I'm starting to realize that even in the localized leftist communities we're involved, we need to start creating spaces where men can freely talk about these issues in a leftist environment. Unfortunately, we don't have much power to be open with it in our own communities due to how they'll react. Even more dangerous when they're brainwashed by ideas of men that make them automatically distrustful of men, even at the start.

1. The patriarchy has never existed in north American history. Most of the gendered oppression have been caused by the monarchy, specifically coverture practices. We had kings and queens (both of whom who have equal powers to create laws before it got taken away). You're also using the apax fallacy to judge men as a whole by the actions of a few men and women in power who are in the minority. The only reason we consider it a patriarchy is due to patriarchy theory (most positions in power are held by men, therefore men oppress women) which is not only rooted in apax fallacy, it's designed to encourage misandry on a societal level.

2. Feminism has never been about equality. Many 'proto-feminists' such as Mary Wollstonecraft who actually written books about the rights of women and men never called herself a feminist. It was academic feminists from 1848 and onwards who claimed them as such. The ideology of feminism where it classifies men as the oppressor class of women (thanks Elizabeth cady staton) and developing concepts such as the patriarchy theory (kate miller, andrea dworkin and the like) that IS misandry, yet it gaslight everyone into thinking it's about equality.

"Men saying "it's not fair" rings hollow when men have been oppressing women for millennia, and all women want is to be treated equally." Rich people in power have been oppressing everybody else for millennia of history, it just shows up differently based on gender. That's how these things have always been.

@RoquetteQueen By this logic, men should also be included and endorse women on apps like this as they deal with women who make false allegations against them (and don't give me this 2% nonsense as it doesn't include unreported incidents), are just a likely to be abusive to their bfs, and even rape them. But on all accounts, no gender should be doing this. We're not products for review, and treating men and women in this manner is very dehumanizing.

I never said men rape and murder women due to the expectation to make the first move, that's absolutely absurd. But this app claims to reward men for "good behaviour." This is very vague and it does tie into "men expected to initiate" as we still live in a society that expects this from us, including feminists. But if our innocent gesture of flirting is gonna make someone uncomfortable just from showing sexual interest alone (just expressing sexual interest in an appropriate manner, not inappropriate behaviour), then that potentially becomes sexual harassment.

As for the guy thinking woman is 'leading him on'. Guys don't get compliments since they're expected to go up to her than the other way around. So when they do get a compliment from women, those emotions can be intense. So when he finds out she never meant anything more than that, it flips his world. Though in this case he could learn to manage his emotions so he can receive compliments well.

I heard their experiences before and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to act this way. I do think there's a vicious cycle at play that's making it happen. We've done a lot to free women from their traditional role, but we didn't do the same for men. Instead, we just said "oh since we freed women from their oppressive role, then it should obviously apply to men as well" not realizing that they had strong advocacy for the former but not the latter, which lead to society still having men conform to their expected gender role in the modern times.

We tell guys to be sensible and not bother them randomly, yet we also tell them that if they like a girl, they need to tell her. They're taught that if they don't do something, another guy will and he'd lost out on his chance. We set up dynamics where guys are told (either by society's words or actions) that if he doesn't take action and make the approach, then he won't get a date, laid, or a relationship. So they feel the pressure to take action. Because they feel this pressure, and mainstream society has just given them passive advice, they turn to alternative communities which will give them the practicality. That being the PUA/TRP. So they get practible dating tips, but also getting a lot of toxic ideology about women as well. It also doesn't help that there are some women out there referring to other guys saying "They're good with women" (I hate this phrase a lot actually) so hearing those words only reaffirms his perceived failures as a mate.

Because of what they're taught by PUA/TRP, they react poorly to simple rejections from women due to society telling them that their value is tied to how successful they are sexually. "She rejected you because she saw you as low value" "She likes a confident masculine man, not a weak feminine beta" "You're a nice guy, any woman would be lucky enough to have you" "She rejected you, you need rizz bro" "You're too nice and she didn't feel that confidence from you, you need to be more aggressive". It also doesn't help when these messages get reinforced when they see other guys who are genuinely confident and masculine at their core with a woman who enthusiastically enjoys his company. They are gonna associated this experience with the ideology they've been taught.

