Solarpunk

8 months ago by Salamence to c/memes

HiddenLayer555 51 points 8 months ago

We discussed those green skyscrapers in university environment class, and as far as I know they didn't work that well. It was hard to keep the plants alive and when they did grow, they became a breeding ground for pest insects that got into the units where people were living. It's very much prioritizing looking green over being green.

IMO it's better to just have efficient but visually boring skyscrapers, and then have dedicated green space around clusters of density (which is what China is mostly doing nowadays). Separating housing and green space make both more effective, easier to manage, and more resiliant.

Also, in case you're wondering, most Western environment profs are very impressed by what China has done, at least in the university I went to.

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hector 7 points 8 months ago

Skyscrapers seem a waste and vulnerability compared to the traditional 10 story style brick, or preferably stone, buildings typical in cities before skyscrapers. Some are bigger than 10 stories, and they can be built earthquake safe same as skyscrapers, the first earthquake safe designs of which that I'm aware of happened after the San Francisco area earthquake some time around the turn of the 20th century that leveled the large buildings. But I'm sure there were prior methods probably dating to antiquity in the middle east and elsewhere.

One method was to build a sort of pool over the build area, a solid container, with sand and the like inside, and building on top of that, vibrations would be absorbed by the sand. There are other methods too but they can be employed by both skyscrapers and masonary buildings.

As to size, the city hall building in philadelphia is the larges I believe, a magnificent building, with statues at levels going up with William Penn at the top. Ornate and decorative too, very unlike the brutalist architecture of today's city leaders. Compare the subway of any european capital city, from moscow to paris, to new york or DC's subway. Our leaders have no style, all the money for overinflated contrancts, and more money than any, but none for style or art built into it.

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HiddenLayer555 11 points 8 months ago

I agree, I didn't want to change the premise too much in my original comment, but ideally you'd do some complicated math to determine the optimal height for your location, building materials, and population density.

I don't know what that calculation would look like in China because I don't live there (I'm sure the Chinese engineers are well aware of those calculations though) but in my country it would definitely be a lot closer to the 10 story range, maybe even lower.

Either way, something us in the West absolutely NEED to get used to is prefab buildings that all look the same. A bunch of prefab skyscrapers like China has is still worlds ahead of the logistical nightmare of demanding every single building be custom designed like is so common here. You call it boring, I call it efficient. Having a few reusable designs (usually different heights) to choose from and copy paste building housing, like what China does, is what we need first, IMO, and then we can talk about the optimal heights for those prefab buildings.

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hector 2 points 8 months ago

Yeah, functionality comes first and we've a lack of housing. But we should add some art to that functionality as we go as we are able, but a solid structure reproduced a million times comes first. Waiting on private interests to do it is a fool's errand it appears. Capital has colluded to keep the housing stock overpriced, with hedge funds and private equity buying a significant percent of all consumer housing, 15 percent just as of 2018, likely higher now.

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HiddenLayer555 4 points 8 months ago

I'm partial to leaving decorating buildings to the residents who live there. Something like community murals and art projects on the prefab blank canvas that reflect the people and community those buildings foster. IDK, something about a lot of modern ornamentation commercial developers create feel even colder than no ornamentation at all, but that's just a personal opinion.

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felixwhynot 42 points 8 months ago

Eh… I’m not sold by this. For me the “punk” aspect is about people taking hopeful actions that go against the grain. Focusing on the authority of any government is a pretty weak sell. Let’s cultivate hope in people!

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orc_princess 28 points 8 months ago

People don't just need hope, they need education, safety nets, access to healthcare, job security. Going against the grain won't magically change any of these things.

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Cowbee 2 points 8 months ago

In China, the government is run by the people. The people of China collaboratively chart a course for the future, towards a hopeful course of development, based on scientific socialism. In being a socialist country, China is taking actions that go against the grain, focusing on mutual development, industrialization, and prosperity.

In China, they have direct elections for local representatives, which elect further "rungs," laddering to the top. The top then has mass polling and opinion gathering. This combination of top-down and bottom-up democracy ensures effective results. For more on this, see Professor Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. This system is remarkably effective, resulting in over 90% approval rates.

Is it not punk to radically “abolish the present state of things,” as Marx says, and which the PRC is steadfastly working towards? Hell, Rage Against the Machine has even quoted Mao.

