That post seems to be missing.

SnailMagnitude 88 points 3 years ago

And now that we've heard from an expert in the field, for balance let us now give equal attention on the matter to a moron who is in no way qualified to comment.

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Bizarroland 9 points 3 years ago

There is a reason why in courts of law, experts that are called on to testify over facts in front of people who are not experts on the fact have to bring their curriculum vitae and their resume and provide sources to prove how they are experts in this field.

Because I know I can talk about just about any topic and sound like I know what I'm talking about when I really don't and if I can do it I'm willing to bet half the rest of the world could do it too.

I would love to actually see debates between experts in the field on topics that I know little about but I don't know a good place to find that kind of quality content.

Like here's a good one, how does magnetism work?

Like, I'm cut above some people in that I understand that it has to do with the field alignments of the electrons in ferromagnetic particles, and how when those particles are in the correct alignment the electromagnetic fields of each individual atom end up amplifying each other, standing on the shoulders of giants, one wave sitting on top of another wave sitting on top of another wave where their peaks keep adding up.

Great. I got that much.

But what is it about that that causes them to draw one another together? What is it about them that causes them to induce electron movement and electromagnetic braking force in semi-ferromagnetic materials? I don't know. I would love to hear experts tell me the things that I don't know about and to tell me where the current points of disagreement are based on the best measurements that we've been able to take so far but I do not know where to go to find that information.

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SnailMagnitude 10 points 3 years ago

Richard Feynman explains it with perfectly clarity for the layman here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO0r930Sn_8

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slackassassin 5 points 3 years ago

If you pay close attention, Feynman modestly states that magnetism is a fundamental force that is not well understood. He can only tell you that it exists as fundamental force, the roots of which are the origins strong nuclear interaction. He also says that the relationship between gravity and electromagnetism is also unknown.

He does a great job explaining it and he is super honest. All of which to say, ICP was right all along.

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SnailMagnitude 2 points 3 years ago

Yeah, The Insane Clown Posse turned out to be right about most stuff tbh.

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fossilesque 6 points 3 years ago

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TwistedTurtle 41 points 3 years ago

If he really wanted a fair debate he'd do it in a properly moderated forum like Intelligence squared. Or better yet a written debate where both sides could properly research their responses and provide sources.

What he wants is to Gish Gallop a scientist in a friendly environment with an idiot moderator that couldn't fact check his way through a 3rd graders homework.

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deepblue 4 points 3 years ago

I'm rubbish at speaking fluently. If I had to try defending that the sun rises every day I'd still probably lose in a verbal debate. The fluency of someone's speach, or more often, how loudly they can talk over someone is not a reflection of the strength and quality of their arguments.

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ImplyingImplications 38 points 3 years ago

If Joe Rogan wants to debate science he can publish some of his research. That's how it works.

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fossilesque 39 points 3 years ago

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Tammo-Korsai 10 points 3 years ago

Peer-reviewed by the YouTube Medical University and Facebook Med School.

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fossilesque 8 points 3 years ago

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CIWS-30 34 points 3 years ago

I'd like to have a "debate" about whether Joe Rogan is an alien pedophile zombie. Is he? Has anyone shown any real evidence contradicting this? Who knows what he's doing behind closed doors? I don't, can you really say for sure that you do either?

I'm not accusing him of anything, I'm just asking questions. I'm just tryin to have a conversation here.

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fossilesque 27 points 3 years ago

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CamilleMellom 13 points 3 years ago

I mean, there is no smoke without fire right? It’s literally impossible that all of those people say this and there is no truth behind it even if just 50%, right? I don’t know anything about it, so I’m not accusing him of anything but you have to admit it’s weird! Why would people say this if it’s not true. And don’t tell me the « experts » are saying it’s not true, they are all biased with a vested interest… unlike all those random ass people saying he is a pedo. Really makes you wonder, but I’m not an expert so I’m not directly accusing him, I’m just asking the question because I’m a coward…

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notsofunnycomment 4 points 3 years ago

Look at what happens when you ask DallE to create an image of Joe Rogan as an alien pedo zombie.

If this not a clear case of deep state censorship then I don't know what is. And the cover-up goes all the way up to OpenAI and Microsofoft. They clearly don't want us to know the truth.

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CamilleMellom 2 points 3 years ago

Did you also realize that if you shuffle the letters it spells « how Rogan is a pedo alien »? 🤯

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WheeGeetheCat 30 points 3 years ago

From the article, reasons debate is poor method to arrive at truth about scientific concepts:

false equivalence: in this case, it suggests there’s as much good science to support avoiding vaccines as there is to support getting vaccinated — when in fact, the scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports vaccination safety and effectiveness.
audience disincentivizes changing your mind: debate disincentivizes participants from changing their minds. A debate’s performative aspect means its participants are rewarded for doing what best preserves their public image. For people whose public identity is strongly tied to holding specific beliefs, that means standing their ground — not learning something new, which they may see as signaling to their audience that their identity is on shaky ground.
audience incentivizes drama: debate incentivizes debate participants to do whatever it takes to draw in and retain an even bigger audience. “You want drama, you want something that people are going to click on and be like, ‘Oh, my god,’” said Limaye. The interior process of learning isn’t the most likely thing to elicit that response; debate highlights are far more likely to include snappy retorts than thoughtful murmurs. A participant who scores points off the other guy is most likely to gain followers and fame.

