Matt Dinniman is the next Markus Alexej Persson (Notch) / JK Rowling / etc.
4 days ago by begrudgedcarfolk to c/unpopularopinion
Dungeon Crawler Carl was full of misogyny, racism, and ableism. There is a great full review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/7548962785
Disclaimer, I did not write the review, I just agree with it.
EDIT
This comment has a pastebin link to the review in it's entirety.
Thank you Seb the goblin.
yep.
The only racism I can think of is committed by the bad guys
So the depiction of the first boss isn't problematic, The fat slobbish latina hoarder? It's almost like he was trying to roll misogyny, racism, ableism, and fat-shaming into one.
It's not problematic because he literally gets angry about those depictions. As the books go on he figures out more and more that they're trying to make humans look like these negative stereotypes, and it's a criticism of the aliens who created the dungeon.
Dusted off an old account I haven't used for years for this: https://paste.trom.tf/igiwodejap.rust (was too long for comment, so had to put in a pastebin)
Okay, a lot of that is just bullshit. For instance, the stuff about some of the mobs being caricatures/stereotypes. A whole hunk of the story is that aliens have designed the dungeon to represent earth cultures, but they've done it based on grotesque negative stereotypes in order to make humans look bad to the other alien races. It's clear that this is supposed to be bad and hurtful, and it paints racism as a bad thing. The books aren't very deep, but apparently the author isn't able to get even that.
It's one thing for the aliens to play on negative Earth stereotypes (the commentary I was expecting and looking for), and it's another thing when the POV characters do. It's Carl's first person POV depicting the people and events using that language, not the aliens'. And it's Princess Donut telling him to kill because she's "disgusting." He wants to help/team up with her, but the sarcasm of "Yeah, that'll be a no" is basically the entire argument it takes for him to do a murder instead.
Because if the author originally intended this to be about how horrible the aliens are, then the MC shouldn't be the one thinking these horrible things. Full stop. But the author is the one who chose to do a first person narrative. He failed to describe people in a way that doesn't put the words and feelings in his MC's head.
It’s Carl’s first person POV depicting the people and events using that language, not the aliens’.
He literally describes it as a stereotype. He gets angry about the depictions.
And it’s Princess Donut telling him to kill because she’s “disgusting.”
And she's supposed to be a pampered show cat who is somewhat shallow and judgemental. We're not supposed to think those views are good.
The reason why he's the next is because these people made their bag, and then it became apparent that they were huge pieces of shit. He's still working on the first part.
Apparently it's been greenlit for a tv series on peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/...
The first book (books?) were originally written during the pandemic and self-published; they got a cult online following. Then he got picked up by a big publisher and they've done well. He's written eight books in the series so far.
Judging by a short web search, it looks like he claims to try to subtly deliver left-wing political thought to rightwing readers. If true, the "misogyny, racism, and ableism" might be chosen deliberately to obscure an overarching narrative that's essentially left-wing. But I haven't read the books or the review (definitely not going to sign into a site to read a book review), so I have no idea what the alleged -isms look like.
Also, the author's name is Matt, not Carl.
As someone who's read the books, the main character deliberately identifies any toxic thoughts and corrects for them, acknowledging them being bad and not what he wants to foster within himself. The racist/etc caricatures are created by the system and his entire purpose is to point out how fucked up and wrong they are to the point of rallying others to help take them down.
Calling dungeon crawler carl a racist series is akin to calling the color purple racist. Pointing out the problems of the racism is the point. Same with all the other isms. The show runners are literally race purists who think all other species and groups are lesser, using brainwashing and torture to correct members of their species who go against this perceived purity. These are made very clear to be the bad guys. The series is straight up saying this is not ok.
I am also someone that did not like the book.
A list of my criticisms:
(1) Carl’s POV The story is told from the 1st-person, past tense perspective of Carl, our MC. And yet, we receive minimal emotional or mental reactions from him as he traverses the dungeon beyond “I shuddered” or some variation of nausea. He strangled the hoarder with a dog chain and then with said chain wrapped around his knuckles he punches her for an entire minute to kill her. This entire time, she is crying in Spanish. And Carl takes the time to describe how fat she is, how she wears no bra, and when Princess Donut hits her with a missile, he takes the time to describe her pendulous breasts and marred (aka stretch marked) stomach. He never shows signs of regret, guilt or remorse, even though he acknowledges she is a woman forced to be this monster boss. He’s weirdly mute about the whole thing after it happens. I get that he’s trying to survive and this all might be a trauma response, but the PAST tense would have allowed some distance for the narrating version of Carl to provide at least some insight into that if it were the case.
