I’d only consider the Moonlander if you have large hands. I have very average male hands and the Moonlander thumb cluster was quite painful. It’s far away and the keys are angled weirdly. Other good prebuilt options, from close to a regular keyboard to ticks off all ergo features:

• Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB
• Dygma Raise
• Keyboardio Model 100
• Kinesis Advantage
• MoErgo Glove80

My experience is that once you go ergo, you’ll end up wanting all features, so you’ll save yourself a lot of money by immediately buying a Kinesis Advantage or Glove80.

Wow, there are more people and posts here than I expected. I hope that that this community gains enough momentum to stand on its own outside Reddit.

All the recent keyboard work I have done with the Pinecil and it's great. I use both a pointed tip and a chisel tip. The pointed tip is nice for most PCB work, the chisel for things like hand wiring.

If you like the key wells, definitely the Glove80. I have recently received my Glove80 (also coming from an Advantage2) and it is fantastic. They are available with Choc Red, Brown, White, and Pro Red, support tenting and use ZMK.

Great to see this on RTINGS! I don't agree with their assessment of the build quality though. The Glove80 is very light, which may give an impression of subpar materials, etc. But I was surprised how sturdy and nicely built it is. Also, looking at the competition, at least it's not a (literal) echo chamber like the Kinesis Advantage2 and even though the 360 Pro might look more robust, it quickly gets scratches from the original palm pads.

Did you try Choc linears? Even though I’d still like to try Sunsets, I think tactility is far less useful for low-profile switches. Click/tactility was originally added to MX switches to make it possible to type without bottoming out. But typical MX switches that actuate at 2mm still have 2mm post-actuation travel.

In real-world measurements, the overall travel of Choc switches is 2.8/2.9mm [1]. A typical Choc switch actuates at 1.5 to 2mm, so there is very little post-actuation travel. So if you add a perceptible tactile bump, it’s unlikely that you can type without bottoming out and the effect might be that you slam harder into bottoming out.

I think with low-profile switches, it’s better to accept that you are probably going to bottom out and get switches with a lower spring weight so that you bottom out with less force. Otherwise you’ll get an Apple Magic Keyboard - the steep tactile bump makes you crash into the wall at high speed.

[1] https://github.com/...

Alright, these are my experiences with the Advantage360 Pro and Glove80.

Let me start with two disclaimers. First of all, the Advantage360 is a great ergo keyboard. It ticks off a lot of ergo features and I can fully understand that people are happy with it. Secondly, I have had my Glove80 just over a week. I plan to write up an actual review after one or two months. These are just my initial impressions and my opinions may still change after using the Glove80 for a longer period.

So, I should probably first say why I sold my 360 Pro after six months. Prior to the 360 Pro I was using and Advantage2 and life was good. Ehm, I mean I was really happy with it. Of course, the Advantage2 is largely a 30 year old design, so it has its shortcomings, such as no adjustable split and no adjustable tenting. So, I was very interested in getting a 360 when it came out, since it would solve these shortcomings of the Advantage2.

Initially I got a regular 360, but I returned it the next day, because the firmware had some serious bugs. Eg. the keyboard regularly froze while the V-Drive was mounted and there were bugs around macros. Also the keyboard was sold by the distributor as new, it had clearly been used before (there was damage from optional magnetic palm pads). So I tried it for maybe 30 minutes and then exchanged it with the 360 Pro.

The 360 Pro initially had really bad Bluetooth issues. When the keyboard was turned off or when flashing a new firmware/layout, it usually took 1-2 minutes of meticulous power cycle timing to get the halves to link again. This got better with subsequent firmware versions, but still required meticulous timing except I'd get it connected after one or two attempts.

However, the worse issue for me were the switches. Cherry Brown switches used in the Advantage2 are not known for their smooth and sharp tactility. But for me the Gateron Browns in the 360 Pro are really tiring to type on. I discovered pretty quickly that in contrast to the Cherry Browns they don't actuate at 2mm, but close to 3mm. So typing is simply much more work for each finger.

Then there were more minor issues like that the ABS keycaps that the 360 Pro come feel quite bad. I did replace them with PBT keycaps. But it's weird that a 620 Euro keyboard needs another 60 Euro upgrade to get decent key caps. Also the keycap profiles are (IMO) a regression compared to the Advantage2 --- the spherical home row caps on the Advantage2 are nicer than the bland caps on the 360, also the 360 removed much of the staircase effect from the thumb cluster, making it harder to reach the upper keys.