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kittenzrulz123 15 points 8 months ago

Its insane how Liberals will see a well functioning society and decide they would rather live under the dictatorship of capital

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Cowbee 9 points 8 months ago

Largely stems from chauvinism that hasn't been confronted yet. They realize that capitalism is bad, but they still believe that it's impossible for anyone to be doing better than the west.

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LeninWeave 2 points 8 months ago

chauvanism

BTW it's "chauvinism". I don't mean to be an asshole, I just see this incorrect spelling of this specific word very often. 100% agree with your comment.

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Dr_Vindaloo 12 points 8 months ago

Love how this has 15 downvotes but not a single reply 💀

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dessalines 20 points 8 months ago

I just banned like 6 of them, dead or no-content accounts.

Liberals using bot accounts to try to manipulate public opinion (as they do on reddit and the rest of the western internet), is gonna be one of the bigger problems in the fediverse for the foreseeable future, so we have to stay ahead of it.

At this point they're just targeting specific ppl like @Cowbee@lemmy.ml, but they'll eventually start doing it en masse.

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Cowbee 14 points 8 months ago

Figured that may have been the case, considering it was a reasonable comment getting heavily downvoted in a thread where other pro-PRC comments weren't as inorganically downvoted.

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Cowbee 19 points 8 months ago

That's pretty common, actually. People would rather silently downvote than try to actually engage with academic literature regarding the PRC's democratic process.

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KimBongUn420 13 points 8 months ago

Hexbear stays winning with the removed downvote, which forces you to reply if you disagree with the content

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hector 1 point 8 months ago
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starik 9 points 8 months ago

That looks more like spider punk

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frightful_hobgoblin 1 point 8 months ago

Why not just say you're against solarpunk? Why try to twist solarpunk to be something it's not?

Have you forgotten all about me:

cmnd-marcos-pog

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Cowbee 20 points 8 months ago

My problem with Solarpunk is that it's an aesthetics-first movement. I appreciate solar and believe it to be necessary, I just believe that theory and practice need to form the base of any movement.

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frightful_hobgoblin 5 points 8 months ago

Punk has always had an ethos

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Cowbee 16 points 8 months ago

I'm aware, but Solarpunk specifically, from what I've read from the people pushing the movement, tends to lack theoretical and practical basis, closer to early utopianism than a scientific form of socialism.

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frightful_hobgoblin 0 points 8 months ago

That's deliberate.

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TropicalDingdong 1 point 8 months ago

Solar punk or solar authoritarianism?

Solar punk is "real" as in, plenty people living off grid on solar, catchment, whatever. China does seem to be making whatever theyre doing become a thing. And its great. Cheap energy probably the most effective path to world peace. If we can get the price to "effectively 0" we can solve just about everything.

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techpeakedin1991 12 points 8 months ago

How would you produce solar panels when living "off grid"? You need a large, integrated economy to be able to produce such complicated hardware. This is why solar punk is fundamentally an elitist ideology. You look down your nose on "authoritarians", and have a holier-than-thou attitude toward them, but the society you envision is impossible without them.

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Einskjaldi 0 points 8 months ago

Solar panels last a long time and in 30 years or so we will have enough to power the world for a century.

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Cowbee 4 points 8 months ago

What distinguishes "punk" from "authoritarian?" Is it not punk to radically "abolish the present state of things," as Marx says, and which the PRC is steadfastly working towards? What makes the PRC "authoritarian" in a way that makes it unacceptable?

I'm also unconvinced that energy prices at effectively 0 will solve everything either, class struggle remains, and we will all have to follow in the footsteps of countries like China in overthrowing the bourgeoisie, as they did in 1949.

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MrMobius -4 points 8 months ago
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dessalines 13 points 8 months ago

Zenz-maxxing

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Cowbee 8 points 8 months ago

They aren't? Not only is the idea of mass Uyghur slave labor atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there's "white genocide" in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood, but the PRC is an incredibly industrialized country and as such doesn't have a need for slavery. Slavery in general is a horribly inefficient system fir anything other than agrarian production, which is why the Statesian North liberated the slaves in the south, for more wage-laboring industrial workers.

In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of "genocide." Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.

The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective's Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.

I also recommend reading the UN report and China's response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.

Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn't going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.