(2) The AI/aliens made the world, but Carl is our eyes and ears. HE is the one describing everything and everyone. Carl as the narrator has a discomforting fixation on fatness and women’s anatomy. MCs with troubling views or actions are common in literature, but Carl is often described by readers as an average person who is relatable and likable. Characters in the book literally call Carl a good person. I’m confused why people giving this book 4-5 stars aren’t saying they love this book while adding with their full chest that it has a fatphobic MC who objectifies women. Fat characters exist, and describing any character as fat is a perfectly fine physical trait to highlight. But these two qualities (fat characters and women’s breasts) are the only ones repeated numerous times in isolation. We even see a fat suit used at one point, whose breasts Carl describes at least half a dozen times.
(3) Why is the hoarder the only boss we are meant to feel sympathy for? What makes the Juicer, the krakaren with many mouths and no humanoid body, the “pudgy”/“fat” 40-something “soccer mom” fairies, the unvaccinated hillbilly fairies, the Shamanka goblins with a university education but no sense of humor and don’t cook, the llamas and dingos and gerbil different? And why is Carl and Princess Donut reacting to all of these encounters exactly the same? Many say there is social commentary here, but if there is, the author is not following through. In fact, even though more men die in book 1, the on-page detailed deaths are all women. It’s possible Dinniman doesn’t realize he’s farming the emotional deaths of women (especially those of color: the hoarder, the “naked” Asian woman with a bullet “between her breasts”, Yolanda), or he’s doing it intentionally. Best case scenario, the author had no plan or idea of what he was writing, and that resulted in a very emotionally imbalanced narrative.
The common argument is that the series gets better. In what way? Does Carl/Dinniman directly address Carl’s fixation on fatness and breasts, identifying it as wrong with the intention of treating everyone with respect? Or does it all just disappear, suggesting the author learned to hide this side of Carl? Whatever it is, that doesn’t change the glaring issues within this first book.
Hmm, I think some of these criticisms are more on target than the ones in the OP, but I think some miss. I'm not going to go back and look at every fight, but my recollection is:
The first few he's in kind of a "WTF?" space - he's been put into this dungeon and doesn't get what the hell is going on, but he has to kill stuff to survive. As he figures out more of what's happening, he has more empathy with the mobs/bosses.
The ones he feels badly/guilty/pity for are the ones who appear to be real people or aliens who have been made to play the part of mobs, bosses, or NPCs. Some of the others are described as total constructs, or as beasts from some alien planet, and he feels less badly about those.
I'm not understanding why in one paragraph you say that Carl never shows any regret or anything about the hoarder, and in another you ask why she's the only one we're meant to feel sympathy for? My take is that he does express regret and sympathy for her, and he does so for a number of the other subsequent mobs after he figures out that they're actual people/beings.
These aren't great art, and I don't think I've seen even the big fans say that they are. They're fairly simplistic and somewhat heavy handed, but I think some folks here are conflating the racism and sexism that's criticized in the book with support of it.
Anyone who watches that show Family Guy is a monster
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@lemmy.world
Welcome to the Unpopular Opinion community!
How voting works:
If you agree that the opinion is unpopular give it an arrow up. If it's something that's widely accepted, give it an arrow down.
Guidelines:
Rules:
Politics is everywhere. Let's make this about [general] and [lemmy] - specific topics, and keep politics out of it.
Disagreements happen, but that doesn’t provide the right to personally attack others. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Please also refrain from gatekeeping others' opinions.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
Only until they prove to be a problem. They can and will be removed at moderator discretion.
This shouldn't need an explanation. If your post or comment is made just to get a rise with no real value, it will be removed. You do this too often, you will get a vacation to touch grass, away from this community for 1 or more days. Repeat offenses will result in a perma-ban.
This is a bit of a mix of rules 4 and 5 to help foster higher quality posts. You are expected to defend your unpopular opinion in the post body. We don't expect a whole manifesto (please, no manifestos), but you should at least provide some details as to why you hold the position you do.
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I'm not creating an account to read a blog poster's review. I've read the first four of the books (you can see my mini-reviews in the SF community). Many of the strong characters are women (or a female cat). The only racism I can think of is committed by the bad guys and it seems pretty clear that it's being presented as bad, not good. Not sure what you're on about.
All that said, it's not the deepest SF I've ever read. I described it as "dumb fun."
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