold mansion that was built with black mold framing and black mold windows by black molds hands, and being like "How did the black mold invade this house and take it over"
Mali?
I mean.. to anyone who doesn't know or is interested in who is hosting this instance .ml is just some top level domain. Just like .com or .de or .io this TLD, as you said happens to be the one of Mali. Yet you ask that question as if it's so obvious and react as if people are stupid when they don't reply the "correct" answer...
Kinda toxic ngl.
What I don't get is why Marxist leninists seem to support Russia in this conflict, just because it was ruled by a Marxist Leninist party over 30 years ago. The current Russian regime is just as capitalist as any western government. The only plausible reason to me is that they still see capitalism as synonymous with "the west" even though it is a global system which rules all large nations today.
"Support" is a big word. Most would see it as an inter-capitalist war. One staged and initiated by American imperialism in the region. The end result of which will be the weakening of American imperialism and the emergence of a multipolar geopolitical reality, in which the conditions for socialism are more amenable.
But really this "seem to support Russia" is simply an inability to deal in nuance, much like how libs think criticising Joe Biden equals "support" for Donald Trump.
We don't. Russia is a capitalist country. In some ways, more so than America.
The thing is, the US is not a country. It is an empire. It is the largest empire in the world, and definitely the most powerful. A lot of wars, especially ones in countries with resources valuable to the US or to the US's Allies (most specifically Libya, and Syria, and Yemen) are propagandized to an extent that most Americans have literally no idea about.
We also kill a bunch of people. Like, I know that metrics for evil are hard. Metrics in general are hard. It's hard to know that what you're measuring properly represents what you are trying to measure. But I think the number of people killed over time is a pretty good one. I'm always open to input on that, but most of the time it is simply to defend the current bi-partisan Neo-liberal foreign policy, and not an actual discussion on what is a good quantitative representation of evil.
America kills a lot of people. Like, orders of magnitude more than any other country. Most of the people killed are not killed with military means. Instead America mostly kills people through restricting access to trade with the entire world. It mostly kills civilians through these measures. The genocide in Yemen was done basically with the knowledge, approval, and assistance of the US. When it does kill people in countries that it is in active military campaigns against, it kills people by intentionally destroying all infrastructure in that country. This is excused as being a necessary aspect of war, but it really isn't. It really is a specific tactical doctrine that then also makes the country a lot more easy to control with sanctions after the fact. Not excusing the Russian invasion, which is absolutely wrong, but they are the perfect example of a military doctrine that doesn't destroy infrastructure in the first wave of an invasion. It was interesting because there was a sense of "WTF?" from the American Military, if you looked in the right places. Like "Why the fuck did they not do that? That is basic strategy 101. What the hell are they trying to do?" And, maybe that is a proof that the people who argue that destroying infrastructure has to be the first step in a war. I'm not sure about that. But regardless, it kills far more people than bombs or bullets. And the people that it kills are almost always civilians. And it generally makes the civilians tie themselves to the leaders we're trying to oust. The whole justification of sanctions is to make the civilians rebel against their leaders, and to hurt the leaders. We now know, after multiple decades of experience, that it NEVER works. It hasn't every worked. Maybe you could say Libya, but again, they were destroyed because Macron needed to try and erase loans that he received from Libya. I.e. even when the leader capitulated, it still wasn't enough and France and America started a war there that ended with open-air slave markets in Libya, again.
The Russian-Ukrainian war is being used to justify a lot of fucked up stuff that is going on domestically here. Not only that, but by using sanctions in the manner that we have, I think Biden has permanently broken the American Empires most potent weapon in using sanctions the way he has against Russia. American sanctions are basically just us saying "We won't trade with you, and we won't trade with anyone that trades with you." When EVERYONE trades with America, that is a really powerful threat. But, the more you use that weapon, the weaker it becomes. If you can't trade with anyone if you piss off America, that is a lot scarier than "You can't trade with anyone but Cuba, Venezuela, China, North Korea, Russia, Brazil, India, and South Africa. I've missed some countries, and now some of allies are willing to trade with others assuming that America won't do anything, but you understand my point. The more you use sanctions the less scary and useful they are. Obviously, I think that the American empire needs to be brought down, but there is a huge difference in a soft landing vs a crash.