Guy gets mad a you for rejecting him? He interprets this as her saying he's not alpha or valuable enough for her (Thanks Redpill). Following her to a store is very reprehensible, but I'd also say it links back to the expectations as well. Someone grabs your butt at a concert? Maybe that guy thinks that's how you be an alpha and show her you're a 'sexual being' so she doesn't see you as a platonic friend. This doesn't excuse the guys behaviour, many of them are very reprehensible.

This isn't new. PUA/TRP likely doesn't exist in third-world countries, but gender roles are very much active there, and I do hear stories of guys attacking women over rejecting them.

Nobody is blaming women for the expectations, they weren't the ones who set it up. Maybe some women helped set it up, just like men did. But I think as long as we as a society don't actively fight to free men from the role of the pursuer, they're gonna feel the pressure to take action, and it'll result in more women being uncomfortable with guys approaching them, not being able to take rejection well.

Now you are right that most of the things you've listed don't rise to crimes. But there are a lot of women who have said they're afriad of men due to not wanting to be raped and murdered, which while that fear is very valid, it isn't statistically common as I mentioned in the previous replies, which never meant you can't exercise caution. However, with the situations you've laid out, they're very common for women to experience them and it doesn't need to rise to a level of a crime, which doesn't make it any less uncomfortable for them anyways.

This explanation isn't me trying to excuse these guys behaviour. Because they've learned it, they need to unlearn these behaviours to ensure we make women feel safe, I am all for that. But we also have to remember guys were put in a position where they feel they have to learn and do this stuff, so to ensure we don't have a large number of guys going up to make women feel uncomfortable (which still happens), we need to start telling society not to conform men to these roles and not make them feel pressured to be the pursuer all the time, tying his success to that, and finding self-worth through other means. And after we've reached a place where women and men are free from their gender role, come up with rules for a more safer courtship, allowing men and women to take initiative with the people they're interested in.

P.S I had a much more thought out reply before the redirection delete my entire message, so if this one comes off differently here, I do apologize. I was trying to remember things I've written out that time before it got deleted.

I don't know much about Jordan Peterson. I had help from other figures before I discovered peterson personally. Aba and preach I've seen a lot of their channels and I like how nuanced they are with their takes. Of course I don't agree with all of them, but they were the first dudes who got me on the right mental track.

It does feel like it sometimes. But that too is also something that men deal with as well, especially when feminist have dismissed our fears of false allegations using the 2% conviction, even though that too causes very serious trauma. I've even seen counter articles saying they got nothing to worry about, but 2% only represent cases that have been resolved, not the reported yet unresolved cases nor does is count the unreported incidents. By this logic, should men start treating women the way women have been treating men? Should men start viewing every woman as a potential liar who's out to accuse him of rape and SA? There's a reason men are going mgtow and avoiding interaction with women altogether. This is also something I don't agree with as it's just going to heighten the fear of a demographic.

Having statistics of victims killed in IPV would certainly be very valuable information (tho I think that would be classified under severe abuse, maybe that category needs to be broken down).

A societal push we need to establish is to actively send a message to society not to conform men to the male gender role. We've done a lot for women not to be confined in their own gender role, but then we just think "well if women aren't confined to their gender role then obviously men aren't as well" but there's a larger focus on the former than the latter, causing male stereotype to be strong even in the modern age. This is very important as because men trying to fulfill their gender role are likely the ones to go out approaching women on the street and trying their luck. I remember watching a street harassment video where a man explains why he does it, which was along the lines of showing her he's the man, that you gotta show her persistence, etc. This kind of thinking is not inate to any man. They're being taught by PUA/TRP that they need to do these things to reach the pinaccle of masculinity. But keep in mind PUA/TRP is rising cuz we as a society have never actively fought for men to step away from their gender roles, we just left them on their own to "they should figure out that also applies to them". This premise doesn't cover the more serious crimes such as murder, rape or SA I think in those cases serious mental issues are involved. But if we're talking about a woman's day to day experience with dealing with men coming up to her, then this is caused by society still telling men they gotta fulfill their gender role, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And a note about police. I think everyone has to remember is that police are a 3rd party. They need to collect all information first before they could do anything. Unfortunately, we humans have a natural tendency to get spooked during very stressful events that we can forget to document it and ensure the perpetrator gets bought to the police. Add in the fact that criminals are smart enough to cover their tracks to not get caught, and you can see why bringing perps to the police is hard. A lack of concrete information usually makes their job harder. Sure we can go to the police and report the incident, but for them to actually pursue the case further, you'd have to be able to capture not only the perpetrator appearance and information, but also where they escaped to and if they dropped a trail.

