I believe veto was the thing that has destroyed the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth
Zombie 7 points a month ago
It's not democracy if the majority can compel the minority to go against their will. Germany and France will become the dominant powers even more so than they already are which will ultimately result in the slow erosion and downfall of the EU being what it claims to stand for. Vetoes and consensus democracy were founding ideas for a reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_democracy
It's convenient to hold up Hungary as the evil example of misused vetoes but the solution to that is to move to suspend countries as a member, for acting in bad faith repeatedly. Using freedom from association. Not to destroy your democracy from within by making it less democratic.
khannie 26 points a month ago
It's not democracy if the majority can compel the minority to go against their will.
That's.... Exactly what democracy is though. Like Brexit is a great example of this. The majority forced the minority against their will.
I take the rest of your point though and agree. We just need to get past the "one or two arseholes" issue. I'd be happy with some kind of supermajority decision making process.
geissi 4 points a month ago
It's not democracy if the majority can compel the minority to go against their will.
That's.... Exactly what democracy is though
Only to some extent. Modern democracy typically includes some forms of minority protection to reduce the risk of a “Tyranny of the majority”.
That said, the EUs qualified majority system already has some such measures, like giving smaller countries more votes in parliament relative to population.
Also every country has an equal vote in the council.
captain_aggravated 0 points a month ago
"Tyranny of the majority" is a MAGA euphemism for "we're not the majority."
Zombie -2 points a month ago
Aye, you're right in that democracy isn't just one singular concept, there are various forms.
But think on what the idea of democracy is supposed to represent. It's supposed to be rule by the people. If 48% of the people are having their authority to rule superceded by the 52% then how can you say it's rule by the people? It's rule only by the majority. Democracy only in colloquial common parlance.
The word democracy has been bastardised even since its very conception so it's difficult to define without arguments. The EU however have already defined their democracy at the highest state level on similar principles that anarchists do, of consensus. All countries are equal, all countries can say no. This will throw that away in favour of less democracy, less equality, less say in how the continent functions, in tyranny of the majority.
It will be the beginning of the end for the European project. And I'm not saying that lightly or as hyperbole.
BussyGyatt -1 points a month ago
you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means
mysteryhumpf 7 points a month ago
Qualified majority makes sure that even without veto France and Germany don’t become dominant.
WoodScientist 2 points a month ago
It's not 1960 anymore. Sure, early on the EU (well its predecessors) were just France and Germany. But today? The combined population of Germany and France is 150 million. The EU population is 450 million. The most populace country, Germany, represents just 19% of the EU's total population.
For a comparison, in the US, California represents about 12% of the total population, so not that different. And historically, when the US was founded, Virginia contained about 19% of the total US population.
The EU has grown immensely, but its governmental structure reflects an earlier era. Veto powers made sense when everything in the EU other then Germany and France was a rounding error. But the EU has grown so much that France and Germany now occupy a similar position to any number of most-populated states and provinces in countries around the world. One province having 19% of the population is not unusual. Hell, the largest German state has 21% of the German population, and they don't run an internal veto system.
The veto system made sense when Germany and France truly controlled the EU and dominated its population. But as the block has grown, these countries now look more like the most populated provinces or states you find in every country. And their relative influence will only decline further as the EU continues to expand. The EU has grown and matured, and it's time for its government to do so as well.
motogo 4 points a month ago
You're absolutely right and I do agree. At the same time what this is about is not about many smaller countries getting dominated by big countries. This is about prohibiting foreign powers to bribe their way into power in EU via puppets in a single EU country. As a citizen in a small country I have no concerns that our neighbours in also smaller countries will not agree on certain political decisions where Germany and France may have a different persuasion. If so I naturally would expect a diplomatic consensus would be found.
ExLisper 7 points a month ago
Veto was put in place so that smaller countries wouldn't have to worry that after joining EU bigger countries will outvote and exploit them. I think requiring unanimity is fine in some cases but EU should have mechanisms to move on without some members if they object. Trade deals? Unanimity required. Sanctions on foreign countries? Majority decides. Military aid? Majority decides.
UnfortunateShort 3 points a month ago
I feel like you could also provide protection for smaller countries through law and the ECJ, or legislative procedures/instruments other than vetos. For example laws to prevent decisions that are overwhelmingly negative for few countries, processes that direct compensation to countries negatively affected by laws, or a veto leading to a compulsory mediation process rather than a full stop.
creamfresh 5 points a month ago
So the plan is to ask nicely not to veto? I’m surely missing something.
plyth 2 points a month ago
Even with Spahn and his membership in the Dialog network gone, this comes from a CDU that has deep links to America. It sounds like strength and freedom but giving up veto power turns the EU into a state that is run by a majority. Dominating the EU with that majority is as easy as making the US vote for Trump. We are not better. We will be governed in the same way.
Kissaki 19 points a month ago
Last week Slovenia stopped the EU from issuing a unified statement criticising the Israeli government’s move to break the West Bank by building settlements in the E1 area, as defined by international law.
Hungary, under Orbán, repeatedly using its leverage over EU decisions to extract concessions, including guarantees over the Druzhba oil pipeline. Under Péter Magyar, Budapest has also blocked Ukraine from making enlargement progress.
Two examples listed where it would have helped oppose genocide.
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Good I really hope this happens. Vetos will destroy the EU. It’s not democracy if one autocrat can stop everything.
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