Libertarian left are Anarchists, not tankies. Authoritarian left are tankies.
Is this purposefully trying to conflate Anarchists with Tankies? They're pretty fundamentally opposed.
I like the municipalist flavour of libertarianism, so you don't need to tell me what it is 😅.
I had the meme laying around, so I have no idea what the maker of it had in mind. I posted it with the prediction that there will be a lot of calling people libs in the comments under this post, and I wanted to make fun of that ahead of the time.
You mean libertarian like anti-authoritan? People with that attitude [tankies] can't handle any form of freedom and will always simp for a Führer who thinks for them.
I'm using the actual meaning of libertarian, so yes in part like anti-authoritarian. BTW, I hate that there's even a need for clarification, American free-market liberals using 'libertarian' to describe their ideal of laissez-faire capitalism is so annoying.
Ya same here in Germany with the liberal (markets) party. But they erased themselves from the parliaments
How convenient that the biggest "human rights abuses" are coming from the geopolitical enemies of the western capitalist class.
Further, kind of hypocritical to make a meme that simultaneously champions leftism and "human rights" - a term that Marx decried as bourgeois, and really isn't used in class analysis. It's an idealistic way of viewing power and rights.
In order to understand Marx’s position within the history of the Rights of Man, one needs to understand On the Jewish Question in its entire logical connectivity: as a grand scheme within which the critique of the Rights of Man fits contextually. In this essay, Marx launched his first attack on “civil society” and its impact in fostering “egoistic life”; he avowed that “man […] leads a two-fold life, a heavenly and earthly life: life in the political community, in which he considers himself a communal being, and life in civil society, in which he acts as a private individual.” Since the sphere of egoism, in all its “abstract” arbitrariness, separates man from his community, and since the State was the political child of civil society, Marx wrote, the only way to destroy both was to destroy the parent: civil society. It followed, then, that the Rights of Man, which demonstrated an ontological conflict yet still existed in a “spiritual” relation with the State, were consequently “nothing but the rights of a member of a civil society, i.e., the rights of egoistic man, of man separated from other men and from the community.”
Given that the Rights of Man were political rights, they were deeply ingrained within the illusory sovereignty of the State. And since the State was the child of civil society—the society which Marx wished the demise of—the Rights of Man would be automatically abolished along with them. It is made obvious here that the establishment of a political state devoid of concepts such as law, privileges, and rights should become the only way to achieve the final stage desirable for society: a stage described by a political program leading to the emancipation of mankind and resulting in a recognition of their species-being, all to the detriment of bourgeois ideology.
Allen Buchanan has taken this argument even further by claiming that the goal of Marx’s critique of ideology was to highlight the fact that “capitalist conceptions of justice, like other juridical conceptions, presuppose certain factual generalizations which are usually taken for granted.” These generalizations present themselves as an illusion of symmetry between the worker and the exploiter—the free competitive market—that the capitalist puts in place. The free competitive market was, according to Marx, supported and maintained by the Rights of Man that had been articulated in the French and American constitutions. These rights were not eternal truths about the nature of man. Making an example of the right to liberty, Marx saw such rights as the root cause of “the separation of man from man.”
This meme is not leftist. This meme is textbook liberalism.
i agree that the entire language of rights is bad for freedom and equality. i have a different approach but marx got there before me, published widely and articulately, and i may as well use this passage when i bring it up.
great comment.
Amazing, every word of what you just said was cringe.
Not sure why you brought up Marx here, a man who has more in common with anarchists than with tanies.
I also didn't even read your quote of some random other person lol. Stop your weird idolisation kink and just say what you mean
Wow I don't think you could satarize a lib response as good as this, bravo. Keep up the good fight against literacy comrade, big words are scary and so are new thoughts.
First "tankies" is a meaningless term and even plenty of anarchists are against "rights" as a concept.
Listen - I'm a liberal. I'm leaning left, but after reading some Big T Theory, I realize how individualism-pilled you and I are. Marx's theory really is alien to us.
I don't agree with it. Maybe that'll change in the future, but I'm not there now. But I'm here to say this to you: you don't know what you're talking about, and your meme really is just "scoring points for my team". Regardless of whoever is liberal or communal in philosophy, the real sin here is that everyone's disgust with each other here is based on a refusal to learn.