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boonhet -7 points 8 months ago path: 0 21925591 21927263 21928760, hotness: undefined, score: -7, children: 1
Cowbee 9 points 8 months ago

Purchasing power in China goes much farther, real wages are much higher than 3 euro equivalent, and that's for minimum wage, not median. High working hours in office work are a problem to work on, yes, but not one with no signs of improvement. The PRC is a socialist economy with heavy union presence. The large firms and key industries are publicly owned, ie public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy. The US Empire can't compete with China because it hollowed out its own industry in favor of outsourcing it and imperializing the global south.

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MrMobius -8 points 8 months ago

"Re-education", that's one way to describe what they do in these camps. And please stop deflecting with "the West did way worse" arguments. To me, China is just as bad as the West.

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Cowbee 12 points 8 months ago

Re-education is also the correct way to describe the vocational schools. I'm not deflecting in mentioning the west, the utility in pointing out how the west deals with extremism is to show that allegations of slave labor and genocide are projection. I understand that you think China is just as bad as the west, the problem is that your reasoning for believing that is based entirely on what the west lies to you about China.

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KimBongUn420 11 points 8 months ago

stop deflecting with “the West did way worse” arguments.

It's not deflection dipshit. Why is the US arming ETIM separatist terrorists? What is the PRC supposed to do when you have radicalized islamists running around killing people in your opinion? Bomb a random country like the US did amrite?

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Amnesigenic 10 points 8 months ago

Clueless

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zd9 -4 points 8 months ago

Ew. Fuck China. I do admire that they can just do stuff when needed, but again that's just a function of authoritarianism and the surveillance state keeping everyone in line for Big Brother. The current US government is almost as bad overall, better in some ways, worse in some ways. There are a lot of state governments that are doing good stuff in terms of solarpunk and democratic socialism though.

edit: I forgot I was on ml and anything short of blind cult-following of any even remotely communist state is despised. China isn't really even communist, no more than the NSDAP was socialist.

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KimBongUn420 8 points 8 months ago

In the most abstract sense: Is organisation without authority possible?

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frightful_hobgoblin -3 points 8 months ago

In a concrete sense, yes

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KimBongUn420 7 points 8 months ago path: 0 21924215 21924738 21928717 21928754, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 22
frightful_hobgoblin -3 points 8 months ago

What appeals to you about that text?

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Mangoholic -6 points 8 months ago

Authoritarian solarpunk. But really it shows the issues of anarchism, works in small scale but is fragile when scaled. The probably most efficient government form would be a dictatorship of the wise.

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PolandIsAStateOfMind 13 points 8 months ago

The probably most efficient government form would be a dictatorship of the wise.

This is just aristocracy with no extra steps, just other name.

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Mangoholic 1 point 8 months ago

You missunderstand then by wise i mean experts in there fields not rich dudes. And the selection process could be democratic aswell.

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PolandIsAStateOfMind 1 point 8 months ago

Oh, so much like China now.

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Mangoholic 1 point 8 months ago

Well china is a lot more efficient and faster. You can criticise other aspects of it ofc.

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Einskjaldi 2 points 8 months ago

Solar panels and computer chips need large complex centralized factories, but that is basically 0%of the Land so there's no problem with having both, as long as you don't pretend that your solar powered homestead isn't dependent on inputs like that.

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flyby 1 point 8 months ago

That’s an interesting topic btw - what is the way for any dictatorship to work well for everyone’s benefit in theory? If it’s dictatorship of the wise, would smartest people get put into place with absolute power? Is it an expectation that people currently in power pass power voluntarily to wiser people? Would there be a framework that determines wisest people and it would be decided upon by the popular consensus? Isn’t it technically still a democracy if people trust in the framework/system that governs how smartest people are decided upon?

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Mangoholic 1 point 8 months ago

A democratic process could be used for selection, but you would also need to limit corruption by taking any incentive from the people in power. Like it is not possible for them to gain more than the median all others in a nation have for the rest if their lives. A good incentive to govern with the future in mind, because you only improve your future when you improve everyones. Another the prestige ofc.

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beelzebum -12 points 8 months ago

Ths is sad

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Cowbee 10 points 8 months ago

How so?

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Cruel -13 points 8 months ago
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umbrella 20 points 8 months ago
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Cruel -7 points 8 months ago
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Cowbee 16 points 8 months ago

Cult of Personality / Leader. From Mao to Xi Jinping, the allegiance to their leaders is much more strongly enforced when compared to Trump. US has term limits and doesn’t even permit a “leader for life.”