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FlyingSquid 28 points 3 years ago

What is really driving me crazy about this whole situation is that people keep calling Peter Hotez, a man who helped develop a patent-free, easy-to-manufacture vaccine so poor countries can protect their people from COVID and he's being accused by Rogan bros of being in the pocket of "Big Pharma." How the hell do major pharmaceutical companies benefit from a patent-free vaccine?

Hotez should be hailed as a hero. Instead, he's being dragged through the mud because he won't get into a shouting match with RFK Jr. on Rogan's show.

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rhacer -21 points 3 years ago

This Peter Hotez? https://youtu.be/Sj6-QDVYbv8

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FlyingSquid 8 points 3 years ago

What exactly do you want me to glean from that video?

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rhacer -20 points 3 years ago

Well first that it appears he speaks with authority when he's got no clue. The number of times he changed his story was significant.

Second, who do you believe benefited every time the expert spoke and said "you need another shot"?

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FlyingSquid 16 points 3 years ago

Sorry, you think he has no clue when it comes to vaccines? Again, he makes them.

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WheeGeetheCat 13 points 3 years ago

Do you understand that the patent-free aspect of it means that he did not in fact benefit every time someone needs a shot?

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SnailMagnitude 2 points 3 years ago

Thanks.

That's a pretty much perfect example of the point in the OP article.

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Porcupine 28 points 3 years ago

He's still going on about vaccines? Most antivac folk I know have fucked off to their echo chambers. Or died.

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Zirconium 5 points 3 years ago

I haven't spent time with my mother in a while but I bet she will still insist that my brother got poisoned by the vaccine

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kilkil2 2 points 3 years ago

Or died.

rip

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crowlemo -33 points 3 years ago

Or maybe, you're in your echo chamber after they banned any dissent.

We didn't die for not taking an unnecessary COVID-19 vaccine, nor did Novak, but hey, keep celebrating a disgusting narrative because the gov told you to dehumanize "your enemy"

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sin_free_for_00_days 20 points 3 years ago

I don't know what the hell is going on in the minds of people like you. There is a fucking ton of data documenting unvaxxed idiots dying at a much higher rate than vaccinated idiots. It's like talking to flat earthers or something.

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Porcupine 4 points 3 years ago

This. I'm not pushing a disgusting narrative. Literally every vaccinated person I know survived the pandemic. Of the few anti-vac people I knew, three died of COVID. What's disgusting is that antivac propaganda costed them their lives.

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bobthened 8 points 3 years ago

Nonsense conspiracy theories aren't dissent. Banning people who spread dangerous mis/disinformation from a given platform is not the same as banning people who have different opinions.

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crowlemo 0 points 3 years ago

Conspiracy theories mean nothing at this point. Misinformation means whatever the gov, health corp or tech corp says it is.

And when the "misinformation" turns out to be true it's promptly ignored and the goalposts are moved or narrative reframed.

The absolute human rights abuses perpetrated in the name of covid policies while politicians where following none of the BS they imposed unto others was staggering.

But hey, that's not even arguing about the harms of lockdowns, the inefficacy of Vaccines, the violence of enforcement and encroachment of civil rights, the total lack of debate, which you and other authortiarians.happily push. The calls for death, harm and even camps for those who dissented.

The dehumanization and censorship in a dark period of history. Many regret their absolutely support but there's still plenty of fanatics like you who want to keep the blinders on.

Obviously, a place like this who deems itself left but it's only in name and not in practice, will claim that crushing authortiarianism for the greater good is exactly what the doctor (pun intended) ordereded.

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Shit 4 points 3 years ago

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NormalTownLeader 24 points 3 years ago

Politics aside, why debate Joe Rogan about vaccines? He's not a scientist, he's an entertainer. I don't get my medical advice from a person without trained medical knowledge. I wouldn't take mechanical advice from someone who's not a mechanic or works heavily with cars in their freetime, that's how you can mess up your car. Why would this be different? People need to stop giving his opinions so much value when he has zero related education/experience to back them up...

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Strangle 6 points 3 years ago

You misunderstood, due to the headline. Joe Rogan doesn’t want to debate, he wants to setup a debate.

