I've noticed something about anarchists that i find pretty funny: they'll praise marxist revolutions and revolutionaries AS LONG AS they dont actually succeed.

3 years ago by CPCsStrongestWumao to c/comradeship

You'll see anarchists praising Rosa Luxemburg, who if they had actually read her writings -- they would see that she was very clearly one of the "authoritarian" socialists that they rail against so much.

You see them praise the Black Panthers, who were supported financially by the DPRK and aligned themselves with the Juche ideology of Kim Il Sung.

They even praise Thomas Sankara, who purged anarchists and arrested syndicalists.

If these people had succeeded, i have no doubt in my mind that anarchists would call them "tankies," they would call their experiments "capitalism with a red flag." And I also have no doubt in my mind that if the October Revolution, Chinese Revolution had been crushed, they would hail Lenin and Mao as proletarian heroes.

yogthos 52 points 3 years ago

Another thing I find hilarious with Anarchists is that many of them are huge EU supporters. Turns out they're totally fine with centralization and large unelected bureaucracies in practice. These people are just LARPing.

path: 0 254256, hotness: undefined, score: 52, children: 5
mulcahey 8 points 3 years ago

Can't say I've seen this among anarchists... Any examples?

path: 0 254256 275061, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 4
yogthos 31 points 3 years ago

My personal experience talking about the EU with people like @poVoq@lemmy.ml

path: 0 254256 275061 284873, hotness: undefined, score: 31, children: 3
PolandIsAStateOfMind 7 points 3 years ago

To be fair he seems to be somewhat unconventional, even most online anarchists are not openly bootlicking imperialist institutions like that.

path: 0 254256 275061 284873 309995, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 2
yogthos 22 points 3 years ago

He's a bit more honest about it, but vast majority of anarchists support NATO to the hilt right now. When push comes to shove anarchists are just liberals LARPing.

path: 0 254256 275061 284873 309995 314860, hotness: undefined, score: 22, children: 1
alicirce 46 points 3 years ago path: 0 238313, hotness: undefined, score: 46, children: 3
Zaratustash 19 points 3 years ago

lmao I literally clicked this thread to post this exact essay

path: 0 238313 238832, hotness: undefined, score: 19, children: 1
alicirce 12 points 3 years ago

it's very good 😊

path: 0 238313 238832 239150, hotness: undefined, score: 12, children: 0
toomanyjoints69 9 points 3 years ago
path: 0 238313 274892, hotness: undefined, score: 9, children: 0
angrytoadnoises 28 points 3 years ago

Yeah, Anarchists don't seem to actually want to succeed in anything. They just want to perpetually feel superior about their morals as well as comfortable that nothing will ever change. They want to be cool, contrarian good guys, imagining a world that will only ever exist in books and stories.

path: 0 238994, hotness: undefined, score: 28, children: 2
ColonelRevolution 7 points 3 years ago

That's why my anarchist phase was short-lived. I was reading about anarchism and I found out that many of them don't even expect that the revolution will succeed. It's just a desperate moral opposition to the status quo without any serious intention to change the material reality.

Not a great strategy to make the world a better place lol

path: 0 238994 306992, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 1
angrytoadnoises 7 points 3 years ago

I'm very much the same. Had a short anarchist phase, don't entirely disagree with a lot of the worldview, but feel the situation is too desperate to rely on fantastical situations when there's already existing theory on how to fix the world.

path: 0 238994 306992 311442, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 0
ButtigiegMineralMap 23 points 3 years ago

A Psalm from the Apostle, Parenti: “They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. NO SURPRISE THEN THAT THE PURE SOCIALISTS SUPPORT EVERY REVOLUTION EXCEPT THE ONES THAT SUCCEED.”

path: 0 291838, hotness: undefined, score: 23, children: 1
CPCsStrongestWumao 10 points 3 years ago

another parenti W

path: 0 291838 299904, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 0
savoy 21 points 3 years ago

