Capitalism is not freedom anyway. There is a reason we anarchists reject capitalism. We know better
stevehobbes 4 points 3 years ago
Yes, but they’re also mostly nuts.
dangblingus 14 points 3 years ago
Or maybe just don't value the same creature comforts you do.
stevehobbes -1 points 3 years ago
Anarchists are basically our version of libertarians. There’s no internal consistency and the vast majority of ideas or arguments don’t survive even a cursory examination.
It requires humans to behave in a fundamentally different manner than every bit of recorded human history has shown us. It’s a reality that doesn’t, and with all available evidence, can't exist.
Sheeple 2 points 3 years ago
Free to be poor (Includes: Threat of starvation, social shunning, homelessness, your entire life collapsing and you can be sure the state is still gonna put you into even more debt. Then put you into prison because you couldn't pay up where you are coerced into slave labor)
c0mbatbag3l 0 points 3 years ago
Anarchists are their own brand of stupid.
Sanctus -5 points 3 years ago
The Human OS is not ready to be without borders unfortunately. One day, after the last smog-filled breath of air is forcefully exhumed, and all the world's treasures fail the last baron of wealth, we will be ready. As long as our hearts are wholly material, the world will stay the same.
OurToothbrush -3 points 3 years ago
We literally didn't have borders as they exist today until a century ago lmao, they literally solidified around the formation of what we consider modern nation-states.
The human os isn't ready for a borderless world my entire ass, the issue is the systems currently in place.
stevehobbes 5 points 3 years ago
Humans have built societies with rules for forever.
And banish people outside their society.
I’m not an expert on the theory of all of this, but it seems entirely dubious that anarchy could function in any environment for long.
Potatos_are_not_friends 8 points 3 years ago
"But me not being able to say the N word is literally infringing on my rights!" - people who scream free speech
EvolvedTurtle 1 point 3 years ago
Not even We have just enough freedom to feel free But not enough to where we have to pay to litterly live
I can't even afford van life tbh
CollisionResistance 49 points 3 years ago
They Have Money For War But Can't Feed The Poor
-2pac
FlyingSquid 3 points 3 years ago
The poor go to war, to fight and die for the delights, riches, and superfluities of others.
-- Plutarch
CE 45 - ~CE 119
This has literally been said by people for at least two millennia.
Keeponstalin 6 points 3 years ago
Preach 🙏
LemmyKnowsBest -2 points 3 years ago path: 0 6651726 6655418, hotness: undefined, score: -2, children: 0
FlashMobOfOne 9 points 3 years ago
Not in the USA it isn't.
Neither party has done a damn thing to address housing scarcity, and in a few months, you're all going to vote for the same assholes who ignore it.
BachenBenno 9 points 3 years ago
Power to the people ☭
acockworkorange 6 points 3 years ago
I'm pretty sure OP is advocating for limits to these cited rights.
acockworkorange 7 points 3 years ago
That's a weird take. All rights have limits, why should this be any different?
Dehydrated 2 points 3 years ago
Compost billionaires - get free fuel and fertiliser!
Darkenfolk 1 point 3 years ago
Your sure about that?
Dehydrated -1 points 3 years ago
Maybe they don't live off of benefits, but they get massive tax benefits. In fact, the government loses way more revenue by not taxing billionaires properly than by helping homeless people.
dream_weasel 4 points 3 years ago
Bro, billionaires can't be black! (/s omg)
CallumWells 4 points 3 years ago
*hoarding
NotJustForMe -3 points 3 years ago
I haven't read up on official human rights. Who made them? Did someone bother to ask most humans?
This is a Sunday-morning coffee post, not a detailed world-view. Feel free to ask, but refrain from shooting things down. It's not like I've spent hours on this.
How are they defined, human rights? I'd say anyone in my way to spread my genes keeps me from being a human.
As a pragmatist, I'd say breathing and eating, and perhaps warmth and caring are human rights. We can't do any of them on our own after being born, and without them some really crappy humans emerge. Breathing should be top tier. Anyone disturbing that should be under heavy focus. Can't do anything without air.
After that, once we are fairly independent, doing things to keep people keeping me from growing up and procreating should be my right.
Killing someone else would keep them from doing that, so not being killed by other humans seems like one. Killing others would disqualify me from being human, and I would give up my rights by that act. Straightforward stuff.
Mix in social structures, and it becomes complicated.
Being homeless? Build a commune somewhere. Why insist on being near that techno-tribe with internet. It's nothing but a tribe, has nothing to do with survival or being human. Having modern amenities can't be a right. Other humans invented them at some point.
Which leads to something no human should have a right to: owning land. Because owning land keeps humans from realizing their purpose and keeps them from being free to be human.
Housing is a right? That's ridiculous. That's a technological achievement from other people. So is monetary wealth. How can those be a right. If nobody came along inventing them, nobody would have them. Can't be a right. At all. That is just the consequences of capitalism and ownership of natural resources.
NotJustForMe 3 points 3 years ago
You do? I wonder how that would work. Can't see it, personally.
rando895 2 points 3 years ago
Probably important to point this out: private property is not personal property.