Finally, the Advantage360 does not address an important shortcoming that goes back to the original Kinesis Contoured Keyboard - most people with regular or small hands can only reach two keys on each thumb cluster (four in total) without extreme stretching or moving your hand.

All in all, even though the Advantage360 Pro is much more expensive in Europe than the Advantage2, it feels like a side-grade from the Advantage2. It brings variable tenting, a variable split, and better acoustics. But it has (IMO) worse switches, Bluetooth issues, and worse keycaps. After a while I switched back to the Advantage2 because the switches were just less tiring and the 360 Pro was collecting dust (and then I sold it to recoup some of the cost).

I went back and forth a lot on whether I should buy a Glove80. My largest worry were the Choc switches. I have built some custom keyboards before with Choc switches and was never a big fan. However, I am glad that I eventually bit the bullet and ordered the Glove80.

One thing that immediately noticed when I started using the Glove80 is that the key wells feel better. I haven't discovered all the reasons yet, but one thing that immediately jumped out for me was that the pinky columns feel nicer and that the pinky keys are easier to reach. If you look at the keyboard and your hand it's pretty evident why. If you put your hand flat on the table, you can see that your pinky is much shorter than your ring finger. Both the Advantage and Glove80 account for this by moving the pinky column slighly towards the palm/wrist, but as importantly, they have a significantly raised pinky column. However, if you curl up your fingers or make a fist, you see that the length difference between the pinky and ring finger is almost gone. The Advantage does not account for this, the lower pinky rows are still raised compared to the ring finger rows. This makes typing with the pinky on the lower rows less pleasant. On the Glove80 the height of the pinky row converges towards the height of the ring finger rows in the lower rows. This makes typing with the pinky on the lower rows much more pleasant. The key wells feel different in other ways as well, but I haven't investigated what the differences are yet :).

Another thing immediately jumps out is the thumb cluster. In contrast to the Advantage thumb cluster, the Glove 80 thumb cluster follows the thumb arc when you move the thumb outwards and has a raised second thumb cluster layer. I have average-sized hands and I can use more thumb cluster keys comfortably, which is definitely a win.

The tenting mechanism on the 360 is easier to use than that on the Glove80. But I always had the issue that none of the tenting degrees was exactly right for me. I often felt like the ideal degree on the 360 was somewhere between the lowest and the middle setting. So after a while I started to switch several times a day. It took me 30-60 minutes to tweak tenting on the Glove80, but that put it at a setting that I really like and feels good.

Wrt. to Bluetooth connectivity, after using the 360 Pro, I thought that the difficulty getting halves to link was an ZMK issue. But it turns out I was wrong. For me, so far the Glove80 halves have always linked immediately. No matter when I turn on each halve, it simply hasn't been an issue.

Finally, the convex keycaps feel great (they are made to make it easy to move upwards and downwards). I expected that I would be bothered with the uniform profile, but with the curvature of the key wells and the shape of the keycaps I don't have any trouble finding keys. And it's nice that you can rearrange the caps as a result of the uniform profile (which I like as a Colemak-DH user). I went with Choc Red switches and they don't bother me in daily use. They may not be silky smooth, lubed with Tibetan mountain goat saliva or whatever, but during multiple days of work they didn't bother me and that is all I ask for. Plus there are multiple switch options to choose from (including soldering your own).

So far I haven't really found anything negative, except that hopefully one day it will also be available in local ergo shops so that people can try it out + next day shipping.

Ok, this got a bit longer than I expected. But summarized my current feeling is that while the 360 is mostly a side-grade, the Glove80 is really an evolutionary step forward in contoured keyboards.

You missed the original contoured keyboard, Maltron: http://www.maltron.com/...

I have/had a Dactyl, Advantage2, and Advantage360, but the Glove80 is definitely my favorite!

I found the position of the hand rests really weird from the pictures. But then I put my hands on a Model 100 that I have and they are in a similar position. Given that the layout and the keycap profile look the same as the Model 100, this pretty much looks like a plastic monoblock version of the Model 100.

That color though 😘, we should have more boldly-colored prebuilt keyboards than all the boring black/grey.