This is what tankies do. They have 0 ability of actually being able to argue with you. They just slap you with walls of text copy pasted from some book or article and call it a day.
You default to insults a lot when you have no coherent responses.
Well, that's my schedule packed for the week...
What the hell even is a "tankie" its a meanigless buzzword used for a million different things. I'm an anarchist and you get accused of being a "tankie" for critizing imperialism or saying obvouis propaganda lies spread by Falun Gong isn't something we should be spreading or critizing democrats.
"Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof." Taken from the wikipedia article on "Tankie". The term originated to criticize self-declared communists and/or socialists who supported the Soviet use of tanks to crush the Hungarian revolution of 1956.
So much this. As an opponent of nation states i have a lot of disagreements with proponents of powerful states.
But i spend my time online denigrating fascists, the actual enemy, who are in power in my country and ascendant globally.
I don't waste my time denigrating all the potential allies on one side of me as libs and on the side as tankies.
Exactly. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and what not. There’s certainly a narrower divide to cross, anyways. I know my misguided racist neighbor and I have way more in common than we do with billionaires. The billionaires know that too.
Why do they want authority though? Do you think it makes a difference that their desire for power is motivated by the goal of liberating all working people and ending the global capitalist ecocide? Do you truly believe a worldview wherein ALL people deserve to free, fed and healthy, is the same as social darwinism that seeks to destroy the subhuman and weak 'others'?
I wonder how many of these memes aimed at dividing the left
What's the point of "dividing" two things that are already violently incompatible?
I am starting to absolutely despise the term "leftist" because it has basically evolved to mean "my specific leftist values at this exact moment in time". And anyone that disagrees with me is a "tankie" or a "liberal".
It's such a useless term to begin with. But at least in the past it could be term to include anyone that had class consciousness and was anti capitalist. Now, it's just used to categorize the readers personal identity and protect them from any criticism of groups in the past or present that actually go out and organize in some capacity.
It's become a term to protect the feelings of online "leftist" that never leave their apartment. People that just want to be on "the left" because it makes them feel superior morally. Instead of actually working for material changes.
Not sure how to get this. Do you think that left ideology is not based on ethical principles? Of course I feel morally superior when thinking of authoritarians. I could only imagine myself actually saying "I'm a leftist" as a protecion, if it's about protecting myself from gatekeeping tankies. Elsewise the word didn't change it's meaning for me. I never really defined tankies as left. Caging or killing people for having another opinion isn't social justice. Re-education camps and gulags are not solidarity. Reigning totalitarian is not equality and total censorship is not social progress.
"Tankie" does not have a meaningful definition. At least not anymore. It's a vague idea of what the reader defines as "authoritarian".
Caging or killing people for having another opinion isn't social justice. Re-education camps and gulags are not solidarity
This type of thing is an example of what I'm talking about. You're not "a leftist" if you're going to live in a world in which we never "win". To remain in a fascist controlled world but enjoy the moral arguments of superiority without having to actually make decisions in a post revolutionary society. We have Nazis in the US that want all trans people killed. What is your solution after the revolution, after "leftist" take power to do with these Nazis? To let them remain "free". To let them spread their lies and propaganda? If not "caging" if not "reeducation" if not "killing". What is your solution for this? It's fun to critize past societies when you only have judgement and not solutions.
Your criticism is not on the conditions, effectiveness, or any other material outcome of gulags or reeducation. It is on the "idea" of protecting "rights". It makes no material argument. It is defending an idea in your head that is destructive to the rights of others.
"Leftism" is not based on moral principles alone. That is liberalism. That is idealism. Leftist principles are based on dialectics and materialism. It is the difference between "defending human rights" by some idea of liberal principles and achievement of actual material freedoms of health, shelter, labor, etc.
For example, that "freedom of speech" is a fundamental idea that if followed, to absolute material outcome of that idea, then the moral outcomes will be fulfilled for all. This is what liberals believe. The "I may not agree with you but I'll fight to the death your right to say it".
When after a revolution the liberal thought is "very concerned with suppression of free speech". It is then that many people that call themselves "leftist" hold onto this liberal idealism and state that the post revolutionary society is "authoritarian".
I critize post revolutionary societies because I want current revolutionary societies to learn from their failures and improve upon them. Not to have some useless Idealist label "true leftist" or "tankie".