What about my advice bit is patronizing?

@Woozy A person who isn't a misandrist nor a misogynist

"They're operating under a worldview that's outdated an unrealistic" buddy is this really the takeaway?? It's not outdated if that expectation is still there. Also you brought up abusive men. Men don't need to go out approaching women and then become abusive from that. It's about gaining and maintaining control, which wasn't what I was talking about. I'm sorry to hear what happened to your friend tho.

"Society has not told us how to be good men" are u fking kidding me?? Society been telling us how to be "good men" and men are still going to PUA/TRP. This isn't about society encouraging bad behaviour in men, theyre not out here doing that. it's about putting gendered expectations on them in modern times and leaving them in the dust to figure shit out on their own. I'm saying we need to be teaching Society not to do that so men dont feel the pressure and have their self worth tied to sexual success like society makes it out to be. How in the world did you get my words mixed up?

As for the general tips you've laid out I got no problem with them except "learn about feminism" I did and I find out it wasn't about equality between men and women, but female superiority under the disguise of equality. No way in hell I'm supporting that misandrist ideology.

You're right it shouldn't. Men can absolutely find happiness and contentment through other men's. My point wasn't even about compliments, it was about addressing the other side of desirability that the original post talks about. Women do give out compliments to men as nothing more than a compliment, but how many of them take an active role in making a man feel wanted, making him feel like he's being seduced and pursued by her? This is the bit I was talking about.

The main problem is the last two - that your value isn't defined by your success with women. THAT'S the worldview that needs to change, though I make no claim as to what society's telling men in this regard. Obviously a PUA is going to tell you the opposite, since they're selling you something. It's the same thing as a makeup company telling women they're ugly - it's good for business.

Hold up. Why don't you see the first one as one of the problems?

The Hallmark stereotype of the guy continuing to pursue a woman after she's rejected him (and then eventually getting her) is NOT a good man. Being aggressive is NOT being a good man.

We're not talking about media tho. The examples you're talking about have largely been in the 80s media. Today's media is nothing like this as it mostly portrays starting out as friends and hoping for something more to just happen between the characters. This is a very passive approach and not at all productive.

Many of your elaborations on what a "good man" is are just tips on how to live life authentically. What we consider "good" is heavily subjective. What you consider is good, someone else might consider standards apart from yours to be good. So just call these tips for what it really is, living authentically.

PUA/TRP are an easy answer because they are working within society's toxic worldview that we want to change.

I gotta break this down. Society as it stands doesn't share the viewpoint that men have to be aggressive, macho, at least not on the surface. Only PUA/TRP are teaching them that. Mainstream society tells them to just have confidence, to not bother them and leave them alone, just be friends with them, but they also expect men to be the initiators in talking to women at the same time. They assume them to just know how to deal with women which is a very unrealistic expectation to have of men and boys. PUA/TRP doesn't work because it works with society's 'toxic worldview' (as mainstream society views dating and relationships as something that just happens by luck), it works because it offers practicality that the mainstream failed to provide. Tips that they can use now and see results early on. That is the appeal and why it's rising.

Society says that "you don't need to conform yourself to gender roles" and by actions they show women don't need to, but by those same actions, they show men need to. And how do they do this? There's an over-emphasis on telling men to leave them alone and never bother them or they risk being a creep or making her feel uncomfortable. Society also says that "women can also make the first move" but let's be real here. Over 90% of women don't make the first move, and even when they do, their first move is sending out subtle signals which are hard to pick up, and then some of them wonder why those guys they tried 'hitting on' don't like them. They'd have to go up to a guy and say "Hey, I like you and wanna go out with you" just for them to get the message.

Start backing these kinds of content up. Feminists have been active in de-platforming Janice Fiamenco, so preserving them is top priority. I'm certain the feminist here are just playing dumb and are planning to remove it.