Term limits are anti-democratic, and are put in place in bourgeois democracy to prevent left-wing leaders from lasting long enough to overhaul the system, effectively gutting any radical change. Mao and Xi are both examples of extremely popular leaders, far moreso than Trump, Macron, Starmer, etc.

Radical Nationalism. The “Chinese Dream” and “Great Rejuvenation of the Chinese Nation” emphasize righting the wrongs of the “Century of Humiliation.” This is often exclusionary, emphasizing Han Chinese identity over others. US has a broader international identity and is much less isolationist.

Han Chinese are not placed above ethnic minorities in the PRC or non-Chinese externally. The PRC has strong minority representation at the state level, and legal protections for them. The PRC isn't isolationist either, it trades and partners with practically everyone, especially the global south. The US Empire brutally oppresses ethnic minorities, and is dominated by old, white men at the state level. The US Empire is also imperialist, and interventionist, while being extremely nationalist.

Control of Media. China maintains the world’s most sophisticated digital censorship system (The Great Firewall). All domestic media is state-aligned. Under the principle of Dang Guan Meiti (“The Party controls the media”), all news outlets in China are legally considered the “mouthpiece” of the Communist Party.

The Great Firewall isn't censorship, it's to promote domestic internet production and infrastructure so as to not be reliant on the west. The CPC does censor liberals, capitalists, and fascists, whereas the west censors communists and the working classes.

Economic Corporatism. While corporate lobbying is very strong in the US, they still have an adversarial relationship. Corporations will often do stuff like suing the US government. Meanwhile in China, all corporations are required to have CCP cells and align their goals with state national interests. They effectively seized control of corporations for nationalistic purposes (epitome of fascism).

This is where you highlight how little you understand fascism. The US Empire is driven by private ownership, corporations dominate the state. This is fascism. In the PRC, private property is subservient to the public sector and to the state. The CPC controls what capitalists can do, not the other way around, because the CPC is communist.

Suppression of Labor. All labor unions must belong to the state-sanctioned All-China Federation of Trade Unions. Independent strikes and labor organizing are illegal and strictly suppressed. There are strong anti-union sentiments in the US, but independent unionizing is still very much legally permitted.

Labor isn't suppressed, the PRC restricts independent organizations that can be steered by the west in favor of fully integrating unions into the socialist system itself, in the form of the All-China Federation of Trade Unions. Unions in the US Empire are extremely weakened and the state sides with capital over them.

You fundamentally do not know what fascism is because you think it's public ownership.

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Cruel -10 points 8 months ago

Term limits are anti-democratic, and are put in place in bourgeois democracy to prevent left-wing leaders from lasting long enough to overhaul the system, effectively gutting any radical change. Mao and Xi are both examples of extremely popular leaders, far moreso than Trump, Macron, Starmer, etc.

First part is true. Though it's ironic considering people are calling it fascism for Trump to hint at a third term, while Xi removed constitutional term limits so he could stay in power.

While term limits restrict voter choice, the complete absence of opposition parties restricts it far more. "Popularity" is functionally unmeasurable in a system without free press or competitive elections. You cannot accurately gauge approval ratings when disapproval is criminalized. Removing term limits without adding checks and balances historically leads to autocracy, not "radical change" as it entrenches a specific elite rather than the working class.

The Great Firewall isn't censorship, it's to promote domestic internet production and infrastructure so as to not be reliant on the west. The CPC does censor liberals, capitalists, and fascists, whereas the west censors communists and the working classes.

The "protectionism" argument fails because the Firewall blocks information, not just competitors. Blocking Wikipedia, news regarding 1989, or criticisms of the leadership has zero economic benefit. It is strictly political thought control.

Conversely, Communist parties are legal in the US. They run candidates and publish newspapers. In China, advocating for independent Marxist unions (like the Jasic Incident student group) gets you arrested. The state suppresses unauthorized leftists just as harshly as liberals.

This is where you highlight how little you understand fascism. The US Empire is driven by private ownership, corporations dominate the state. This is fascism. In the PRC, private property is subservient to the public sector and to the state. The CPC controls what capitalists can do, not the other way around, because the CPC is communist.

You are confusing Fascism with Plutocracy or Oligarchy. Fascism, by definition (as articulated by Mussolini and Gentile, or practiced by the Nazis), is the State dominating the corporation, not the other way around. Fascism seeks to merge corporate and state power under the direction of the state to serve national interests. This describes the Chinese model (statist control of capital) far more accurately than the US model (capitalist influence over the state). If the state commands the corporation, that aligns with the structural mechanics of fascism, regardless of whether the state calls itself "Communist."

