Do you think that Edward Snowden is a hero?

2 days ago by Anonymous_Leaker to c/privacy

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/48428963

I personally do, he actually risked his life to release information about the government spying on people. And there are for sure more advanced ways now. Even your phone is listening.

instantregret 119 points 2 days ago

Of course. If you risk your life and freedom for the greater good on your own account you sure are a hero.

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vivalapivo 79 points 2 days ago

Yup, a hero. Sacrificed himself for a greater good.

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themurphy 68 points 2 days ago

Scary thing is he didnt really accomplish much with his sacrifies. NSA is much scarier today and things just goes on.

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voxel 53 points 2 days ago

I don't think so, while the impact wasn't as great as he and other people wished, it nonetheless had a big impact, many people started to care, just because of what he exposed.

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gog 44 points 2 days ago

If it weren't for him the majority would've been still thinking gov spying on citizens is a conspiracy theory hhhhh

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nucleative 55 points 2 days ago

I think he had as much impact as anyone in his position could possibly have, if not way above average for a whistleblower.

The problem is that the public quickly turned on him, in no small part due to the PR strategy of those who DO have the power to change this. And most of the public shrugged and said what are we gonna do?

His contribution was proof that suspected domestic spying under the guise of homeland security was being widely misused. Which is a violation of YOUR constitutional rights. Of course anyone paying attention suspected it before, but he brought receipts. Many people think he should be in jail or worse because of this.

Unless he's lying, and I don't think he has been shown to lie, he did attempt to use proper channels. The media has historically been called the 4th branch of government for a reason - and ultimately that's where he turned.

The man effectively lost much of his freedom and the people he did it for were unable to take it any further.

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uriel238 2 points a day ago

We are learning as a species that public relations (messaging, propaganda, whatever) is effective, and when the ownership class can put trillions into controlling the masses, it works.

I'd like to think there's a counter for it, but the worker class seems to be willing to suffer a lot of misery so long as someone else is suffering more than they are.

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Shindo66 35 points 2 days ago

If he isn't a hero to you, I question you as a person.

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inkblade 28 points 2 days ago

A good person and a decent human being? Yes.

Heroes are shit.

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yogthos 27 points 2 days ago

He's unquestionably a hero.

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geneva_convenience 26 points 2 days ago

Yes

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TheKaul 25 points a day ago

He gave people information that they otherwise wouldn't have, regarding the surveillance state at the time. Definitely good for the common person, bad for the government.

I do wish there was more done about it. It seems like not enough happened and now things are even worse with the thousands of internet trackers, Google, Meta, Flock, etc... We needed some kind of privacy protections but we didn't get enough and now we're here, on platforms like Lemmy, avoiding the all-knowing algorithm as much as possible.

How did we go from "Ahh! The government can listen to our phonecalls and read our emails!" to "Sure Big Tech, train your AI on my personal photos, location, usage habits, and manipulate my internet experience for profit! Please do!!!"

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Olgratin_Magmatoe 23 points a day ago

I had a professor in a cyber security class go off about how you're a traitor to the United States if you thing well of him. I remember rolling my eyes and wondering why she was drinking so much cool aid.

He did the right thing, but the concept of heros is not a good or useful one, especially when it comes to political actors.

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RoachFire 5 points a day ago

My thoughts exactly.

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zaphod 4 points 17 hours ago

professor in a cyber security class

Maybe she was funded by the NSA?

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John_CalebBradberton 2 points 20 hours ago

Never neet your heros and all that i guess.

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SocialistVibes01 21 points 2 days ago

He's a hero and Aaron was a martyr.

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thanksforreading 19 points a day ago

I'm still confused. All I took away from it is that it's illegal to point out someone is committing crimes. A full mask off moment that will echo through history.

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lattrommi 17 points a day ago

He's a hero solely for trying to save Atari Teenage Riot.