They're pretty much more liberal ultras. They bang on about this wonderful utopia and tear down any attempts at socialist revolution or maintaining a workers state. And not only that, but they don't put in the needed work into building towards revolution or increasing class consciousness among the working class. They're entirely fine trying to build cooperative farms or doing performative mutual aid.

path: 0 255008, hotness: undefined, score: 21, children: 0
Mzuark 21 points 3 years ago

Most self professed leftists don't actually have a plan for what happens if they get the revolution they want. I guess they think the point of the ideology is just killing people and burning shit, not creating a better society.

path: 0 286062, hotness: undefined, score: 21, children: 0
Valbrandur 18 points 3 years ago

Aside from the what it is to be said by the already recomended text on western marxism and christianity by Jones Manoel on RedSails, which I find very fitting here, I have found out by experience that anarchists usually have a very strong tendency to romanticize the act of revolution in general, of sublevation to overthrow the existing hierarchies, and very little focus on what comes after, which is the organization of the new society that is to come.

Chances are that this lack of focus is the result of the development of an anarchist's conceptualization of a post-capitalist society falling an overwhelming majority of times in one of two fields: either authoritarianism (most of us have witnessed an anarchist accidentally developing the idea of vanguards in their search to defend their revolutions) or the most bizarre and impractical modes of production and self-defense that could be concieved, such as the idea that medicines and other highly complex products could ever be produced by individual people as a form of pastime.

This is, overall, too much hassle for the average western anarchist, who doesn't find the need to concern themselves with that simply because, for them, anarchism is just an aesthetic used as a form of expressing one's identity and individuality, and not as a project to work towards.

Edit: Grammar.

path: 0 290139, hotness: undefined, score: 18, children: 0
reazonozaer 15 points 3 years ago

It is easy to support failed attempts because then they can imagine that this time those folks would have done things "perfectly" or in other words, the way the person imagining it would have done things. Without any of the messy details of having to work in the real world with real conditions.

path: 0 291111, hotness: undefined, score: 15, children: 0
StalinsMoustache 14 points 3 years ago

for the revolution to succeed, youll need some sort of mechanism to oppress the oppressors. Most anarchists seem to want the revolution, but dont want to secure it cause oppression /authoritarianism/hiearchies is bad. A problem with being an absolutist.

path: 0 305817, hotness: undefined, score: 14, children: 0
Krause 13 points 3 years ago path: 0 301056, hotness: undefined, score: 13, children: 1
CPCsStrongestWumao 5 points 3 years ago

yeah. that part about how Che is seen by the western left, in comparison to Castro, rings true

path: 0 301056 331678, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0
Drstrange2love 10 points 3 years ago

Online anarchists are a flandering version of the ideology they preach.

path: 0 255233, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 0
DudePluto 4 points 3 years ago

Noob Q: why is it always anarchist vs authoritarian? Surely there's a middle ground?

path: 0 302428, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1
simply_surprise 15 points 3 years ago

If you're ok with a longish read, I think this lays it out pretty clearly:

https://www.marxists.org/...

The short answer is that anarchists and ML's don't have the same goals, and don't have the same chosen methods to reach them. The only thing we agree on is (roughly) who the enemy is: capitalism.

It goes back over 100 years to the Bakunin/Marx split in the first international. It's been going for a while!

path: 0 302428 304897, hotness: undefined, score: 15, children: 0
rostselmasch 3 points 3 years ago

I doubt very much that they have ever read Rosa Luxemburg. The most they pick up on is the nonsense that Luxemburg had something against the Russian revolution, which is not true.

Anarchism lacks a materialist basis. Above all, an understanding of the role of the state.