The soldering work looks pretty rough (practice on a throwaway project first). Probably one of the TRRS or MCU pins is not well connected. Get out a multimeter and do a continuity check of all the connections. It could also be misconfiguration of QMK, but make sure the basics (hardware connections) are right first.

Someone listed one on an online marketplace (sorta like the Dutch craigslist) without a price. It had already been on offer for six days (probably not a lot of interest in ergo keyboards there), so I offered 150 Euro and he agreed.

I had wrist pains every now and then over the years. They never felt bad enough so find a doctor, so it never had a specific diagnosis.

Then I had a worse brush with wrist pain I decided to try several split keyboards (Microsoft Sculpt on and off, Kinesis Freestyle Edge, Ferris Sweep, Kyria) and they didn't really improve things and sometimes gave me new pains. Only after switching to a Kinesis Advantage2 I saw large improvements and wrist pains mostly going away.

I also started to be more mindful of taking breaks (sometimes it works out, sometimes I am so focused that time flies by) and do some hand exercises during breaks. I also got an easily adjustable standing desk (just a press of the button), so I can tune it to have exactly the right height and switch between sitting and standing.

The next obligatory step, assuming you need (or want for whatever reason) an ergo keyboard, is a visit here: https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/

It's nice for flat keyboards, but not really useful for contoured keyboards like the Kinesis Advantage, Glove80 or Dactyl. I am still hoping that someone will provide a service where you can offer stub versions of common contoured keyboards so that you can try how they'd feel. Of course, the 3D construction if one of the more expensive parts, so I don't know how feasible it is...

Nothing. Besides hardware (better battery life, faster, etc.) only software has “improved”.

If you are a technical user, the new-ish Linux Terminal is cool. It's a full Linux VM that you can run on an Android phone. It can even run graphical Wayland apps through Weston. You can enable it by enabling developer settings and then flipping the Linux Terminal toggle. After that, there will be an app called Terminal.

These are separate things. You can easily replace the SmartSet controller in the KA2 with a KinT controller with QMK. The key wells and thumb clusters are connected to the controller with removable ribbon cables. The swap-out takes maybe 5 minutes.

Kinesis offered replacement flex PCB and key wells in the past, so that you could replace your switches. They don’t sell them anymore and instead you have to go through an expensive UpgradeKeyboards.com build.

The Moonlander doesn't have a great thumb cluster anyway, so I wouldn't recommend it unless you have large hands. Prebuilts that you can get from Europe are (excluding keyboards without thumb keys like the Kinesis Freestyle Edge):

• Dygma Raise, the Defy is delayed again, so it'll probably take a few months before you can get your hands on one. But I think it's better to wait if you want to go with Dygma, because column stagger is a large improvement over row stagger.
• Custom build by Falbatech.
• Kinesis Advantage2 or Advantage360. These are the most ergonomic keyboards that you can get in Europe if you are not willing to order something outside Europe (like the Glove80). Lots of ergo shops have them, so you may even be able to try it out in a shop or with a 30/90 day return period if you find a good dealer.

If you’re interested in something different, one really promising keyboard project just launched: Svalboard.

I have no experience with the Datahand, but the lateral finger movements necessary on that board look 😱. On a regular column stagger keyboard only the index finger makes a lot of lateral movements (meh) and the thumb (but following the natural thumb arc anyway).

Any tips or tricks?

Don't plug or unplug the TRRS cable when the keyboard is powered through USB, you wouldn't be the first one to fry their keyboard in this way.

Yeah, IMO the promotional posts really got out of hand on the old subreddit. A certain manufacturer (who do make lovely cases) posted pretty comparable pics every 2 days or so. On the one hand I think we should nurture our vendor community, on the other hand I'd rather see this happening organically with users sharing their experiences with builds that they buy. I agree that a sticky thread would be a good solution, people who are interested could just follow that thread. To give it more freshness, maybe it could be a monthly Vendor news in [August, ...] thread where vendors could post.

I think the only exception should be made for announcements of things like new case files or GitHub repos with Gerbers (which can include a link to the vendor that made it). Only permitting that type of vendor posts outside the vendor thread would encourage vendors to make new source files available.

They have them in Dvorak (QD). But presumably, most Advantage users are touch typists and the Advantage is programmable, so there is no real need? I use mine with blank PBT caps.