As Parenti said
And those who demand instant perfection the day after the revolution, they get up and say “Are there civil liberties for the fascists? Are they gonna be allowed their newspapers and their radio programs, are they gonna be able to keep all their farms? The passion that some of our liberals feel, the day after the revolution, the passion and concern they feel for the fascists, the civil rights and civil liberties of those fascists who are dumping and destroying and murdering people before. Now the revolution has gotta be perfect, it’s gotta be flawless.
Hilarious, one of the best replies in here, excellent comment, and the reply is removed by mod. I used to hate the tankie discourse but it really does bring out the best of the good posters and the trolls.
Real af they doing everything to delegitimate commies by making tankies a slur. It's so mask off at this point it's actually funny that libs and other leftists fall for it hook line and sinker.
Are you really that paranoid that you think I'm some CIA dude? Or can't you believe that hate just always has been dismissed by leftists? Tankies never were accepted within the left spectrum. Of course tankies claim otherwise because they want to pretend to be supported
Mistaking, yes
"Tankie" has always been a pejorative used by unserious people more concerned with their ideological purity than actually directly confronting imperialism.
Tankies are those people psychos simping for imperialist regimes. And yes, killing and hate and such shit concerns people.
I mean if you aren't you doing their work for free lmao
You really think secret services would care about you few internet weirdos lol
Thanks!
Just as a tip for the future, markdown actually has a built-in way to include alt text. In the CommonMark format that Lemmy uses, you can format an image like this: .
It associates the description directly with the file, which works much better for accessibility than typing it as a separate line below, and keeps the content looking clean for everyone else. I don't know how much of a diffrence it actually makes though, I don't have first hand experence with a screen reader, just what people have told me.
Good to know, thanks!
What even is a "tankie" its a meanigless buzzword use to critize anyone opposing imperialism or pointing out obvouis lies spread by things like falun gong or radio free asia just useless nonsense.
everyone supports the use of force though do you not think force should be used to stop a rapist thats a meaningless definition.
Holy false equivalency, Batman! We can both throw straw man examples back and forth all day long. But you know damned well what kind of force they were referring to, and what kind of “crimes” that force would be used to stop. There’s a vast difference between rape and protesting against the government. And the fact that you’re trying to equate them means you’re approaching the argument from a fundamentally skewed perspective and likely aren’t arguing in good faith.
They were very clearly not making any equivalency let alone a false equivalency. They were using an example that we all would agree on as a demonstration. This is a rhetorical device and a perfectly valid, frequently used one at that. But the fact that you and apparently a couple others are trying to make it out as if they were saying "r*** is the same thing as protesting" is disgusting and revealing of your own motives.
You're meaningless if violence and rape is the first you think of
"Tankies" are people who actually understand how imperialism and hegemony work. They are able to look past their prejudices using material analysis to recognize who perpetrates imperialism vs those who are victimized by it and struggles against it. "Tankies" stand in support of the latter. Whereas People who use "tankies" as a pejorative (sometimes now called dronies) are those who have failed to sift out from the deluge of propaganda (that we are all saturated by) those specific lies that they want to believe in. They remain ignorant, usually willfully, because it is easier and oftentimes beneficial to them to believe that, for instance, the groups of people their government tells them are evil and "authoritarian" really are evil and "authoritarian."
While it is ultimately a failure of understanding how the world actually works that the drony suffers from, it is often rooted in a failure of self reflection, the refusal to recognize their prejudices, biases, and the material reasons behind their wilful ignorance. So of course the dronies hate people who are willing to hold up a mirror and then look out and see the world as it is, because those people are a reminder and representation of all the things the dronies in their cowardice refuse to look at. Hence we get frothing know-nothings who think they're leftists whinging and even raging about those terrible "tankies."
Tankies are people advocating for using force to suppress whatever they deem not acceptable.
So when Barack Obama claimed the right for the US President, to drone strike anyone deemed a terrorist, without trial, did that make him a Tankie?
It's not a meaningless buzzword; we all know what a tankie is, the term has been around and in use for many decades.
So... what does "what", "even", and "is" mean? I'm just asking honest questions.
thats a useless definition you said nothing.
No you
Yeah done responding to you was hoping you'd actually attempt to define it apparently not so we're done.
Like they said, useless nonsense, what does your sentence even mean?