@Aesthesiaphilia women think about safety all the time due to the paranoia they've been fed about men growing up. The tin men actually has a post about this that you can check out.

But yea when it comes to safety, generally speaking, most stats on crime incidents are less than 1% in the grand scheme of things. Even in those statistics, men are more likely to be killed than women on average (even if by other men) but they also deal with shame and humiliation if they open up about being abused by their gf/wives or even seen as the perpetrator, false allegations, etc. When you look at it this way, the world isn't inherently safe for us even if we are more physically developed. But let's just say the world isn't safe for anyone ever.

Another reason to point out that while teaching women to be very cautious of men, we're also teaching men that they have to make the first move all the time and if they don't continuously take action then they won't see any success (this treatment gets emphasized mostly by actions than words). Men then resort to pua/redpill that teaches them strategies and guess what? Now you have to deal with men who will approach you anytime anywhere and due to what you've been fed about men coupled with some not so pleasant experiences with a few men, the whole interactions become uncomfortable.

Also many of these movements will tell men to take questionable actions in the name of "masculinity", resulting in them stopping you mid-day, persisting with you, saying outlandish things etc. All of this comes from the expectation we still have of men to take initiative and be the one driving the interaction. If we actively started telling society not to put this role to men by default, none of this would be happening.

But most men out there aren't even doing the things I've described. The kind of men who are? Puas and psychopathic men (the types of men who don't or learned not to give af about this.)

This setup creates a self-fulfilling prophecy thats just gonna make things uncomfortable for both parties and only the thoughtless and inconsiderate would be the ones to succeed here.

Idk much about first world countries as I'm often told what it's like over there from a feminist lense, but now that I question the ideology, I'm now questioning how much we're told about them are actually true. I'll be doing some research here.

The DOJ also puts out BJS when it comes to crime statistics. I did find a 2022 study that's female victim specific showing they were more likely to be killed by an intimate partner in 2021, but the incidents are very small when you compare the number of female victims reported on an ncvs study of that same year. The number of female victims in NCVS is approx 4 mil, intimate partner violence incidents were 400k (this number includes both male and female victims), but the female specific study had 4k female victims of ipv related homicide. So they exist.

I think using a psychologist and specialist would be a great idea in this case. Though how credible do you think it is? Cuz we're mostly going based off of a psychologist and specialist evaluation rather than concrete evidence. Or maybe psychology has an evaluation process of its own for it to be as credible as concrete evidence idk much about that bit honestly. But it is a good idea considering most SA incidents are usually done by someone known to the victim.

Can you point out where I put scare quotes on feminism? There's a lot of conflation with criticizing feminism with criticizing women which isn't the case. Feminism is an ideology which you can criticize, doesn't conflate with criticizing women. People already lump anyone who criticizes feminism as misogynist cus they buy into the idea that feminism is about equality, but it also promotes female empowerment which touches on the female identity, of course most people especially women are gonna identify with it (the same way men identify with the redpill movement as it promotes male empowerment). Redpill is already being criticized as a misogynistic hate group as it should be, but nobody questions the feminist ideology cuz most of them will push back hard against anyone who questions it, which is why this sub exists. The OG feminists came up with the patriarchy theory, modified the definition of toxic masculinty to make it correlate with general male behaviour. When you put those together, questioning that is almost always gonna make people think you're a misogynist. Once I actually questioned the patriarchy theory and did my own research, I found out it largely never even existed yet people believe we live in it. Same thing with the feminist ideology. The feminist ideology when it started wasn't egalitarian at all, it was actually very misandrist in the way it talked about men.

100% agree with this. I have a personal qualifier. Whenever I talk to a woman and I get body language signals that indicate she doesn't want to talk to me or isn't interested in this conversation, or maybe she's just shy. What I would do is bring up the matter in an empathetic way and basically verbally gauge if she wants to talk or not. Now we're not entitled to a response to any question we ask and that's totally fine, but I believe approaching it this way qualifies women who verbalize their comfort with us rather than expecting us to read into the situation. So if she doesn't respond to that question the minute we bring it up, that tells us what we need to know about her communication style, and whether we as men want to engage with that or not.

