Opinions on immutable distros

3 years ago by Footnote2669 to c/linux

Hey! I’m currently on Fedora Workstation and I’m getting bored. Nothing in particular. I’ve heard about immutable distros and I’m thinking about Fedora Kinoite. The idea is interesting but idk if it’s worth it. CPU and GPU are AMD. Mostly used for gaming.

ikidd 45 points 3 years ago

If you're bored, try Nix. It has all the characteristics of an immutable distro, aims for reproducibility, and is complicated enough to keep you amused for months.

path: 0 4755320, hotness: undefined, score: 45, children: 6
jaykay 9 points 3 years ago

Yeah I was thinking about it. Just feels like it might be too much for just day to day use. Without programming and having to reproduce the system on different machines. At least that’s what the comments say in few places lol

path: 0 4755320 4755675, hotness: undefined, score: 9, children: 5
ikidd 15 points 3 years ago

Yah, I get that. But lots of people use Nix as a daily desktop driver because it's immutable. It's not hard to set up the first time with some example configs, and if you want to get more complicated, it's certainly an interesting direction and great time sink.

Frankly, I'd try it in a VM first, so you can snapshot it and play, and see what you think. I don't use it myself but I've set it up a few times and it's pretty cool to play with, I might get around to putting it on one of my bare metal desktops one day.

path: 0 4755320 4755675 4755775, hotness: undefined, score: 15, children: 4
jaykay 10 points 3 years ago

Ugh stop tempting meeee lmao tbf if I set it up in a vm it’d be painless to move to bare metal since I’d have a config already

path: 0 4755320 4755675 4755775 4755875, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 2
ikidd 11 points 3 years ago

Give in to the dark side, Luke.

path: 0 4755320 4755675 4755775 4755875 4756086, hotness: undefined, score: 11, children: 1
cybersandwich 1 point 3 years ago
path: 0 4755320 4755675 4755775 4766370, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Guenther_Amanita 34 points 3 years ago

I see many people here wondering, why they should consider an immutable system.
As someone, who thought the same a few months ago, and now chose Silverblue, here are reasons why:

  • Atomic updates: never worry about half applied installations anymore. Either your OS updates successfully, or it will just work like before.
  • Less bugs and better security: every install is the same, so devs can fix one bug or exploit, recreatable on every system.
  • Automatic updates (configurable): they get downloaded by the way, without you noticing. And if you reboot anyway, you boot into your updated OS. No waiting times. The system manages itself.
  • Way harder to break
  • Changes are easily undoable: if an update breaks anything, you can just select another image and reboot, without recovering anything.
  • No junk accumulation over time, the OS is kept clean
  • Clear distinction between "your" stuff and the OS
  • You can "swap out" the base OS cleanly and keep your stuff. Want KDE? No need to reinstall, just paste one command and delete everything Gnome-related, and you are now on Kinoite.
  • Flexibility: choose between dozens of different images, like one that replicates SteamOS or Ubuntu, has the MS Surface kernel build in, offers Hyprland, and so on...
  • And much more!

My #1 reason is, that everything is worry free.

Those advantages above don't apply to "normal" OSs, even, if I keep everything in Distrobox and Flatpaks.

Immutable OSs aren't called "The future of Linux" without reason. They usually shouldn't impair anyone, and make the whole Linux ecosystem better in any aspect.

path: 0 4760427, hotness: undefined, score: 34, children: 9
lemmyvore 16 points 3 years ago

I'm sorry but none of the above sound different from a regular distro. Maybe I haven't got the gist. You can have snapshots and atomic updates on a regular distro, you don't have to reinstall to switch from Gnome to KDE, I can install all kinds of stuff cleanly anyway thanks to package managers, I don't use root often so the system files are effectively read-only as far as I'm concerned, and so on.

As far as security is concerned I don't see the big deal, I mean I get why a read-only OS would in theory be harder to break into but it can still be modified for updates so I guess it's not really "immutable" after all.

What am I missing?

Edit: before anybody points it out, I do know about the rebase layers and I think it's an interesting approach, but ultimately still gets the same results as packages. It may be helpful for distro builders but doesn't make much difference as a user.

path: 0 4760427 4762600, hotness: undefined, score: 16, children: 8
Guenther_Amanita 8 points 3 years ago

You're correct. But, and here's the big but, the whole immutability-thing isn't something the user should be worried about at all.

On Android for example, the system is read-only too, and pretty much nobody cares too, because it was always designed this way and it doesn't inhibit functionality.

It is mainly a big pro for developers in how I see it. See, every installation creates some package drift. One dependency here, one extra program there, no problem.

But in sum, there will accumulate hundreds of "bloat"-packages over the years, which add many unknown vulnerabilities and bugs that are completely individual to your setup.
And then it will begin: a program crashes here, there's your black screen, and every dev on the issue report says " closed, can't replicate". And after an OS-reinstall, it works again.