The differences between anarchism and Marxism were decided well over 100 years ago. Those works are still relevant, so it is enough to read them.

path: 0 249129, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 1
pleasemakesense 1 point 3 years ago

Rosa Luxemburg's writings are more closely related to Trotskyism and disagrees with the notion of a monolithic party, essentionally saying it isn't democratic enough. It's a derivative of marxism just like anarchism i.e. it doesn't subscribe to many of the ideas of leninism.

path: 0 249129 251441, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
CannotSleep420 2 points 3 years ago

SMH. I can't wait until Hexbear federates so sectarians can have the sectarianism bullied out of them.

path: 0 249326, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
LadyAutumn -7 points 3 years ago

I'm not arguing with 10 people at once, none of whom are interested in any actual discussion. Please tell me how because I'm an anarchist i don't read books and must be a racist lmao. Good bye 👋

path: 0 299146, hotness: undefined, score: -7, children: 34
CannotSleep420 21 points 3 years ago

The sectarianism is annoying (inshallah for Hexbear federation to bully the sectarians), but the narrative about MLs regularly teaming up with anarchists only to stab them in the back turns out to be bullshit when investigated.

path: 0 299146 300167, hotness: undefined, score: 21, children: 7
PolandIsAStateOfMind 16 points 3 years ago

Btw an anarchist from blahaj coming here and complaining about sectarianism is mighty rich when a 80% of entire lemmy modlog bans are people banned from there for being "tankie" - specifically interesting since their comments for which they are banned are not specified, that is, they haven't been banned for anything concrete.

Also preempive fishing for a ban, lol, how old they even are?

path: 0 299146 300167 309898, hotness: undefined, score: 16, children: 3
LadyAutumn -3 points 3 years ago

I'm 26 years old. And I'm used to being banned from spaces like this. Honestly talking here at all is extremely depressing, I was legitimately hoping that I would be banned, so I could easily differentiate in the future leftist communities that will not spread misinformation about my political beliefs from ones that will.

path: 0 299146 300167 309898 310072, hotness: undefined, score: -3, children: 2
PolandIsAStateOfMind 12 points 3 years ago

Can you just spare yourself an utter embarrasment and block us or better yet, create an account on instance which have defederated from us if that's so important to you?

that will not spread misinformation about my political beliefs from ones that will.

That's incredibly hypocritical of you to say after what you wrote in this thread.

path: 0 299146 300167 309898 310072 310110, hotness: undefined, score: 12, children: 1
LadyAutumn -8 points 3 years ago

I'm not arguing with 10 people at once, none of whom are interested in any actual discussion. Please tell me how because I'm an anarchist i don't read books and must be a racist lmao. Good bye 👋

path: 0 299146 300167 300352, hotness: undefined, score: -8, children: 2
CPCsStrongestWumao 19 points 3 years ago

"NOOOO, LENIN JUST LET THESE SAILORS BREAK AWAY IN THE MOST STRATEGICALLY VALUBLE NAVAL LAND WHILE THERE'S CURRENTLY 13 FOREIGN NATIONS INVADING YOU. THEYRE MORE IDEOLOGICALLY PURE!!!!"

path: 0 299146 300167 300352 300511, hotness: undefined, score: 19, children: 1
LadyAutumn -2 points 3 years ago

I'm sure mass murder was the only solution.

path: 0 299146 300167 300352 300511 310081, hotness: undefined, score: -2, children: 0
simply_surprise 12 points 3 years ago

Left unity isn't real, and we don't share a common cause

path: 0 299146 299925, hotness: undefined, score: 12, children: 16
LadyAutumn -6 points 3 years ago

I'm not arguing with 10 people at once, none of whom are interested in any actual discussion. Please tell me how because I'm an anarchist i don't read books and must be a racist lmao. Good bye 👋

path: 0 299146 299925 300017, hotness: undefined, score: -6, children: 15
SovereignState 22 points 3 years ago

You almost certainly support regimes who would have me executed for being queer

The final battlecry of the faux-"leftist" who refuses to actually engage with revolutionaries who actually do things.

If you engaged with us in good faith whatsoever you would realize that a disproportionate percentage of us are LGBT+. We're also scientific socialists and believe in something called nuance.

I am certain that you believe RFA nonsense regarding LGBT rights in AES nations. You should have seen the resolute joy permeating this site when Cuba passed the new family code. Vietnam will hold a similar referendum in 2024 and I have a ton of hope the Vietnamese people will make the correct choice. Being a worker's democracy, I believe they will.

