Tech worker movements grow as threats of RTO, AI loom
a year ago by chobeat to c/technology
They also ignore all the freedom of the lower classes which was won through violence against the upper class.
They weren't just threats, there where riots all over the country.
So no change?
The (attitude) Adjuster goes blam.
You had me until you distilled everything into "capitalism"... Life isn't black and white.
Inb4 the intellectually dishonest response of "but I said 'and friends!'".
So brave
I’m in management now but I say go get ‘em please.
most management I would assume would be with the workers. If your not c suite your nothing.
Stock options and grants are a tool to trick you into accepting lower pay and conflating your interests with those of the capital class. (Speaking as someone who has received both!)
Yeah I would say that is high enough but its pretty up there for stock to be all that significant.
yeah I get that. Im unemployed currently but I know that my rate is much higher than the large majority of folks so I feel kinda guilty in a way but at the same time I have a sickly wife and our household income puts us in the average. My ability to earn more just offsets her inability to earn one. Of course though medical expenses make our expenses higher and as I looked for work I went through the excersise to see how much I needed to make and it just blows me away mainly because medical expenses are a third of the budget. as high as housing although we have about as cheap a housing situation as someone could have nowadays. We have such a topsy turvy crazy society were one can go from being comfortable to destitute or vice versa at practically the drop of a hat but the direction and pressures are downward. Ugh. I do find middle managers tend to work relative to metrics they want to look good and they want the people under them to focus on them. the people under them usually just want to have their stuff working and to clearly know which thing to concentrate on and higher levels also looking to have stuff working but from a larger perspective.
Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives
Fingers and toes crossed, get'em for every last penny!
Oh, I would if I lived in a place which had such movements, believe me... As it is, all I can do is wish for Lady Luck to smile upon those who have the chance! Sure, it's a bad idea to bank everything on luck, but it can never hurt to have some on your side!
Romania. There haven't been any significant developments in this sense around here, at least not as far as I know. Each company around here has a Wagers' Rep of sorts and they gather with other such Reps and discuss wage related stuff, but it's nowhere near as elaborate as a Union, nor has it ever felt significant in any relevant way.
Most people have kinda'... given up on this country. Everyone scrambles to eject themselves abroad as soon as humanly possible. Can't say I blame'em.
True, but for those of us laid off in the past couple years and spent months looking for a new job, I'm not really super eager to stick my head out and rock the boat.
This was the hardest job search I've had to do, even as far as multiple rounds of leetcode, and kind of reminds me of how annoying finding my first dev job as a recent grad. Not really looking to do that again any time soon lol
Though if my company tries to RTO us, it'll be a constructive dismissal for me (I spoke with a lawyer already before) and then I'll have to job search again anyway.
We probably won't get RTO'd though, we've been doing WFH for years here thankfully.
Yeah, then they lose all their best and brightest who are disappearing off to work on their own things.
All these idiot C-suite trash will wind up holding is a bag of yesterday's technology, a mass of obsolete infrastructure and a bunch of brands they've helped destroy.
Eh... You can run a company without the best or brightest nowadays. Mediocrity gets the job done, mostly.
Thousands of companies are out there doing just fine. Maybe 10% if people can be the best and brightest. It's impossible for every company to have them.
The math just doesn't math.
Average performers are just fine.
Do you think every company out there is stacked with the best and brightest? By definition, only a minority of employees can be considered that. Many companies run just fine on mediocrity, it all depends on how they intend to make money. Mediocrity can in many cases be an advantage for a company, if that allows one to set aside any shred of integrity at a shot of accomplishment and praise from executing on the many bullshit and unethical things many corproations bring in cash from.
H1Bs are fine with coming into the office and won’t put up a fight with any corporate policy….
Yup every time I see H1B I replace it in my head with tech slave. They're paid, but the deck is so stacked against them they effectively cannot refuse anything. ANYTHING. A well informed H1B worker might score a chance at permanent residency for some of the abuse they suffer. But mostly it's just years of abuse with very strict rules to get their residency.
Look, I'm kind of an outsider on this conversation because until we get a DaVinci for mechanical work, I'm never going to be WFH, but there's something interesting I've noted with all my programmer friends.
The industrial world, that's where unions are, they're getting pulled out but that's the places unions live. The people working in stores are starting to push hard on unions. My industry, biomed, hasn't really gotten unions off the ground, but it's rumbling. We're a small industry that's so short on people it's just easier to move jobs than start a union, but we're a mix of tech and industrial backgrounds. But the programming tech backgrounds, at least here in the midwest, is apparently so anti-union I don't know how it'd get off the ground from what I'm hearing from my friends. Their coworkers who are mad about RTO will immediately turn around and say the corporate lines about unions. I'm honestly kinda baffled and hope your industry gets it figured out.
Software Engineers should get royalties for their code like actors do. I'd be retired already.
“As a dev myself…”
“Users of my code = donkeys”
Logically, where the fuck does this end other than you sucking your own dick? Just write code for yourself and shut up.