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FlyingSquid 11 points 3 years ago

Rogan doesn't want to set up a debate. There won't be an impartial moderator or uninterrupted statements and rebuttals. As Hotez says, Rogan wants the Jerry Springer Show. That's what gets him listeners. A formal, dry debate about science is not something RFK Jr. is capable of or Rogan is interested in.

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Strangle 2 points 3 years ago

You asked

why debate Joe Rogan

That’s not what this is. Keep it on topic, you thought Joe wanted to debate someone

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NormalTownLeader 2 points 3 years ago

Ah, that's what I get for skimming!

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Sharpiemarker 21 points 3 years ago

Why would you want to have a debate with someone who clearly knows almost nothing about science?

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SnailMagnitude 17 points 3 years ago

Seems harsh. I bet Joe & Robert both more know a lot more about the science of 5th dimensional reptilian vaccines than Mr Fancy Pants Ph.D.

Go on then so called "vaccine expert" , disprove the NWO for the audience if you are so smart.

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Sharpiemarker 1 point 3 years ago

LMFAO thank you for the laugh. I'll keep Joe in mind when Ted Cruz and the reptilian race take over the Earth.

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fossilesque 16 points 3 years ago

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C126 21 points 3 years ago

A debate? How about settle this like scientists and conduct competing peer reviewed studies testing the hypothesis?

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kilkil2 6 points 3 years ago

unfortunately that would require time, effort, money, and actually giving a shit.

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TonyTonyChopper 4 points 3 years ago

Let alone the years of education and training Joe would need to contribute to this

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chicagohuman 18 points 3 years ago

How about a debate on logical fallacies?

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x86x87 3 points 3 years ago

You cannot argue with idiots

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TWeaK 18 points 3 years ago

A fair sided debate between a scientific expert and a sensationalist idiot.

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wintex 17 points 3 years ago

If anyone wants a scientific view on every statement made by RFK Jr on JRE, look no further: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sugCJNAPF9o

Dr Wilson has been a fuckin trooper for so long to fight against misinformation, and the video is really good.

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b1_ 13 points 3 years ago

News flash: vaccine science is not controversial! We just have idiots and bad actors running the narrative atm.

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blindbunny 12 points 3 years ago

Who remembers him having a "debate" with Dr. Carnivore and random athlete that was vegan because his trainer convinced him. Fucking ridiculous waste of everyone's time, listeners included. The funniest thing about Joe Rogan is his career because his comedy sure isn't.

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prtm 10 points 3 years ago

If he wanted a fair debate on that topic he should probably be the last one to participate lol

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Randy_Bobandy 9 points 3 years ago

The only thing that debating nutjobs like Rogan accomplishes is legitimizing their lunacy.

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niktemadur 8 points 3 years ago

Ignore that willfully-ignorant, idiotic toxic meathead. Don't give him any more misguided perception of legitimacy in the public sphere. Not a shred more.
Please, don't bite the hook, you WILL empower him. You cannot win, and he cannot lose, in the minds of his horde of dittoheads.

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Grant_M 0 points 3 years ago

100%

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JuzoInui 6 points 3 years ago

Never cross swords in the Devils house, for he will always have the upper hand. Let Joe go argue with his reflection in some mirror. That way he can be of equal standing

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MechaWill 4 points 3 years ago

Lol I'm sure he'd find some way to come off ignorant even when he's talking to himself

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adinfinitum 6 points 3 years ago

Sure, scientists have to go to school for years and dedicate their lives to their field of expertise, but Joe Rogan found a blog that says vaccines have 5G-powered nanobots that kill your gains and send your biometrics to Bill Gates or something equally nonsensical, so who's to say who's the real expert?

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Pagliacci 5 points 3 years ago

Why is a one-on-one in person debate an appropriate venue for medical research?

At the end of the day this is just people who are good at talking wanting to talk and a person who makes money from people talking wantimg them to talk. Truth is not a motivating factor in their calls for debate, it's entirely based in self interest.

Nobody owes them to go play their game. If they're interested in this topic they're free to get involved in research and get studies published.

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RedditExodus 4 points 3 years ago

I love Joe Rogan as an MMA announcer, as a stand up comedian, and as a cast member on News Radio but as a science denier he's not very much fun.

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SCmSTR 4 points 3 years ago

Rogan must have a big dent in his skull or something

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divingaround 3 points 3 years ago

From his alma matter, the School of Hard Knocks.

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sock 2 points 3 years ago

its crazy that theyre still going on about the vaccines causing all these things that have no evidence. damn

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LizardKing15 1 point 3 years ago

Have Lex Fridman debate actual vaccine scientists. I could listen to it before bed over the course of the 10-11 month lol

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walkwalkwalkwalk 1 point 3 years ago

So true lol

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instamat 1 point 3 years ago

I will just leave this here https://youtu.be/gSwvFErFU8A

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chickenwing -3 points 3 years ago

I don't like articles like this. Like it or not Rogan has a big audience and scientists shouldn't be afraid to explain things to your average person. Robert Kennedy is getting antivax people riled up and it would be a good time to counter that. If every scientist decides to boycott Rogan it will just embolden crackpots.

