crazy idea, let's just feed people

3 years ago by rockSlayer to c/leftism

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BertramDitore 120 points 3 years ago

There have been some pretty extensive studies that indicate that when you give poor people money, they become less poor. When you give poor people enough money to live on, they stop being poor. It’s a radical concept, but it’s also the truth.

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unfreeradical 48 points 3 years ago

I read a study arguing that each time someone utters the letters U, B, and I, currency devalues itself by one thousand fold, chunks of the sky rain down on metropolitan centers, and everyone instantly becomes fat, lazy, and uninterested in any activities except playing video games.

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T00l_shed 17 points 3 years ago

Yup I died because you said it, so thanks for that.

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unfreeradical 3 points 3 years ago

If not myself, then someone else. Blame the system, not the individual.

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StalinistTransition 7 points 3 years ago

UBI is pretty bad, but only because capitalists would abuse it. Get rid of the capitalists and we'd be fine

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abraxas 1 point 3 years ago

Without capitalism, we don't really need UBI because we can just go more socialist.

You don't need "more money" if society guarantees your quality of life with no strings attached.

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Anticorp 1 point 3 years ago

I'm fairly confident that corporations would argue that corporations are people, and therefore should get their allotment of UBI at a rate of one full income per stock share, and they'd probably win that argument too, considering the state of our legislature. Then they would argue that actual people getting their share of UBI is harming corporate profits and get UBI cancelled for everyone except the largest corporations. We still have land reaping subsidies not to grow crops from the New Deal, and all that land has made its way into the hands of the wealthy.

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abraxas 0 points 3 years ago

There are real risks of a badly-designed UBI, and it unfortunately locks us more into capitalism instead of less, but innovators giving up on innovation is not one of them.

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unfreeradical 5 points 3 years ago

A badly designed instance belonging to any class may be bad, regardless of the class.

I advocate for UBI, and also, I advocate for UBI that is not badly designed.

Whether the working class seeks to leverage its advantages to depose capital depends on the will and resolve of workers as a class, but in the meantime, advocating against saving, improving, and empowering workers is some combination of apologia and accelerationism.

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Wogi -4 points 3 years ago

To be clear, I have no issue with most people working while others do not and live off the system. I think most people will still want to do that something.

UBI isn't going to do that.

You can point to a handful of small scale studies that show more money works, and yes, on a small scale that is exactly what you'd expect to happen.

This does not work when everyone has that same income. It's not a matter of 99% of people making smart choices, because I concede that the vast majority of people with sudden access to additional income would spend it wisely.

The issues are twofold.

A) when the people who've made it their career to suck every penny out of every possible person know that there are suddenly more pennies to be had, they're going to raise prices. It's frankly foolish and shortsighted to expect prices to remain the same or only raise a little. This issue is not raised with small scale experiments. So regardless of their obvious success, they're not telling the whole story.

2). UBI does absolutely nothing to address the problems it's actually trying to solve. All it does is print a check every month as a bandaid for some serious problems that will certainly persist. You can't fix housing without building housing. Individual healthcare will still be tied to your job. College education will be prohibitively expensive and require staffing a lifetime of debt, and we'll still throw away an obscene amount of food, and people will still go hungry. The only thing that will probably get better is more children will have a secure diet.

And none of that assumes prices would inflate the way they absolutely will. Because even if UBI happened, the people who want all the money the working class has aren't suddenly going to think it's ok to leave dollars unspoken for.

The cost of college will steadily increase by about the amount kids are expected to have been able to save by the time they get there. Rent prices will go up to accommodate the new found freedom of spending. And that's the stuff you have a choice on. You think Comcast will see people with so many extra dollars a month and think "well our customers don't have another option but we'll let them keep all that money?"

UBI is just a ticket to absolute dependency on a government check for 99% of Americans, and less financial freedom.