Finally, Ukraine can't win. Cannot. In fact, I would make the argument from a war goals perspective, Russia is already victorious, no matter what happens from here on out. i.e. it will make a costly victory, into an even more costly victory. Ukraine's already had enough damage done to it that is effectively a dead state. It cannot exist without outside countries basically paying for literally every aspect of the government running. It cannot run on its own anymore. It has no production of its own. On the production issue, when you see articles like "Ukraine was given 6 months of HIMARS, and they used them up in a week and want more" what that really means is that we've given them the total amount of weapons that takes us 6 months to make. There is a reason for that. America makes basically nothing but weapons now. We outsource everything else, and that still hits the production of weapons, and thus even our weapon production systems are slower than countries that valued maintaining internal production systems for their weapons. One of the countries that have done this (For a variety of reasons, some of them not voluntary) is Russia. That is part of the reason of the artillery advantage that Russia has. That and the fact that Iran is basically the king of the drone game right now, but that is completely different side topic. But, if you assume Ukraine can't win, and you have one side continuing to give Ukraine weapons and training and intentionally blow up peace negotiations between the two sides than that makes the country that is propping Ukraine up evil, as well as the country that invaded. Its like if you encouraged a 5 year old to keep fighting with a teenager. A teenager attacking a 5 year old is evil. No question. But, so is the person who keeps comforting and encouraging the 5 year to not make peace with the teenager and encourages them to keep fighting back. Can the 5 year old hurt the teenager and surprise them? Sure. Can the 5 year old win against the teenager? I could make up some scenarios where they do, but it is unlikely enough that you can say no, they never will. I know that this is a bad analogy, but this is already a book, and I think this bad analogy explains the gist of what I'm trying to get across.
I don't know if you've noticed, but the only groups that really care about the Russian-Ukrainian war are America, and Europe. Africa, South America, The Middle East and Asia do not care. The stuff I wrote above is just part of the reasons why.
I know people will say that all of this is whataboutism, but if I truly believe that America is the most evil country as measured by the number of people that die as an intentional direct outcome of America's actions then the focus on Ukraine is nothing but a smoke screen so that people can ignore the much larger numbers of people that die because of our actions. America is very good at killing people in ways that photos don't show that America is responsible for it.
Basically, America is the most destructive evil empires in existence right now, if measured by the number of people intentionally dying of our actions, and if you want that to stop anything that is used to justify Americas foreign policy needs to be dealt with again.
Not a fan of Russia, and I think Russia's biggest crime is invading, as that is what caused all other crimes of this war. Being critical of the US's role of this war is not, and never has been, pro Russian, though. The fact that you think being critical of the US's role in this war is the same of being supportive of Russia should tell you something about how you think about this war. Why do you think it is binary?
Finally, and this is purely personal, I'm a war nerd. The amount of insane propaganda around this war is worse than any other war I've lived though. It makes it both impossible to figure out what is going on, and it causes insane shit like saying this latest Ukraine offense that obviously failed, where most of the NATO trained people died and significant amounts of material was destroyed is a great success. It wasn't. But somehow that is viewed as pro-Russian. It's not, its pro knowing what is going on in a war. But this is a reason that only really applies to me and other war nerds.
Yeah, you’re black mold. Noxious, only able to spread in the absence of honest attention and sunlight, and frankly embarrassing. What are you going to do about it?
What are you going to do about it?
Bully you so much you go crawling back to spez lmao
Lol sure, clown. Come at me bro your bullying game is weak. Meanwhile I get to enjoy watching you and yours get run out of town as the migration continues.
It's not like these old users were not fighting to protect your freedom of speech, by creating an open-source federated social network or anything. Yet you use that same freedom of speech they enabled for you against them on the same platform they created. Everyone here will fight for your right to do so, btw, but I just wanted to point that out.
Lmao you didn’t create shit.
He's gonna keep riding the russian dick train, of course. Choo choo!
Yesterday he was literally defending the Tienanmen Square Massacre. It's unreal.
I understand this is a positive news in the first week of the counter offensive, but to me - it makes me feel depressed.
It makes me look at the size of Ukraine and the occupied areas. There are thousands or probably ten thousands of occupied settlements and villages. Reporting 5 of e.g. 18.000 liberated... it is positive, it is a news, it makes me depressed looking at the scaled of what lies ahead in this war to get Russia out of Ukraine.
The thing I am hoping for and expecting, that this is not a continuous speed. In the past, we have seen Russian lines disintegrate, troops flee in civilian clothing and the front lines moved tens of kilometers within a single day.