It's sad that only 10% of the data he leaked ever made it to the public. From what I've read, the unreleased stuff has been lost. I could be wrong and don't have a source handy for that.

I'd let him hide out in my apartment.

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synestia 2 points 17 hours ago

Mam that band has gone off the rails these last few years. Last time I checked they (or just Alec?) were shilling NFTs lol

What's the link between ATR and Snowden though?

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anotherspinelessdem 17 points a day ago

I don't really believe in the concept of 'heroes' as in unquestionably good people who are to be emulated, but there are people of commendable moral principles, actions, and character that are worth noting.

His actions were unquestionably noble and effective in revealing the depth of surveillance of statesian citizens by a government many of them trusted, but mistakes in how that data was passed to journalists are also worth noting so such actions aren't self-sacrificing. He'd be more useful continuing to expose how that continues and has gotten worse, and simultaneously deserves a more comfortable life for his efforts. But he was also young and from my interpretation of my reading seemed to almost accidentally find himself at BAH. If someone more experienced and guided by good handlers were involved, his results could have been multiplied, and his efforts better rewarded.

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Wren 14 points 2 days ago

I think he did the right thing even though it meant sacrificing his freedom. People are more aware of government surveillance around the world, even if it's only increased in other ways. We can try to fight it in the open, now.

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ShutUpWesley 9 points a day ago

I don't necessarily think hero is the right word, but his actions are commendable, even if they largely had little effect.

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Jason2357 8 points a day ago

What a loaded question. Hero is such a poorly defined yet super high bar. Firefighters who die rescuing children don't even typically want to be called a hero. This just sets up people to say no and muddy the water.

Did he stand up for democracy and transparency and rule of law? Yes. Did he suffer for his actions from powerful people more concerns for the political harm caused by the exposure of illegal actions? Yes.

Did he do everything right? No, he's human, and wasnt asking to be lionized or elected anything. He wanted people to look at the materials and demand change from governments. He didn't get what he wanted, and ended up stuck in Russia, where people can dismiss him as just a traitor, so no, he didn't do everything right. He could have also thrown himself on the mercy of the American justice system, no matter how doomed that would be. But he's human, so I don't expect suicide.

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DieserTypMatthias 6 points a day ago

Yes

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peskypry 6 points 14 hours ago

He is. This shouldn't even be a question.

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mufkin 5 points 2 days ago

Hero. No. The right thing. Yes.

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Anonymous_Leaker 6 points 2 days ago

Well, then... "I can be your hero, baby!"

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eleitl 5 points 15 hours ago

Is the Pope catholic?

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Sarothazrom 4 points 14 hours ago

unquestionably yes.

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MasterOfProton 2 points 2 days ago path: 0 24364123, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
MonkderVierte 1 point 2 days ago

They've gone the weasel-route by releasing piece-by-piece to not cause drama and censoring names to not endanger them. In the end, this did more damage than good, getting people used to the scandals and feeling helpless. I wonder if that wasn't on purpose?

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Tenderizer78 0 points 2 days ago

The alternative hero of that situation is the US government so ...

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AnotherUsername 3 points a day ago

That's a very weird binary view. Do you think every situation involves one hero and one villain? I'd say many situations involve no heroes at all.

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Jason2357 1 point a day ago

This is exactly why the original question is so loaded to be disengenuois.

Answering yes sounds foolish, while a complex answer sounds like waffling or even excusing, and will be generally ignored. Only the person who answers clearly with a "no" sounds reasonable.

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dreadbeef -3 points 14 hours ago

No such things as heroes

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Carmakazi -7 points a day ago

I dislike that he pursued asylum in Russia and I think that doing so potentially damages his credibility and motives. But what he did was important nonetheless.

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Chais 16 points a day ago

Let's be honest, virtually every other country would have extradited him.
North Korea or China might've been other options, but hardly better ones. Norway maybe, but they had shown to also cave to American pressure by prosecuting the founders of pirate bay.
No great options, really.