How does it feel knowing the AES world is progressing at 10x speed the capitalist world ever has? How does it feel to see successful socialism in action while you can't even name a successful anarchist territory, yet claim the Zapatistas do not have the right to differentiate themselves from western "anarchism"?

I respectfully await Blahaj's self-inflicted demise, and for you to study.

path: 0 299146 299925 300017 300714, hotness: undefined, score: 22, children: 12
LadyAutumn -6 points 3 years ago

I'm not arguing with 10 people at once, none of whom are interested in any actual discussion. Please tell me how because I'm an anarchist i don't read books and must be a racist lmao. Good bye 👋

path: 0 299146 299925 300017 300714 300741, hotness: undefined, score: -6, children: 11
simply_surprise 15 points 3 years ago

My cause is the welfare of the working class.

Diabetics dying without insulin after the dissolution of industrial society is apparently good for the working class.

I'm always curious about this when I talk to argumentive anarchists. When was the last time you read a book? Like, any book?

path: 0 299146 299925 300017 300433, hotness: undefined, score: 15, children: 1
LadyAutumn -4 points 3 years ago

Today actually. Reading is almost the only thing I do, besides scroll this website and dilate. Penile inversion recovery takes up most of your free time, and the only thing you can really do during most of that time is read or scroll.

path: 0 299146 299925 300017 300433 309976, hotness: undefined, score: -4, children: 0
CPCsStrongestWumao 12 points 3 years ago

i dont want left unity. also, "misinformation?" you're telling me that no anarchists praise the black panthers? that no anarchist praises rosa luxemburg and sankara?

path: 0 299146 299750, hotness: undefined, score: 12, children: 8
LadyAutumn -6 points 3 years ago

I'm not arguing with 10 people at once, none of whom are interested in any actual discussion. Please tell me how because I'm an anarchist i don't read books and must be a racist lmao. Good bye 👋

path: 0 299146 299750 299971, hotness: undefined, score: -6, children: 7
CPCsStrongestWumao 13 points 3 years ago

where are these 'anarchist territories' that are here today?

path: 0 299146 299750 299971 300295, hotness: undefined, score: 13, children: 6
LadyAutumn -7 points 3 years ago

I'm not arguing with 10 people at once, none of whom are interested in any actual discussion. Please tell me how because I'm an anarchist i don't read books and must be a racist lmao. Good bye 👋

path: 0 299146 299750 299971 300295 300307, hotness: undefined, score: -7, children: 5
mo_ztt -17 points 3 years ago

Why put the Black Panthers in here? 🤨

The Black Panther platform, as I understand it, was:

  • We want freedom. We want power to determine the destiny of our Black Community.
  • We want full employment for our people.
  • We want an end to the robbery by the Capitalists of our Black Community.
  • We want decent housing, fit for shelter of human beings.
  • We want education for our people that exposes the true nature of this decadent American society. We want education that teaches us our true history and our role in the present day society.
  • We want all Black men to be exempt from military service.
  • We want an immediate end to POLICE BRUTALITY and MURDER of Black people.
  • We want freedom for all Black men held in federal, state, county and city prisons and jails.
  • We want all Black people when brought to trial to be tried in court by a jury of their peer group or people from their Black Communities, as defined by the Constitution of the United States.
  • We want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace.

The Juche platform is:

  • We must give our all in the struggle to unify the entire society with the revolutionary ideology of the Great Leader Kim Il Sung.
  • We must honor the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung with all our loyalty.
  • We must make absolute the authority of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
  • We must make the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung's revolutionary ideology our faith and make his instructions our creed.
  • We must adhere strictly to the principle of unconditional obedience in carrying out the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung's instructions.
  • We must strengthen the entire party's ideology and willpower and revolutionary unity, centering on the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
  • We must learn from the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung and adopt the communist look, revolutionary work methods and people-oriented work style.
  • We must value the political life we were given by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung, and loyally repay his great political trust and thoughtfulness with heightened political awareness and skill.
  • We must establish strong organizational regulations so that the entire party, nation and military move as one under the one and only leadership of the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung.
  • We must pass down the great achievement of the revolution by the Great Leader comrade Kim Il Sung from generation to generation, inheriting and completing it to the end.
path: 0 238390, hotness: undefined, score: -17, children: 18
simply_surprise 20 points 3 years ago