Keep in kind I’m using logic to ask a dev…
Why WOULD ANYONE need to hear your opinion if you think EVERYONE else is a donkey?
They’re fat and lazy enough already. Last thing we need is an SE thinking they sit on IP and the rest of us can fuck off. You write code that others defined and you work WITHIN a system. You are the equivalent of a translator who speaks Spanish. You don’t work magic. Everyone else works in systems we are all asked to consider the business logic beyond simple tasks so fuck off with your snowflakes. I work with so many engineering VPs that you just come off as “special”. You are white gloves special people who demand handling that no one else requests, and for why? Why do you deserve special IP concerns?
Seriously I am tired of engineers being gate keepers while the other two legs of the stool keep this shit together.
Seriously engineers get your shit together as we are all making a product together and you don’t own any more shit then a pm and that’s saying something.
Seriously I am tired of engineers being gate keepers while the other two legs of the stool keep this shit together.
Seriously engineers get your shit together as we are all making a product together
Half my job as a programmer is chasing down the non-devs asking them to explain how they imagined the thing they asked for working, and then trying to find the politest words to say their idea is really bad, all the while trying not to insult their intelligence. The other half is putting out fires that come up all the time because the people who "made the product together" made horrendous decisions about the product design without consulting the devs, or even getting their input. So now we're saddled with mounting technical debt because of a bunch of morons who were convinced they knew more than the people who teach computers to think.
Seriously, half the things I hear non-devs say make me actually wonder about the "average" level of intelligence of our species.
You don’t work magic.
If it wasn't, then you'd be able to do the job.
To you, it IS magic.
Then half of your job is dealing with a shitty company and not being a developer. Half of your job is being wasted on overhead you can’t manage. That is half of your capability wasted on a lack of collaboration. How else to describe it than you are half the dev you could be while you blame everyone else. Shit as a director I’m not mixing words.
What you’re tracing the edges of is not being able manage complexity in a collaborative environment. If you can’t break the problem down part of is on the team but a lot of it is on you. If you want to architect a solution you have to be able to explain it.
That’s antithetical to you keeping on about how shitty (everyone else is) aka the other half of the world.
It’s pretty bad having to explain this to coddled engineers learning how the other half of the company works. Talking as if everyone else doesn’t get it while they can’t even perceive their own bubble. It’s not magic. It’s code. It’s nothing crazy so why be an asshole about it? Why do I get more bs from coders than I do contractors working on my roof? And don’t get me wrong the roofers piss in a shingles box and leave it for me to dispose… My grandfather worked on the Apollo missions so why is C# black fucking magic and suddenly you’re Gandalf? To YOU it’s magic. To the rest of us it’s a fucking job and you talk too much.
Then half of your job is dealing with a shitty company and not being a developer.
Partly correct, but yes.
Half of your job is being wasted on overhead you can’t manage.
Who said I can't manage it?
How else to describe it than you are half the dev you could be while you blame everyone else. Shit as a director I’m not mixing words.
Director? That actually tracks. Believe it or not, but a good 30% to 40% of a dev's work is not writing code. You can't just start screwing 2x4s together and expect a house. There needs to be coordination and collaboration between the devs; and paradoxically, the more devs you have the more time is spent on that collaboration and coordination part. It's called The Mythical Man Month. Something managers and directors haven't been able to get into their heads since the 70s.
If you can’t break the problem down part of is on the team but a lot of it is on you.
Break what problem down? What are you on about?
If you want to architect a solution you have to be able to explain it.
Ya, that's absolutely right. And I've yet to meet a PM that can properly explain what they're looking for. They explain result A, they get result A, then suddenly they actually meant result §∆. Happens every time.
It’s pretty bad having to explain this to coddled engineers learning how the other half of the company works.
I know full well how the other half works. Not a lot of complexity there. 90+% of what's said in meetings could be an email. I bet you're one of those directors that insists the devs have daily check-ins (absolute waste of time) and even have some of the other managers and "stakeholders" join to "ask questions", when anyone who isn't a dev has zero right and business to be there. Those stand-ups are not for you and you're just in the way.
Talking as if everyone else doesn’t get it
They don't. It's that simple.
why be an asshole about it?
Did you really just spit in the face of an entire group and then cry about someone being mean when they called you out? If you're a director, holy crap! I pity and fear for the people who work with you.
Why do I get more bs from coders than I do contractors working on my roof?
I have a theory...
My grandfather worked on the Apollo missions so why is C# black fucking magic and suddenly you’re Gandalf?
Your grandfather sounds like he was a smart guy.
It’s not magic. It’s code
To me it's code and logic. To you it's magic.
Unions will not increase the average wage. They will only even-out wages across the economy. Which means they will increase the lowest wage.
Unions will not solve the social problems in the US. UBI (Universal Basic Income) will solve them.
You need to advocate for UBI. There is no good reason not to have it.
UBI doesn't cost the economy anything. That's no "donating money to poor people". Poor people will immediately spend it on food and housing/apartmenting, which means the money stays (better yet, flows) within the local economy.