Oh comon 21st century digital boy use the internet if you're not able understand it
'Maybe if I use another buzz word they stop calling out the points I have no defenses for'
That's actually a really solid comparison tbh
Too bad Stalin stopped at Berlin.
I'm not a facist. And we have no previous interaction either.
From my pov, nazis (sausages, poles, finns) fucked around the Soviet Union and had to be pushed back.
Are you saying the nazis should be left running amok in the Europe? The Global South loves the Soviet Union and has other opinions on nazis/colonizers. Can you guess what are they?
You can care all you want about human rights, that doesn't mean you're not falling for propaganda.
The CIA once overthrew the peaceful, democratic government of Iran, and covered up their involvement for decades. Why would they not be able to do similar things today? Did they just woke up one day and suddenly get a change of heart, after facing no consequences for their actions? And that's just one example, they did similar things in so many countries all around the globe. You just don't often hear about it, because, well...
If you don't think the feds are capable of exploiting concern about human rights to influence people's opinions, I don't even know what to tell you.
Yea sure lol whatever you think anyone was asking for and makes sense in your head.
Your original post was about the CIA. They were giving an example of evil, anti-human rights activities by the CIA. Their comment is directly related to your post, whether you agree with it or not.
I haven't seen one shred of evidence through all of their trolling that suggests OP isn't literally a liberal that doesn't know what leftism is and has it confused with social progressivism. Not even in a 'dem socs aren't leftist' way I mean I suspect they do actually support the continuation of capitalism.
*before downvoting me this is a quote from OP
tHe Bourgeoisie lol when do you people live smh
like...
**oh nevermind they self identified as anarchist somewhere. I genuinely thought they were a lib that got lost.
Explain what leftism is and what makes you a leftist made this comment before I saw they call themself anarchist.
I swear to god everyone needs to have their phone taken away all at once, for a month. Especially the left. We need to learn how to stop having stupid fucking arguments.
My 2 posts and the discussions are the best that could happen here.
Oh look another .world account that couldn't differentiate between a soc dem and a Dem's sock. Hows your cosplay fitting?
Funny how accounts like yours make horrible tanky memes, get ratioed to shit by half the comment section but maintain top level up votes in surplus of usual community activity. Real strange.
Op: I think I'll instantly summon all of .ml for a flame war

Do you not believe the US or the other imperialist nations have lied about their enemies at all? If not, do you understand why people should at the very least be suspicious of any claims made by known liars who have an interest in the narrative presented?
Not to say that any of these states have never done any wrong. None of us want the bad things and it's useful to critically analyze past failures to do better in the future. But it's hard to sift through the lies to find the truth so we can do that in any useful way.
Considering that the failures of the past aren't what we want for the future, demonizing these societies isn't particularly useful. It just serves the interest of the currently dominant powers. You can say that it doesn't and that you also don't like the US, but if your position on every country or movement that the US labels as an enemy is conveniently aligned with them... then... it's doing it's job whether you intend it to or not. It's just stoking more red scare sentiment, which gets used against even whatever you think "real leftists" are. It's not like the McCarthy hearings only went after secret soviet spies. It was just a tool to go after political opponents. It's this fear that allowed the US to justify becoming the biggest military in the world, invading tons of countries, spying on everyone, etc.
If we were to actually identify an agreed upon truth of some bad thing done by these states, I wouldn't disagree with you. However, in the context of a world dominated by the US and it's allies, this just doesn't serve a purpose. We need to work on ways to move forward and deal with capitalism. This doesn't do that. It just helps to justify the current world order.
Was this meme actually made by CollegeHumor I wonder.
Idk. I also don't really know about CollegeHumor. Just found the meme in the wild
No collegehumor has more intelligence than op and the memes they've posted
Yea some people really think that left people think tankies belong to them and that leftist suffer such a pathetic cowardly peer pressure to need to see the left as a connected group.
like Antifa Inc. ©®™ hehe
Oh man if there's one thing about being left it's being pro war. Maybe stick to drawing people as soyjacks, big guy
My point being that people pretending to be leftists claim to care about human rights to use it as an excuse for bombing countries (see Iran during the protests as a recent example). Are you requesting drawings because my words were too difficult for you to understand?
Like maybe if you drew me a picture of a leftist excusing bombing other countries I might believe you that it happened.
Probably not but it would be really funny
thanks for using Leebra!
go to feed...
This is how all of the libertarian left looks according to some people here:
save