I think it's what you said, it is not continuous speed. The offensive may slow down, may accelerate - let's be honest, there is even the chance of failure. However, looking at the last 6-9 months, we should be optimistic. The recapture of a small village may not seem impactful, for people who were born there, lived there until the war or even still live there under Russian oppression - it means the world to them.
The recapture of a small village may not seem impactful, for people who were born there, lived there until the war or even still live there under Russian oppression - it means the world to them.
That's right. There were many examples, but even with the recent ones like destroying dams is clear they don't care about the people, they care about the land. And even ethnic Russians don't want to be under their control.
I understand we're you're coming from but I think that's a wrong way to look at it. The villages and towns rarely are equal in the face of front-line activities - some offer great defense opportunities and can be held for months. Most are strategically unimportant and their freedom is reclaimed by battles fought in other locations. History books are full of small town names that have witnessed grand battles and sometimes a victory over a small patch of land can translate to a much greater victory later on.
Edit: typo
Just remember how Kharkiv oblast was liberated in September 2022. Ukraine made some progress in the weeks before, which put enough pressure on the Russian occupiers to make the continued occupation untenable, so they had to pull back into Luhansk.
Something similar could easily happen here, all it needs is a cirumvention of the defense fortifications to push far enough to disrupt e.g. the supply lines between Donetsk and Crimea, and significant parts of the occupation could crumble quickly.
Ukraine will need to push through the first and second lines of defense, where the Russians are extremely dug in. Once they breech those fortifications it should become like driving a scalpel through Russian defenses.
If they manage to go through the first lines of defense, they'll operationally encircle a lot of Russian positions on the west, either prompting the Russian forces to retreat or get trapped in the pocket.
TL;DR this is the hard part
27k settlements according to a quick search. Yikes.
But progress in anything is rarely sweeping and most commonly a matter of chipping away at an issue one tiny step at a time. Environmental issues, social issues. Unless you're finally hitting a watershed moment it's a depressing battle of inches. But you won't ever get the former unless you commit to the later.
Also, while it's easy to reduce humanity down to numbers at the scale of a war, to the people finally getting to rejoin their country today -- this is the victory that matters. The one they will remember most clearly after the war is over. To us on the outside it might seem small, but to those people it's their entire world.
Hopefully russia crumbles from within. They are doing everything possible to show that this is a battle between "good" and "evil" - the destructin of cities, kidnapping children, rape, castration, civilian deaths from distance and in person.
This will not happen. The reason that you think that is due to the fact that this is the most propagandized wars I've ever seen from personal experience. That heavy amount of propaganda is flowing both ways.
Basically, everything you just described is the natural consequence of war. That's not excusing the Russians, but acknowledging that there are always examples of everything on that list on both sides in basically any war. It doesn't matter if one side causes much more of those things than the other side when it comes to propaganda. All that matters is that both sides have done it. Then, the Russians use that to make their own propaganda. Which they've done. The Russian population honestly also believes that this is a war of good vs evil. To be clear, I'm not saying that it is, just that the Russian population, fed Russian propaganda, believe in this war.
The end result of all of the above words is that the unrest in Russia at this point is due to Russians being unhappy that Putin isn't more aggressive. If Putin is replaced in a coup, the person that replaced him will be more aggressive against Ukraine, not less.
undefined> Basically, everything you just described is the natural consequence of war. That’s not excusing the Russians, but acknowledging that there are always examples of everything on that list on both sides in basically any war. I
Except the Ukrainians aren't intentionally striking civilians, raping, killing soldiers who have surrendered, castrating soldiers - we would have heard about it from the russians (though anything they release has to be treated with suspicion).
The russians appear to want to be labelled as "evil".
And so they will be, except by russian sympathizers, whether they admit it or not.
The Ukrainians have explicitly struck civilians. They've accepted responsibility for some of them and lied about some of the others where the US's intelligence agencies believe that it was the Ukrainians. Fuck, in the recent discord leaks, we discovered that our security agencies don't even know what the truth is with Ukraine because we don't really have intelligence assets with the Ukrainian side, and we know that the Ukrainians lie to us about a lot.
Who used an unwilling suicide bomb to take out a strategic bridge? Who attacked a NATO countries infrastructure in an act of war? Who used a car bomb against a Russian, I don't know, unpopular political figures daughter? The car bomb intentionally killed civilians, and did so intentionally in a civilian area. Dugin is, within Russia, right now, effectively only a pro-war blogger. He doesn't have political power. He also doesn't even have the ear of powerful people, really. But killing him(who was the likely target), a civilian, was apparently worthwhile for the Ukrainians. He and his daughter were civilians.