And if you want to install KDE on Pop!OS for example, it is highly individual and there are still some packages you didn't see, and it will be very buggy. Some buttons that are misalligned, misconfigured drivers, and so on.
I tried changing the DE on my normal Fedora one time and even though I thought I did everything correct, I had to reinstall due to screen tearing/ flickering, many misconfigurations, and so on.

On Silverblue, it's a process of 5 minutes max, and then my setup will be the same as the one from thousand other people.

path: 0 4760427 4762600 4768561, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 1
lemmyvore 1 point 3 years ago

Ah but on Android they have very rigid rules about partition size, and lots of specialized partitions.

Speaking of which, do you happen to know how immutability is achieved on these Linux distros? Do they mark the system partition read-only, or do they use cgroups, or is it an intrinsic property of the layers?

Package confusions like you describe are always the mark of a poorly designed package system. deb and rpm are positively ancient. deb distros are notorious for multi-repo hell because each repo only has its own limited dependency scope.

You should not have issues like you described on any sane distro. A package is either in a meta package or not. Dependencies should be clear and if something was not explicitly installed it should be cleared out when the thing that depended on it was uninstalled.

path: 0 4760427 4762600 4768561 4772416, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Sentau 0 points 3 years ago

Yes you can do all this with regular distros but not as conveniently. Especially cleanly switching from gnome to kde and vice versa is a nightmare. And by switching I mean removing one completely(including dependencies) and installing the other.

path: 0 4760427 4762600 4762996, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 5
lemmyvore 3 points 3 years ago

Why a nightmare? It should be very easy on any distro with well organized packages. Remove gnome meta-package, install kde meta-package.

path: 0 4760427 4762600 4762996 4763317, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 4
this_is_router 4 points 3 years ago

its an easy: sudo apt install task-kde-desktop; sudo apt purge task-gnome-desktop; sudo apt autopurge

In testing or unstable this can be a problem though.

I feel like, many people just don't understand exactly how a distro and package managers work. immutable os feels like it allows priotizing only on on a small core part of the distribution which is immutable and slapping everything else on via flatpak or snap.

i don't like it and i sometimes wonder if we are not going backwards with that approach.

path: 0 4760427 4762600 4762996 4763317 4764340, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 2
Sentau 1 point 3 years ago

I always depencies left around from the DE that was removed. Maybe it is because my commands are not the right one but I follow what is recommended by the distro wikis. Like if I am using gnome and then download kde just to try it out(without removing gnome), don't feel like using kde and remove it, I have packages and dependencies leftover from kde when I uninstall it. Neofetch too show an increase in packages even though the only action done was installing kde and uninstalling it

path: 0 4760427 4762600 4762996 4763317 4881579, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
gecked 17 points 3 years ago

Hi! I've been using Fedora Kinoite (and now Bazzite Desktop) for about a year.

I'd say bazzite desktop would be a good fit for you if you want to give an immutable desktop a try. It automatically sets up an arch distrobox for steam and lutris, it even has one click installers for things like oversteer in the post-install welcome screen, it auto-updates and is generally just quite a nice improvement on based Fedora Kinoite.

Immutable distros ARE used differently, you will mostly use flatpaks for basic apps (Although a lot of people do that anyway), but any traditional packages you want to install will be done in distrobox. You CAN overlay packages to the base system, but it should be seen as a last resort.

Let me know if you have any questions :)

path: 0 4754642, hotness: undefined, score: 17, children: 6
jaykay 4 points 3 years ago

Interesting. Standard question, why Kinoite and why Bazzite over others? Aren’t you worried bazzite is more bloated than pure Kinoite? Or is that just my mutable distro fear lol Any resources about distrobox/layering etc you recommend?

path: 0 4754642 4754957, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 5
gecked 7 points 3 years ago

I use Kinoite over silverblue and other Fedora versions simply because of the desktop. I choose Fedora atomic over other immutable distros because I simply think it's the easiest/most convenient. VanillaOS might be pretty good, but from what I can tell it's on an Ubuntu/Debian update schedule which isn't what I want. I tried NixOS but it's complexity just wasn't appealing.

I use Bazzite over Kinoite because it has all of the tweaks I want, honestly the amount of "bloat" isn't as crazy as you'd imagine.

I don't have any resources about distrobox unfortunately, but I'm sure they're around.

path: 0 4754642 4754957 4756614, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 4
jaykay 1 point 3 years ago

Awesome, thanks for the reply. VanillaOS is out then, I really despise anything ubuntu. I’ll try nix on my spare laptop and try Kinoite if that fails. Thanks :)

path: 0 4754642 4754957 4756614 4756756, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
gecked 1 point 3 years ago

Just know, it taken me three attempts at Nix, my first 2 lasting a day to a week and my last lasting a month. It's NOT something you're going to jump into without a LOT of learning and googling. Try it as an experiment on something you do not depend upon.

path: 0 4754642 4754957 4756614 4756756 4764268, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
TeryVeneno 0 points 3 years ago

Funnily enough, it seems the VanillaOS team does to since for their 2.0 release they dropped their Ubuntu base. Even if you’re not a Debian guy, I’d recommend checking them out since they’re doing really cool stuff no one else is.

path: 0 4754642 4754957 4756614 4756756 4762608, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 1
Guenther_Amanita 17 points 3 years ago

I can't recommend Silverblue enough.