The Black Panthers were complimentary of the DPRK, and had warm relations with them:

https://archive.ph/QYo19

I don't think your quote is a summary that really shows what the BPP might've liked about Juche:

The Juche idea was created on the basis of such a practical requirement of the Korean revolution. The revolution is a struggle to meet the masses' desire for independence by enlisting their strength. It is a struggle of the masses to free themselves. When they are armed with the revolutionary idea and united into an organized political force, the masses can emerge victorious in the revolution. The duty of revolutionaries is to go among the popular masses, masters of the revolution. to educate, organize, and inspire them to a struggle. The revolutionary forces, too, should be trained from among the masses, and all problems arising in the revolutionary struggle should likewise be resolved in reliance on their wisdom and strength.

(On the Juche Idea - Kim Jong-Il p7)

I italicized the bit that stood out to me as most like the BPP.

The DPRK is mostly viewed pretty well here, btw. It's not an insult or a smear to align the Black Panthers with them. It's a compliment.

path: 0 238390 254809, hotness: undefined, score: 20, children: 7
mo_ztt -10 points 3 years ago

The DPRK is mostly viewed pretty well here, btw.

Why is that?

path: 0 238390 254809 255684, hotness: undefined, score: -10, children: 6
simply_surprise 18 points 3 years ago

I'm not in a big argumentative mood today, so I'd like to avoid any big debates if that's ok! :)

Lemmygrad is mostly Marxist-Leninist communists, and the DPRK is usually seen as adapting MLism to their conditions.

When you start to dig into the U$ understanding of the DPRK, you'll start to see that most of the negative, weird, news we read about them is either attributed to anonymous sources or directly comes from the CIA. Most of the insane, hard to believe stuff is pretty likely to be untrue.

The conditions in the DPRK aren't perfect, but they're a direct result of being under siege for something like 90 years, sanctioned (literally) to death by the U$, and having something like 80% of all standing structures obliterated during the Korean war. It's hard, but it looks like they're making the best of what they can.

If you're curious, I'm happy to try to dig up some of the source threads from here and reddit. They've been talked about before!

path: 0 238390 254809 255684 256077, hotness: undefined, score: 18, children: 5
mo_ztt -1 points 3 years ago

Sure, send me some threads if you're okay with that. I'm not looking for argument if you don't want it, but I definitely don't agree out of the gate with your assertion. I've read negative stories about the DPRK in all kinds of journalistic outlets that aren't anonymous and that I wouldn't expect to be CIA-influenced.

There are countries where I would 100% agree with your assessment of where the blame lies for their situation (Cuba is probably the prime example), but North Korea isn't one of them. Send me the source threads, I'm curious.

path: 0 238390 254809 255684 256077 256487, hotness: undefined, score: -1, children: 4
absentthereaper 16 points 3 years ago
path: 0 238390 239070, hotness: undefined, score: 16, children: 5
simply_surprise 14 points 3 years ago

They were at least very complimentary of Juche. This article has a few more quotes of primary sources (though it's a bit anti-communist):

https://archive.ph/QYo19

The Juche ideal centers on relying on the creativity of the people to adapt to their situation. It's hard to say they didn't adopt Juche if they say they're influenced by it, and Juche isn't a rigid structure.

path: 0 238390 239070 254548, hotness: undefined, score: 14, children: 0
simply_surprise 7 points 3 years ago

It seems to have been specifically Eldridge Cleaver, who had a kid in the DPRK. I didn't read this whole article, but it claims:

After Cleaver's enthusiasm for Maoism waned, he looked to the North Korean ideology of Juche and sought to apply it to the unique situation of African Americans in the United States.

https://apjjf.org/...