For the other stuff, the Russians absolutely are saying that that is happening. I agree with you that those claims, coming from the Russians, do need to be treated with skepticism. But you are wrong that the Russians aren't claiming the Ukrainians are doing those things. They absolutely are. The fact that you don't think they are making those claims makes me wonder where you are getting your information from.
So, the worst crime the Russians committed was starting the war. All of their other crimes follow from that first crime. Without it, none of the others would have happened. That is because war itself is evil. It makes good people do horrible things. Don't even think about what it makes bad people do. Every side in every war, has done, and will do what you are saying the Ukrainians haven't done. They have. I'm not saying it is official policy, but that probably isn't true, even for the Russians.
The Russians don't want to be labelled evil. Do you really think that? NO ONE THINKS THEY ARE EVIL. HITLER didn't think he was evil. No. The Russians don't think they are evil, and they don't want other people to think that either. Saying that doesn't require any knowledge about this war, just knowledge about human nature. You want to think they're evil? That is entirely fair. But if you actually believe they think they're evil, that is just stupid.
To be clear, I'm not a Russian sympathizer. As said above, the Russians committed the largest crime possible by invading. Everything else came about because of that. I am a war nerd. It is something I find interesting. Part of the problem with the fucking propaganda for this war is that it makes actually finding out what is happening the most difficult to follow of all of the wars in my lifetime. It also leads to just stupid fucking opinions, like if someone says the Ukrainian offensive is going poorly means that that person is a Russian Sympathizer. Being morally right doesn't mean that everything you do is effective.
Banderite slogan. https://www.dw.com/...
Yeah whatever, it's still a banderite slogan lmao
Quit reddit behavior please. This adds nothing and is not at all useful.
The ones right now (not 70 years ago) defending their country (aka the Ukrainians) from imperialists (russians) who are shelling civilians, kidnapping children, castrating soldiers, raping women. YHave you been keeping up?
you're super and are loved... No need to be the token edgemaster 5000 here.
This was literally what Bandyerites, i.e. fascists that assisted the Nazis and did ethnic cleansing all on their own, used as a rallying cry.
Context is important for meaning.
The nazis used a salute one French painter imagined the Romans using. In the United states kids used to make the same salute to pledge allegiance to the flag. This doesn't make the american kids (nor the Romans) nazis. Becouse the context matters.
Now we see Schrodingers offensive has resolved itself- any success means the offensive is now happening for real and however meek the victories they will be inflated to an appropriate size. I'm sure the Western news and the redditors that lap it up will be just as excited when the offensive grinds to a halt and these villages are retaken
I wish there was a way to block all lemmygrad tankie cretins as an individual account
I don't think the person you're responding to has the capacity to realize anything except their own delusions
People that call themselves communists but support Putin make me sick.
An area amounting to about 6 km by 6 km. Still an excuse for cheerleading and manufacturing consent for escalation. One of the villages is like 6 houses.
never the original aggression…
Ah the Maidan Coup, ya the Ukrainians shouldn't have done that, you're right
Yanukovich, while definitely corrupt, won in a fair democratic election that was judged free and fair by international observers.. The coup overthrew a democratically elected leader. He was not appointed by anyone.
Western liberals keep ignoring anything before 2022 in order to create a black-and-white narrative. This leads them to the conclusion that they're fighting absolute evil and so any means are justified no matter how many people will die, and how dangerous and even counter-productive their actions.
I guarantee you it means something to the residents of those six houses.
It's easy to lose track of individual humanity at the scale of a war, but this victory is the one these people will always most remember when they think of the tide turning. Their lives are worth something.
The summer offensive that has been going on for what? One week? Looking at how fast Russia gained ground in bakhmut, vuhledar, and avdiivka, this offensive is going swimmingly
I would save this comment and get back to you when the offensive has crumbled, but something tells me you and all the other Reddit libs currently swarming this website will have long crawled back to daddy Reddit by then ;)
No they didn’t. They said Slava Ukraïni. Someone else responded with the hero one, but not the person you replied to
Bunch of Redditors hete getting stoked for this war to be down to the last Ukrainian.
You want russia to win? Not enough rape, castrating, stealing children, shelling appartment blocks for you?
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