Address the actual problems, don't just slap a half baked bandaid on it

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unfreeradical 17 points 3 years ago

The claim of UBI leading to runaway inflation is a myth given by reactionary propaganda.

UBI would represent a major advance for the working class. Advocating against it seems impossible to reconcile with any attitude that is not accelerationist.

Much of your commentary seems to reproduce mythical tropes such as of the "welfare queen".

Seeking meaningful contribution to society is a robust human tendency. Doing so under constant threat from greedy employers is not necessary.

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31337 7 points 3 years ago

I would think UBI would be implemented to track inflation. I also assume it would be funded by progressive taxes, not just spinning up the printing presses (which would cause inflation). Effectively, it would be a wealth redistribution program cycling money from corporations and the rich down to the poor.

I really don't trust the government (which is pretty much captured by corporations) to implement it well though. They'd probably give everyone just enough money to barely survive, without health care, in a van down by the river or something.

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abraxas -1 points 3 years ago

If you check my post history everywhere, I'm pretty anti-UBI. But the reasons you pitched are both problematic to me.

You "A" point... I don't like capitalism, but when there isn't a monopoly, increased customer-base doesn't have the effect you're thinking without scarcity. More people able to afford more means more businesses can compete for business. The price increases would come from paying for the increased worker leverage, and those wouldn't be drastic.

The opposite effect is true in some sectors. Studies suggest (consistently) that UBI cause so-called "wealth-flight", which reduces the value of housing and reduces the cost of living... But also reduces quality of life by reducing availability of things. The thing is, a little bit of socialism would counteract wealth-flight, as would a situation where the wealth is not in a position to leave freely.

Your "2" point is false. There are a lot of MAJOR cons to UBI, but studies suggest UBI would have a positive effect on housing affordability and worker leverage. Other than healthcare, your concerns don't seem to match the models and the studies. My add-on concern, however, is addiction. Poverty starvation isn't a risk under most UBI plans, but addict starvation still is.

When "what can I afford to pay" is one of the dominant market forces on anything but luxury, capitalism becomes dangerously fragile and businesses know it. They want to maximize profit, but they do so against demand and competition.

And none of that assumes prices would inflate the way they absolutely will

Most economists don't think UBI would cause all that much inflation. Increasing a customer-base is not the same as increasing demand. There's no addition of scarcity. Food prices don't go up if we don't run out of food - and we have so much food going to waste that isn't going to happen. Same with housing and rent. The question isn't "how much can the sucker afford to pay me", it's "how much can we get for this?". Affordability is only one factor in that, and generally considered a "problem" to all parties when that factor applies. So long as businesses are not MORE consolidated (see above UBI concerns) prices are still market-driven - driven by competition and acceptability.

It's valid to not LIKE capitalism. I hate it. But we should still understand it before criticizing things.

The cost of college will steadily increase by about the amount kids are expected to have been able to save by the time they get there

This is simply not factual. One thing people miss is that college profit margins have been on a slow decline (and in the single-digits since 2016). They're NOT charging more based on how much they think they can sucker out of people. They're charging what they do based on the friction of "making enough money to thrive" and "charging low enough that people are willing to come here". Yes, cost of college might go up slightly, but not in the way you're talking. Again, the issue is that "affordability" is a terrible market force and rarely the one these types of businesses care about.

UBI is just a ticket to absolute dependency on a government check for 99% of Americans, and less financial freedom

There is no study or model that says UBI will give us LESS financial freedom. The real argument is that it won't give more financial freedom to most Americans, and the cost is prohibitive for that limited gain.

Address the actual problems, don’t just slap a half baked bandaid on it

Short of "no questions asked unemployment benefits for life", there aren't really any solutions to many of the problems on the table. Ultimately, all Americans, all humans, deserve a life of all necessities AND some luxuries.

At this time, nobody is seriousliy trying to solve for luxuries except UBI, and nobody is seriously trying to solve for organic worker-leverage except UBI (unions will never be the full answer).

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