The reason the US doesn't have UBI yet isn't because it isn't affordable. It is. The reason UBI wasn't introduced so far yet is because they wanted to scare the people into working harder. It's for psychological reasons, not for real (financial/technical) reasons.
If there is 1 homeless person sitting by the street, people will say "they're lazy and deserve this because they didn't work hard. So i need to work harder". If there's 100 homeless people sitting by the street, people start to realize it's not their fault and the system is at fault; and will demand drastic dramatic changes. UBI is an effective way to prevent that. UBI isn't a choice - it's a necessity for a stable society.
UBI without worker's power and strong unions will just become a leash in the hands of the state to enforce social compliance. Unions and UBIs are not mutually exclusive. Also without strong unions, who do you think will advocate for UBIs? Neo-nazi, billionaires, and other people that want to give the bare minimum to defend the status quo from its collapse. The first to talk about UBI in the USA was Nixon, and it's not by chance. The élites see the UBI as yet another tool to maintain the status quo and their privilege, giving scraps to the rest and subduing the state to make their own interest. UBI is a technical tool and therefore, by itself, it doesn't solve social problems or shifts power. The shift of power should happen contextually to the introduction of the UBI, otherwise, it will just turn into yet another way to oppress the working class.
I see your point. I think i understand the individual arguments and just for the sake of clarity i would like to list them again:
- UBI would make the people dependent on government approval.
I think this depends on whether it's properly implemented. If it's properly implemented, it's Universal and does therefore not depend on social compliance.
- UBI is a technical tool and therefore, by itself, it doesn’t solve social problems
I disagree. Giving resources to people solves problems, including housing, education, and medical care. Maybe the details of where and how to allocate the resources need more elaboration.
Maybe this is a misunderstanding because what i mean by UBI is "give resources to the people that they can use for everyday life without expecting something in return". In so far, public schooling or public healthcare are also a form of UBI for me.
- Neo-nazi, billionaires, and other people that want to give the bare minimum to defend the status quo from its collapse.
Actually, I would like to keep the system from collapsing. If it does collapse, it will cause devastating harm on not only you, but all of society, probably turning it into ruins and a state-beyond-return.
- The shift of power should happen contextually to the introduction of the UBI
Realistically, that's not gonna happen. There's not gonna be a "worker's revolution" in the US. The rich take it all, leaving nothing for the poor. Dreams of a "revolution" are fairytales people tell themselves at night to sleep easier. If you really want change and to improve lifes, advocate for UBI. It really helps.
I think this depends on whether it’s properly implemented. If it’s properly implemented, it’s Universal and does therefore not depend on social compliance.
No system willingly surrender its power. Any implementation of UBI in the current power structure will just reproduce the current power structure.
I disagree. Giving resources to people solves problems, including housing, education, and medical care. Maybe the details of where and how to allocate the resources need more elaboration.
If this happens in a way that benefit people, it means the power shift already happened and the UBI is just the consequence of it, not the cause. The hard problem is the power shift, not the details of the UBI, that are reduced to a technical problem. Technical solutions follow from a rearrangement of society, not the other way around, despite what hackerinos and techbros believe.
Actually, I would like to keep the system from collapsing. If it does collapse, it will cause devastating harm on not only you, but all of society, probably turning it into ruins and a state-beyond-return.
The current system based on consumption, growth, and the industrial/post-industrial productive mode is unsustainable. It's going to collapse regardless of UBI. Conservatives and reactionaries are so supportive of UBI exactly because it has the power to extend the "business as usual" a little longer, until bigger factors like soil exhaustion, climate collapse, biosphere collapse, oil EROI and other major factors will eventually make our mode of living unfeasible. That's not an argument against UBI per se, but we should be wary of how it can be appropriated to make our life worse and this is a very concrete consequence. UBI as a starting step (good) vs UBI as a pacifier (bad).
Realistically, that’s not gonna happen. There’s not gonna be a “worker’s revolution” in the US. The rich take it all, leaving nothing for the poor. Dreams of a “revolution” are fairytales people tell themselves at night to sleep easier. If you really want change and to improve lifes, advocate for UBI. It really helps.
I'm not a revolutionary. I don't believe revolutions have ever happened. I also don't believe a major political change is going to happen in fascist USA anytime soon, unless Trump really fucks up his game. Sometimes there are just no good moves.
Maybe up until they stopped having "don't be evil" as their company motto?
@lemmy.world
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related news or articles.
- Be excellent to each other!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
- Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.
Approved Bots
go to feed...
@lemmy.world
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related news or articles.
- Be excellent to each other!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, this includes using AI responses and summaries. To ask if your bot can be added please contact a mod.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
- Accounts 7 days and younger will have their posts automatically removed.
Approved Bots
go to feed...
I had a shower thought the other day that if more CEOs were shot dead, there'd probably be less Return to Office.
People are sometimes like "oh but violence is bad!" but ignore all the casual harms inflicted on people by capitalism and friends.
save