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Grant_M 23 points 3 years ago

Rogan is himself a propaganda pusher and chaos operative. Discussion is impossible on his platform.

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chickenwing 6 points 3 years ago

Rogan is a conspiracy prone bonehead. He normally is receptive to anyone who comes on his broadcast and sounds halfway convincing. He will listen to scientists and people who believe that Atlantis was real. But if only kooks and cranks go on his podcast then he and his big audience will say that the scientists must be hiding something. Why won't they defend their views yada yada.

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Grant_M 16 points 3 years ago

I disagree. Truthful professionals and serious experts only serve to legitimize him and his platform by participating.

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FlyingSquid 4 points 3 years ago

When Art Bell used to do this sort of thing, most people would just dismiss him as the kooky guy who let nuts on the air. Fun to listen to, but don't take it seriously. And the only people who did take it seriously were the sort of nuts he put on the air anyway. Somehow, Rogan has a legitimate and massive audience that buys into all of the bullshit and he isn't even all that nice. At least Art Bell was an overtly nice guy.

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Hikermick 3 points 3 years ago

Conspiracy theories used to be fun. You would get them on a late night AM radio station or a shady looking pamphlet. Now there's a new one nearly everyday on a top rated cable "news" station. Took the fun out of it all

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sin_free_for_00_days 3 points 3 years ago

The one time I listened to Art Bell, he was on the only station I was receiving in my big rig, pulling a trailer across Wyoming. It so happened to be New Year's Eve, 2k. It was so weird peering through the little cone of my headlights, listening to callers expecting the end of civilization while describing all the precautions they had made. Midnight started rolling across the timezones and there was just amazement that shit wasn't stopping, power stations were still working, etc.

I had heard his name before, but never spent any time listening to him. He did seem pretty good natured about it all. Dumb ass Rogan just sounds like a dumb ass.

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fossilesque 18 points 3 years ago

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bobthened 16 points 3 years ago

A debate would not be at all productive though. Firstly it would give credibility to the antivaxx side, make it seem like it was roughly as credible as vaccine science. Secondly (and more importantly) Debates as a format are heavily biased towards whoever can blurt out the most talking points as quickly as possible – it takes a long time to deconstruct and debunk misinformation and by the time you've finished taking apart one thing your opponent has already spewed out 25 other lies. By the time the debate has ended the scientist will not have had time to take apart everything the anti-vaxxer said, and will therefore seem like they lost the debate.

The best thing to do is to not engage in their debates.

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FlyingSquid 10 points 3 years ago

Exactly right. People on his side seem to think that RFK Jr. is somehow entitled to a debate. He isn't. Someone else in this thread even implied (if I understood them correctly) that it was somehow a violation of free speech to refuse to debate him. Just craziness.

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hawkwind 11 points 3 years ago

I used to like Joe. I went to a stand-up show way back when. I laughed. I do not like Joe anymore.

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fossilesque 16 points 3 years ago

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WheeGeetheCat 6 points 3 years ago

Hahaha same here buddy. Although Joey Diaz was the highlight of the standup set for me. Joe was ok.

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Beegzoidberg 4 points 3 years ago

But, the article mentions that the vaccine scientist would go on his show. He refused to have a debate, which doesn't sound productive at all.

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stochasticity 2 points 3 years ago

The whole Rogan thing is fascinating. He's such a shiity interviewer.

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grey -3 points 3 years ago

I can't imagine being a fully grown adult and warning everyone away from having public debates on things. This is how things are supposed to work.

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TwistedTurtle 7 points 3 years ago

It's all about the forum. Public debate in a fair and properly moderated forum like Intelligence squared = legit. Debate hosted by him on his podcast = bullshit that would do more harm than good.

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Brahm1nmam 7 points 3 years ago

not how science debates work though, scientists don't get on stage to defend their "stance" on something. They write a paper containing all of their hypothesis and the tests they use to test said hypothesis and the conclusion of what exactly those tests prove. Debate has very little place in the real of science, because science actually is black and white. Something is true or false and has defined values that cannot be debated away.

Edit: When a scientist doesn't believe what another scientist has purported to be true, it is then his responsibility to evaluate the testing methodology and either find a test that disproves the first guy's theory, or a way to prove that his tests simply didn't prove what he says they did.

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auntbutters 8 points 3 years ago

Yeah, the term "science debate" is almost an oxymoron. The scientific method is all about designing experiments that minimize bias to get at objective truths about the world. The end results are not opinions to be presented on a debate stage.

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IverCoder 5 points 3 years ago

Encouraging others to not waste their time arguing qith stupid people is what an adult is expected to do.

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