E.g. An apartment building rented to tenants is the landlords private property. They have exclusive rights to the decisions, especially economic ones, regarding the building and the profits of the rent.
A car, book, house, pizza, are all your personal property so long as you don't owe a lender anything for them.
So no private property might look like:
The people who live in an apartment building own the building collectively and have the full right therein, but the individual units are each their own personal property.
Grayox 0 points 3 years ago
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Gerula -10 points 3 years ago
Rights are something that the society you live in and contribute to, grants you!
There are no inherent human rights to be had! Even being alive is a happening not a right! You're born because your parents fucked, there was nothing special about it!
L.E. I see a lot of snowflakes are bothered by what I said, good. Maybe you start thinking once about what you have, instead of whining about what you would like!
JayDee 2 points 3 years ago
Let's not forget that the only reason states exist is to serve those within them. If that state should fail to serve its people sufficiently, it's been common throughout history that they've been dismantled by the people.
You are correct about natural rights. They are fought for. Many rights, such as workers' rights, were strongly fought for and founded on blood (pretty much all of them in fact). However, when talking about rights, one remember the original meaning of the word: that which is morally good or honorable. The legal entitlement is preceded by the philosophical definition. In a just society legal rights should reflect moral rights as closely as possible.
Housing is necessary for life, and so depriving an individual of housing when housing is unutilized is equatable to murder, an injustice. This is why the post communicates that housing is a human right.
Gerula 1 point 3 years ago
Corect, but if the state is or isn't serving those within, is a decision to be taken by the same individuals. Up to now those who are considering this are a small subset of the citizens which agrregate in underground forums and not actively trying to change the society and have a positive impact.
Housing is necessary for life but it was never a right in that society. Also necessary for life are water, clothing, food, medical assistance, etc. None of them are rights of the people within that society. It may not correct but it is what it is.
c0mbatbag3l 1 point 3 years ago
I'm starting to think most of lemmy is populated by a bunch of kids who just read Marx and have no actual world experiences cause they're 14.
thantik -10 points 3 years ago
I don't think housing should be considered a human right, unless being homeless is made illegal. But, being homeless is practically illegal everywhere, so here we are, agreeing with one another.
I try to think to myself - at what point do we call for things to be considered human rights? At what point in human history did we start considering clean water to be a human right? -- Generally once we had massive cheap, clean, unfettered access to it, right?
Companies and corporations, want their workers healthy, housed, disease free, etc. So -- if they want those things, they should be considered 'rights' and we should collect taxes on making sure those rights are distributed, shouldn't we?
thantik -7 points 3 years ago
I edited my reply to expound upon my thoughts. But mostly it comes down to -- because houses require vast resources to build. You need people in the steel industry, wood/lumber industries, a set of housing standards, architects, etc.
Unless these things become so cheap that they're basically costless, ensuring a house for everyone free of charge is a monumentally burdensome task.
Zagorath 19 points 3 years ago
Something shouldn't have to be free to be a human right. That's an extremely right-wing American point of view, where they only believe in so-called "negative" rights.
A right to housing wouldn't mean builders and their suppliers have to work for free. That's the same kind of nonsense reasoning libertarians and conservatives use to argue against free healthcare.
A right to housing would impose an obligation on governments to do everything they can to ensure housing is readily available to anyone who wants it. Whether by ensuring that everyone can afford housing (economic policies that lower the cost of housing and/or put more money on people's pockets) or by directly ensuring the government itself can give people a place to live if they can't afford it. Ideally a mix of both.
thantik -5 points 3 years ago
What you described there is not what a human right consists of. Sure, governments should do exactly what you say, but something considered a 'human right' has much higher standards. It MUST be met. It's not an optional strive-to-do-our-best situation.
thantik -4 points 3 years ago
Absolutely it is. Because our "rights" are just invented bullshit brought about by the society we've created. You don't have the right for me not to murder you in the lawless nothingness of nature. Therefore, if it's difficult as a society to supply it -- we can, AND DO, reject things as human rights.
As it is, clean water is not a human right. Housing is not a human right. You WANT it to be, but your feelings here obviously don't have a speck of reality within them.
dangblingus 4 points 3 years ago
Money is fake. It doesn't exist. Your labor has value. You can use your labor to make other people's lives easier. They can use their labor to make your life easier. Like building stuff? Cool. I'll make your wardrobe if you build my house. No banks or real estate agents necessary.
pingveno 7 points 3 years ago
A reasonably stable currency is incredibly useful as an abstraction for value. Do you farm potatoes? Do you need a difficult medical procedure? I guarantee you, the surgeon, support staff, and the hospital are not much interested in being paid in a sufficient amount of potatoes.
Zagorath 11 points 3 years ago
I don't think housing should be considered a human right, unless being homeless is made illegal.
Huh? I don't see how that follows.
Freedom of speech is widely regarded as a human right. But you still have the right not to express yourself.
Shelter is literally a human need. It's like, number 4 on the list after air, water, and food. Maybe before food, even. Being necessary for life should be a sufficient condition to qualify as a human right.
thantik -8 points 3 years ago
Speech doesn't require anything tangible though. Big difference. Same with the right to water -- it has more to do with not infringing the rights of others (by dumping waste into the water, etc) than it does actually attaining something tangible; mostly due to how widely available it is, causing it to be essentially free as well. That's why those are already codified rights basically -- because they're easy to attain and ensure.