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Carmakazi 3 points a day ago

Yeah. Probably had to worry about illegal snatch and grabs too. It's just ironic that he had to turn to autocrats who use much of the same tactics he warned about.

Of course our views on Russia in 2013 were quite different to what they are now, but we always kind of knew they were a mafia state with varying levels of dedication to "playing along" on the world stage.

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phraxen -8 points 2 days ago

Edit: My bad. It's not Snowden's fault that no one cared :( I deserve the downvotes. Coincidentally, following the comments and other posts I've realized that he is, in fact, quite the definition of a tragic hero.

I don't know... did he achieve anything lasting? Are we better off? Is he? He tried something, it didn't work. I'm not convinced he did it out of the goodness of his heart amd I'm fairly certain he did not envision a life sucking off the Kremlin just to remain safe. Don't get me wrong, this could and should have crippled our trust in all governments... but it didn't.

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icelimit 5 points 2 days ago

Well I think he achieved as much as can be done - brought to light the abuses of the gumint. It was up to the people to decide what to do with that information. Most, including you clearly, just didn't care that everyone's rights were, and are (even moreso today) being completely discarded.

It wasn't on him to bring the abusers to justice or correct the system. That's on the system. If it fails, it's on the people to fix it.

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phraxen 0 points 2 days ago

Ah, I never meant to imply it was his issue to fix. I was just lamenting the fact that NOT much came of it and he now has to hide just to live somewhat of a life.

I do in fact care about our rights so thanks for pointing out that it came over complelety differently than intended. That's on me.

I guess I'm more angry that nothing (much) came of it despite my thinking that his leaks were important and the details behind them rather obvious. I will never assume that any government does NOT spy on us in some way, shape, or form... I guess I'm just angry the guillotines are still dry.

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icelimit 3 points a day ago

Be the change you want to see. Guillotines can be rendered airborne.

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phraxen 1 point a day ago

I'm trying, it's just when I open my mouth things go sideways...

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ultimate_worrier 4 points 2 days ago
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phraxen -2 points 2 days ago
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phraxen -5 points 2 days ago

Nah, I have a somewhat functioning brain, Ka$h wouldn't let me in :(

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ultimate_worrier 4 points 2 days ago
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phraxen -2 points 2 days ago

I deserve the downvotes, and you calling me a fucking fed twice.

Don't give a shit about my username. See my last direct comment on my post. I'm shit with words.

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phraxen -1 points 2 days ago

Huh... I'm terrible at communicating, apparently. Keeping the comment up for obvious reasons, but if anyone wants to chime in on how it was interpreted, please help me out. It was definitely not my intention to come over as a fucking fed.

... why do I even try. I guess downvoting is easier than helping me out.

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whatiswrongwithyou 4 points a day ago

I got u.

You wrote:

I don’t know… did he achieve anything lasting? Are we better off? Is he? He tried something, it didn’t work. I’m not convinced he did it out of the goodness of his heart amd I’m fairly certain he did not envision a life sucking off the Kremlin just to remain safe. Don’t get me wrong, this could and should have crippled our trust in all governments… but it didn’t.

The problem is that you don’t know what you’re talking about and are a homophobic liberal.

I don’t mean that as a set of insults. It’s easy to see yourself through your own eyes and hard to see yourself through the eyes of others.

Snowdens leaks had direct results that have shaped the law, media and our understanding of government. They have been extensively reported on, written about outside of the press, used as a framework for other leaks & revelations and ensured that frameworks for safely revealing damaging information existed in the years to come.

So just in the first sentence you lose everyone millennial or older, they know you’re wrong because they saw it firsthand.

Then you go on to say that he didn’t leak out of the goodness of his heart and was “sucking off the kremlin”. There’s a human development hurdle that has to do with recognizing others act for their own reasons and their actions have consequences. I can’t remember the name of it but you’re writing literal baby brained stuff that assumes your reader will look at real events that actually happened in the world with the same level of seriousness and understanding as a Star Wars movie or bioware game. It’s all capped off with using fellatio as a pejorative in the context of a man.