As for the gentler guy situation, I written a recent article with solutions that I believe would help the gentler guy out. Lemme know what you think.

Feminism (I'm talking about ideology) hasn't said it's fucked up we're taught to be afraid of men. If anything, they contributed more to that with their campaigns. Yes, women have been wary of men for a long time, it didn't mean feminist (esp OG feminists) didn't play a part in making that worse.

It's the fact that too many men have been raised in a way that they make women feel unsafe.

Men weren't raised this way by general society. It actually raises men to not bother women and leave them alone (mostly a good thing until said guy expresses romantic interest in getting to know a woman, in which society says "if you like her, go up to her and let her know how you feel" how is he supposed to do that while following the above?) Guys make women feel unsafe due to their own mental issues, being raised by misogynists or traditionalists, etc. But in cases outside of it, guys are generally respectful of women and don't bother them. Once they resort to PUA/TRP, this is where they're likely to start learning this stuff and eventually make women feel unsafe following a misguided path to romantic success. This is where even good guys start making them feel uncomfortable. Tying in with step 2, our solution would be to figure out why exactly the guys are going to PUA/TRP, and what other alternative can we offer them that A) helps them take control of their dating lives and B) not make women feel uncomfortable. This would include asking questions like should we encourage approaching, expressing interest, anytime anywhere or not? And if we do, how do we do it to make sure all parties are satisfied?

As for your step 3, I generally agree with you. It's not just replacing problematic beliefs with new ones. There also needs to be practicality for a man or a woman to shoot their shot clearly yet ethically. We should encourage them that it's okay to make the first move, that it's okay to ask someone you find attractive out, it's okay to go after what you want, even if it means just casual sex, and develop guidelines to help get those while keeping everyone safe.

@Sewblon I don't think rating people is the best way to go and it actually introduces more problems than you think. When you take sexual strategies into consideration, some people will use this app to discredit a completely innocent person for the sake of revenge or keeping some type of leverage. Human nature and motivation can manifest in different ways and we need to be mindful of that

I don't know much about Jordan Peterson. I had help from other figures before I discovered peterson personally. Aba and preach I've seen a lot of their channels and I like how nuanced they are with their takes. Of course I don't agree with all of them, but they were the first dudes who got me on the right mental track.

The title is not me asking anything, it's a title of the video I linked to. Caitlyn V is the one who came up with it, not me.

Of course safety is a very legitimate concern, but it's been something that's been used to justify very distant behaviour and misandric treatment of men, especially when you look at statistics where it's only a very few men (who are repeat offenders btw) that are out there committing them (both reported and unreported incidents), yet people use these statistics to act as if a large majority of men are out there committing crimes which isn't true. There are situations where safety does apply, but when it's used to act as if every man is a potential offender in every normal interaction, that's when it becomes a problem.

For example, if a man were to come up to you and say hi, express interest or compliment you (in any context that isn't an isolated alleyway mind you), and your first instinct is to be distant from him, treat him as if all he wants is sex, or might murder or rape you in an initial meet, then that is overboard. Crime stats from nisvs and bjs shows they happen roughly 10% of the time in most incidents. The high likelihood of sex crimes happening is with someone they are familiar with. Still not large enough to treat as if every friend or romantic interest out there is gonna do it when you factor in the general male population.

Also, men make up majority of homicide victims even at the hands of other men, but even when we're talking about gendered violence in intimate settings, the rates of gender violence from female to male isn't that far apart from male to female yet that never gets talked about at all. Then there's also false allegations which are common enough yet it's still not legally recognized as a crime. Not enough men come out to share their stories due to public ridicule and even being seen as the bad guy, nor are men's issues being taken seriously by academia to be given a deeper look apart from government stats. Safety goes both ways my guy. But even with stats like this, you have to be careful not to apply this to all men and women (when you actually factor in the total male & female population, you find the number of offenders out there in a general context is less than 1% for both genders). Just because most crime offenders are men doesn't mean most men are out here committing crimes. I will link this post for you to see.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQRpqUtbDz/