GoodbyeBlueMonday 6 points 3 years ago
Water is tangible though. Clean, safe drinking water isn't cheaply and widely available (in the USA, anyway) by accident: it's a huge endeavor that requires tax money to maintain public infrastructure. See the ongoing crises in places with tainted water to see how challenging it is to maintain.
Housing is harder than water, but public water and sanitation systems are incredibly expensive, so I wonder what the comparison would be like against more public housing.
thantik -7 points 3 years ago
Clean, safe drinking water isn't cheaply and widely available
Literally rain. It's literally free, and literally "widely" available. As I said, water rights have more to do with not polluting fresh water sources than actually attaining physical water.
Mellanderthist -10 points 3 years ago
Housing is not a human right as humans can exist in the wild without a house.
HiddenLayer5 6 points 3 years ago
Appeal to nature fallacy. Just because something is a certain way in nature doesn't automatically mean it's good because nature has no concept of good or bad. Living in "the wild" has a far higher mortality rate than any of us should accept today. By your logic nothing should be a human right because we can always just die if we don't have it, just as nature intended.
Also, humans originated in the African savannah, which is much warmer than the places most humans now live. And even in the savannah at the dawn of our species we were nest building animals that instinctively would make shelters for ourselves. Housing is as natural to humanity as hives are to bees.
haui_lemmy 1 point 3 years ago
Very well put. Thank you. :)
arbitrary_sarcasm 5 points 3 years ago
By that logic, nothing is a human right since you can find food, water and shelter in the wild.
The problem with that logic is that you assume everyone to be physically able and knowledgeable to live off the land.
Sagifurius 2 points 3 years ago
That's right. Nothing is a human right. Many humans have rights outlined in their countries constitutions but even those are easily stomped on with usually little consequence
arbitrary_sarcasm 1 point 3 years ago
And you're saying that shouldn't be the case right ? Right ?
I'd insert that Anakin Padme meme here if I had one ready.
Sagifurius 2 points 3 years ago
I'm just saying what is. If you want what I think should be, I'm a non Randian libertarian. Big on personal responsibility and the risk of consequences and consequences of risk, less on being a whiny bitch about everything.
NotJustForMe 1 point 3 years ago
Well, it takes some time to grow up to be able to find food and water. How long until we can walk even?
Food, water and means to provide an upbringing until offspring can care for themselves, those could be considered basic rights.
Housing is so far into the technological advancements, building up on so many other systems, I fail to see how that can be a right.
Air and food on the other hand, and sensible means to acquiring those. Well. There certainly is room for discussion. When people start owning land, keeping others to effectively do those things, they should have to provide alternatives. Or we have to abolish ownership of natural resources at all. Both can't work together. That's ineffective, of course, and makes planning and advancement difficult.
The price of capitalism and ownership of nature should be compensation. Nothing natural about social structures. If they want to continue those money games, they need to play by the rules of nature. Or they'll go down with chopped-off heads at some point.
Draedron 4 points 3 years ago
Article 25 of the declararion of himan rights: Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family
Seriously, do you think human rights are somehow just a feeling what should be? They are written down and you can look them up.
iquanyin 3 points 3 years ago
it’s illegal. the blm will come with guns and force you out. i know this for a fact. not can i just find some land and grow my food and raise animals. it’s either owned by someone or it’s govt land.
NotJustForMe 1 point 3 years ago
Absolutely. So instead of building up on that, declaring everyone may own something, making them mini billionaires in principle; yeah, make owning land illegal. That would be the natural conclusion.
You are basically saying: other people owning things and keeping me from building a house and a live should be illegal. Your solution: Make everyone own something, so they can build a house! Houses for everyone, hurray! But hey, my family is twice as big as yours, my house should, by right, be bigger. And hey, my farm supplies for ten families, it should, by right, be bigger. You don't want to farm, let me buy your land and provide for you. And so the circle begins.
I'd say, that thinking is what got us here in the first place.
iquanyin 1 point 3 years ago
i’m pretty sure that native americans were able to not own land and work this out. i do think owning land is absurd. also, all i need to do is look around to know that how we are doing things has to change if our species wants to keep living. i don’t mean what you think but it’s the wee hours here, the key word being “wee” as that’s why i got up for a sec. so…back to sleep it is.
rivermonster -4 points 3 years ago
EDIT: Abridged for clarity
Throughout history, plenty of people have sought out and been fine with a life of subsistence and, where possible, peace. It’s actually more telling when someone can NOT conceive of a life that’s completely soaked in foul consumption and exploitation. Not everyone would want to be a king or lord. Lots would NOT.
Powerpoint 3 points 3 years ago
Jesus Christ are you advocating for feudal times or something? What the fuck is this shit.
Sagifurius 1 point 3 years ago
"This shit" is a sign you need to go back to school
rivermonster 0 points 3 years ago path: 0 6651451 6655080 6655754 6663949 6665422, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 1
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