Idk if it’s just latent or you consciously hate gay people. That’s on you to figure out.

You cap it all off by saying snowdens leaks should have crippled our trust in all governments, but Snowden didn’t leak something about all governments, he leaked extensive proof that the US government was illegally spying.

Again, you’re losing everyone who saw it happen and most of the people who know anything about it.

Taken as a whole a reader can’t help but either think “this person doesn’t know what they’re talking about and is a homophobic liberal” or “this person is a fed”. The second comes from the realization most people have that someone saying what you’re saying credulously might be doing it on purpose to shape discussion or gauge acceptance.

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phraxen 2 points a day ago

Thank you!! I truly hadn't considered it would come across as this... Hence my edits and attempts to explain how terrible I am at communicating, especially when triggered.

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment and again want to thank you for quite a wakeup call! I'm certainly not homophobic nor a liberal, and on top of it all, I'm a millenial. Best explanation I have is that at the time of the leaks I was surprised and frustrated at how surprising it was to so many...

I will still leave all my comments up for posterity because if anything, I want others to learn from my mistakes.

Edit: FWIW, the "sucking off the Kremlin" was intended more in the sense that now he has to play by others' rules instead of living the life he deserves. I do see how homophobic such a stupid phrasing is and will refrain from going so vulgar in future.

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AnotherUsername -13 points a day ago

Yeah, gonna go against the grain and say he's a self-centered douchebag who made everything worse. He didn't "risk his life". He risked life in prison - and defected to a MUCH worse country for very, very, very stupid reasons. Any "I did it for freedom" excuses he spouted, or that you ascribe to him, are public relations bullshit.

If he had any integrity he'd have just gone to jail. Instead he went to fucking Putin, like THAT'S supporting freedom.

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Nastybutler 14 points a day ago

I'll just address one of the many incorrect things you've said, in that this assumption that he "defected to Russia" is utter nonsense. He was trying to get to I believe Ecuador and his passport was revoked while in the Moscow airport. He effectively lived in the airport for about a month IIRC (it's been a long time since I've had to debunk this BS) before Putin granted him asylum.

Bottom line, he's not in Russia by choice. He's effectively trapped there, unable to travel, until the US State Department overturns the ban.

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 3 points a day ago

yeah, people get snowden and assange confused and that's a damn shame

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Jason2357 13 points a day ago

You are expecting someone to commit suicide for their values. Thats what life in prison under unjust prosecution is. He would expect to die there, alone.

Yeah, thats the most moral stance he could have taken, but he also didn't ask us to put our trust in him. He's not a politician. Those people DO ask us to put our trust in their character and ethics and were demonstrably shown to be lacking when illegal spying was clearly present.

All he asked for was for people to look at the evidence he presented and demand rule of law. He could be a puppy killer, and it wouldn't matter. He didn't ask to be elected to anything or put in charge of anything, and he acted like a self-serving human being in the end.

If America lives up to the claim of being just, it didn't seem to look like it in this case. The instant and well funded propaganda campaign against him was not an indication it would be a case of blind justice.

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queermunist 10 points a day ago

and defected to a MUCH worse country

Why do you actually think this? Obviously you believe the war in Ukraine was unprovoked and evil, but like, the US does unprovoked and evil wars far more often. The US has far more people in its prisons, and kills more people through both military and economic warfare. The US supports Israel and UAE in their barbarism, while Russia supports anti-colonial governments in the Sahel region (for cynical reasons, because those movements are kicking out the US and France, but the motivations don't change the results).

Based on the sheer numbers, Russia is at least the lesser evil. The US is still the Great Satan.

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anotherspinelessdem 5 points a day ago

He didn't "risk his life". He risked life in prison

American prisons, famous for their safety

Image

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