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Edie 14 points 8 months ago

US has term limits and doesn’t even permit a “leader for life.”

Lol. Lmao even.

US has a broader international identity

I would say "lol, lmao even," but the horrors inflicted on all the non-whites in the US is not a laughing matter.

and is much less isolationist.

Sure would be better if it was.

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Cruel -10 points 8 months ago

Everything I said is true and you didn't refute any of it. You do realize that, if you have nothing to say, you don't have to post, right?

Trump has been leader for 5 years, and will cease leadership in 3 years. Xi has been in power since 2012 and can be leader for the rest of his life.

Now please explain how US is NOT less isolationist than China. This should be good. 🤣

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umbrella 12 points 8 months ago
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Cruel -12 points 8 months ago

state directed + corporatism + extreme nationalism + state control of press and labor + lifetime leader

Name a single thing about the US that is more fascistic than China. I'm willing to concede that such a thing might exist.

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LemmeAtEm 10 points 8 months ago

Since people here seem to disagree

Since people here have seen all this sinophobic propaganda countless times already and thoroughly debunked it all, you're going to go ahead and confidently spew tired, gullible U.S. State Department talking points and lies to be debunked yet again for the umpteenth time because you're either painfully naive and depressingly uneducated or you have an explicit pro-U.S. anti-China agenda you're desperately trying to spread.

Yeah, we know, dronie.

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m532 15 points 8 months ago

Neoliberals so far gone, they attack fascism from the right! "fascism is when foreigners"

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hector 1 point 8 months ago

They try to out fascist the fascists, by being total monsters but pretending to have "concern" about Israel, or workers rights, or anything. As if everyone really wanted to be exploited by corporations but with gay marriage and token actions taken in their favor while workers are further stripped by the super rich.

The answer is to run a populist alternative, not a fake populism like the Right that scapegoats, one that accurately identifies the villains and the problems they cause, and gives a solution that can actually work.

They are hopeless, and until you realize the "liberals" are controlled opposition of the oligarchy, chosen to be weak, to not upset the license further garnered by rich every term, it doesn't make sense as to why they would suck so bad.

It's really true though, chosen to be weak, chosen to cave to the other aggressive party, to not change anything back let alone make it better. Just emptly platitudes, perfunctionary efforts at fulfilling promises, a lack of any real politik, and a reason for being of preventing popular reform while being the party of popular reform.

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ZeroHora 10 points 8 months ago

Because you definitely knows what fascism is

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RiverRock 9 points 8 months ago

-Guy who totally knows what fascism is

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Cowbee 9 points 8 months ago

No? China is a socialist country. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the working classes control the state. Fascism is the diametric opposite, it's private ownership as principle and capitalists in charge of the state, ie capitalism, when it needs to violently break up labor organizing and force austerity due to capitalist decay.

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Cruel -11 points 8 months ago

Fascist economies seize control of property for nationalistic purposes. Only difference between communism is that they still defer to private property owners while the regime ultimately controls it, as opposed to "the people" owning it.

This is China. They control all their industry for nationalistic purposes. They have a cult of personality leader. Literally every textbook indicator of fascism.

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Cowbee 12 points 8 months ago

All modern economies have some degree of a public/private split, even the DPRK has special economic zones like Rason. The difference between capitalism (which fascism is a derivative of) and socialism is which aspect of the economy is principle, private or public, and which class is in control of the state, capitalists or workers. In China, public ownership is principle and the state is under the control of the working classes.

The PRC does use nationalized industry and resources for their own benefit, as does every single country, with the partial exception of colonized and imperialized countries that are exploited by the west. Xi Jinping is popular, but doesn't have a cult of personality. I don't know what textbook you're reading, but if it's telling you that public ownership is fascist you should probably discard it.

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Cruel -7 points 8 months ago

I'm saying "if it looks and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck." You're saying "if it says it's not a duck, it's not."

How is the Chinese economy not fascist corporatism? Because they call it "public ownership"? The CCP mandates all corporations have CCP cells that align with their national interests. They still defer to private property owners who often become very wealthy. (see: Jack Ma). How does a socialist country have people worth almost $30 billion? This is no more socialism than Nazi's Nat Socs (or rather, it's equally socialism).

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