If you're talking about just talking to her, expressing interest, flirting, getting her contact information etc especially in public social environments, you're less likely to get assaulted in there. I'd go as far as to say that women have met men when they cold approach them when it was still a thing years ago and their relationships are just fine. What safety measures can you take here? Well if you're talking to a man at a bar, don't let him buy you a drink to avoid having it drugged, which doesn't mean you're not interested as you're still there talking to him. Likewise, if you meet a man on a street, keep your interactions in public and never engage him if there's a considerable distance between you and the public so your cries for help will be heard in case he tries something (tho meeting someone on the street is not something I would advice as safety concerns are pretty high here). Or if you fear he won't take rejection well, just give him a number even a fake one and gtfo of there. Or you just don't wanna talk to him or deal with another guy. You don't have to engage him at all if all you want to do is cut it short and leave, completely understandable. In all these interactions, make sure you have an open exit if you want out.

Going on a date with him? Inform your friends and keep your dates in the eye of public and exert your boundaries in case he wants to take you private. Afriad he might rape you when you guys get intimate? Set a recorder to record the interaction, let your friends know. In both cases where things get bad, pepper spray or attacking him in the genital area. Of course all of these are suggestion and the women themselves know these situations well enough to prepare for them. My point is you can engage openly with men while at the same time keeping your safety in mind.

Point is you can factor what could happen in these situations where you could be harmed in anyway, then come up with solutions to help counter them, but at the same time not need to fear of every man and live in perpetual fear of them constantly.

Expecting men to initiate isn't ideal, but it's not the primary expectation that's hurting men.

I'd say it is. I'd say it's the main reason a lot of women put up with men approaching & making them uncomfortable. If 90% of women aren't gonna make the first move on you (cuz they themselves expect men to make the first move including feminists), then to have consistent success, you need to ramp up your efforts a lot higher or nothing will happen. You're downplaying the scale this factor has on men.

I don't think a discussion of what "society" expects can happen without discussing media - it shapes our culture.

I agree with this statement, but it still doesn't change my explanation of why it doesn't match up to today's reality. Today's media is not like how you described it to be because the culture we live today isn't teaching men to pursue a woman after she's rejected him hoping she'll change her mind. That trope was played out in 80s media, not today's media.

Like you said, these are usually pieces of practical advice, and different things try to "pitch" you on different views - ultimately it's up to us to decide what we believe.

These issues are being touted by a large part of society (I'd say even society as a whole) and you wanna just shoehorn that to just "decide what you believe"?? How about we tell society to be consistent with that they preach (& I understand that takes years but we can't just leave it in the air like that.)

Why should you make the first move? Because for better or worse, that's the social contract right now.
Why is that the social contract? Men have been cast as pursuers and women pursued.

I don't think you're being sincere here. The answer to your first question is society conforming men to their gender role and you wanna minimize that to "that's the social contract right now". And your answer to that second question ignores the fact that women have already been freed from their role, they're just choosing not to approach as it's more convenient for them that way.

Approaching someone you're interested in is nerve-wracking, of course they don't wanna put themselves through that. Many anti-feminists claimed, "feminists want the benefits of being equal to men but don't want the responsibilities that come with it." This is how you're coming across rn with your replies.

so your primary goal in your approach is to make her comfortable.

I agree with this sentiment, but it still won't make them feel less comfortable when we do approach. We can be as polite and respectful as possible, but many women assume men just want sex from them or assume they might do something worse. And this isn't a few women, this is a lot of them. They already have a fear of every strange man she comes across like you've said, so it's not just our efforts, it's by sheer numbers of finding someone who'd at least give us a shot. A lot of single men are checking out of dating for this reason and are hoping luck will bring them a gf. The guys who won't check out of dating are the assholes who couldn't care less about women's safety.

"Hey, have you gotten yelled at for turning down a guy yet tonight? I can try to muster something up for you if you want."

I can tell you from experience that line you just came up here will make her even more uncomfortable guaranteed. When approaching a woman, your primary goal is to make her feel as relaxed when she's around you so she can engage comfortably. Your example statement brings back horrible memories of yelling, and women often do base their decisions on how they feel in the moment when interacting with a guy. She'll wanna get away from you faster when you frame it like that.

All in all, this feels like we're going in circles with this. I'm now at a point of stopping this discussion with you weather you reply or not.