There's a paywalled pdf I found that might point to the original source, but I'll have to play with it later.

I feel like I read an archive of a Black Panther article saying they followed Juche, but I'll have to track it down.

path: 0 238390 239070 253725, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 0
mo_ztt 3 points 3 years ago

Agreed, I'd like to see it as well. Because to me, it sounds a lot like this type of smear that's common in American politics. "You gave an award one time to this POET who also advocated for BLOWING UP THIS BUILDING so clearly you support everything he said, so you're a terrorist!"

The specific assertion was that the BPP "aligned themselves with the Juche ideology of Kim Il Sung." I'm asking, is that accurate? Or did they just talk and were they both generally socialist in nature?

path: 0 238390 239070 239853, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 2
ksynwa 4 points 3 years ago

How is it a smear? Both are groups fighting against genocidal Yankees. It makes sense for them to have solidarity with each other.

path: 0 238390 239070 239853 244906, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1
mo_ztt 0 points 3 years ago

What?

They both talked about self-reliance and socialist values, but as far as I can tell, the similarity ends there.

The Panthers were fighting against very real systems of violent oppression in the US government and society, and god bless them for it. The DPRK is, in the modern day, a very real system of violent oppression. I'm not sure what they started out as back in the 1960s, but my vague impression is that even at that stage it was something pretty similar (with a bunch of rhetoric about how just was their cause). Do you know their reality back then to be something different from the reality right now?

path: 0 238390 239070 239853 244906 252597, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
ksynwa 10 points 3 years ago

They were on amicable terms with each other

path: 0 238390 239125, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 0
Weinus 8 points 3 years ago

"Juche is a political ideology that serves as the guiding principle of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), commonly known as North Korea. It was developed by the country's first leader, Kim Il-sung, and is still upheld by subsequent leaders, including Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un.

Juche is often translated as "self-reliance" or "self-determination" and emphasizes the self-reliance and sovereignty of the nation. It promotes the idea that the Korean people are the masters of their own destiny and should rely on their own efforts, resources, and capabilities rather than being dependent on external forces. It encompasses political, economic, and cultural aspects of society.

From the perspective of the DPRK and its citizens, Juche emphasizes the importance of independence and the pursuit of their own unique path. It places great significance on the Korean people's revolutionary spirit and their ability to shape their own destiny. Juche encourages self-sufficiency and the development of domestic industries and resources, aiming to reduce reliance on foreign aid and external influences.

In practical terms, Juche has manifested itself in various policies and practices within North Korea. These include an emphasis on economic self-reliance, the pursuit of nuclear weapons as a means of national defense and deterrence, the promotion of a distinct national identity and culture, and the concept of "military-first politics" (Songun) which prioritizes the military in the allocation of resources.

It's important to note that the understanding and interpretation of Juche can vary depending on who you ask. While the DPRK government presents it as a fundamental principle that guides their policies, some critics argue that Juche is used as a tool for maintaining the regime's control and isolating the country from the rest of the world.

Overall, Juche, from the perspective of the DPRK and its citizens, promotes the idea of self-reliance, independence, and the pursuit of their own unique path in political, economic, and cultural spheres."

One can easily see the parallels with the Panther's approach to self reliance, and community care/defense organizations etc.

path: 0 238390 241695, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 0
nephs 1 point 3 years ago
path: 0 238390 245319, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
nephs 2 points 3 years ago

Hey, you are here! You are a tankie, now, welcome!

There’s an actual made-up tank for everyone, don’t forget to claim yours in the reception. And don’t forget to visit the infighting community for free for all arguments where the only thing one knows is that everyone else is wrong.

Cheers!

PS: I keep screwing up with posting from multiple instances. D:

path: 0 238390 245319 245418, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
comradeship
comradeship

@lemmygrad.ml

login for more options
263
659
1

Talk about whatever, respecting the rules established by Lemmygrad. Failing to comply with the rules will grant you a few warnings, insisting on breaking them will grant you a beautiful shiny banwall.

A community for comrades to chat and talk about whatever doesn't fit other communities

go to feed...