Thing is: on the "surface" it's not that much different than the "normal" Fedora and it's spins.

So, if you want something hugely different on the base, I'd recommend NixOS instead. Nix feels like "the new Arch" for me and is the tinkerer's dream. It appears to be very complicated too, so it should keep you "not bored" as you said.
I personally wouldn't use NixOS though, as I am just a "casual" user and don't want to over-complicate everything.

I personally am very happy with Silverblue, especially due to one reason: the ability to rebase to many many images.
As other commenters have stated, there's a project called uBlue.
It allows you to swap out the base OS (everything except "your stuff") with one command, so you can rebase to many different community spins and different desktops cleanly.

The uBlue base OS is just Vanilla SB with some QOL stuff added, like codecs and other stuff. It is really a "just works" distro, that manages itself and functions in the background without you noticing.

The other spins give you different DEs, preconfigured drivers, opinionated approaches to different DEs, a SteamOS clone, and so on...

Absolutely great, 10/10

path: 0 4758131, hotness: undefined, score: 17, children: 4
jaykay 1 point 3 years ago

I might try Nix first and see how it goes, if that fails I'll try Kinoite (I prefer KDE :)) thanks for the input :)

path: 0 4758131 4760016, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
Guenther_Amanita 0 points 3 years ago

If you want to try Nix, go for it!
Feel free to update us all :).

When I said Silverblue, I actually meant "atomic Fedora variants", which include uBlue and Kinoite. You can always switch between those with one command and 2 minutes of download time :)

path: 0 4758131 4760016 4761155, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 2
jaykay 1 point 3 years ago

Well, actually this is not the first time me thinking about NixOS. But I tried reading their docs again and... I CANNOT be asked to deal with this. I'd probably be more likely to do LFS than learn NixOS lol I feel stupid now, saying I'll try NixOS. As much as I want to, the docs are horrendous

path: 0 4758131 4760016 4761155 4762363, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
chayleaf 3 points 3 years ago

tbf the docs are in the format of manuals, i.e. only useful if you already know what you're looking for or have lots of time. If you don't, read blog posts and nixos.wiki.

path: 0 4758131 4760016 4761155 4762363 4774433, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
TenTypekMatus 10 points 3 years ago
path: 0 4772184, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 0
mintycactus 10 points 3 years ago
path: 0 4754256, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 4
zingo 0 points 3 years ago

This is what I have been doing for years on my Synology box.

Just a handful of Synology apps (mostly backup and snapshot apps) and all the rest of the ecosystem running in Docker. So the main system is bloatfree.

On Linux desktop, mostly flatpaks installations.

path: 0 4754256 4757372, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
Guenther_Amanita -1 points 3 years ago

That's absolutely not true.
Immutable systems aren't just "normal systems you can't change", no, they're more.

They're image based. So, every OS is the same, giving you better reproducibility, resulting in less bugs, better security and a "fresh" OS after every update.
Your OS accumulates stuff over every update and by just using it over time, and having an image based OS is just better.

Immutability has so much more advantages than just keeping the host clean. It has some disadvantages, yes, but for most people out there, way more advantages!

path: 0 4754256 4759875, hotness: undefined, score: -1, children: 2
mintycactus 2 points 3 years ago
path: 0 4754256 4759875 4761073, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 1
Guenther_Amanita 1 point 3 years ago

Yep, same. While I'm not a total noob, I also don't have that much experience. Just that much to confidentially break my system every time and not knowing why or how to fix it.

SB just makes rolling back way easier, or even prevents breaking my system at all.

And as a notorious DE-hopper, it is also very convenient.

I barely notice any drawbacks for me tbh

path: 0 4754256 4759875 4761073 4761210, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Sentau 10 points 3 years ago

What do you mean by bored¿? Because you will be similarly bored by silverblue or kinoite. They are built to be stable and somewhat boring

path: 0 4758837, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 2
jaykay 0 points 3 years ago

Idk, I might be just trying to find something to tinker with, immutable is kind of "new flashy" thing :P

path: 0 4758837 4760040, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 1
Sentau 3 points 3 years ago

Tinkering on silverblue is similar to tinkering on fedora (at least in my experience) just more restrictive in that the read only parts can't be changed(obviously) and tinkering with packages requires reboots and layering. The good thing is you can rollback to easily undo shit.

path: 0 4758837 4760040 4762802, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
hottari 9 points 3 years ago

Why do all these immutable distros not support use of secure boot and/or TPM. If there was one that made it a breeze to configure this and made using my AURs easy as well I probably could give immutable a chance. But ATM it all looks like I'll have to wait until a major corp like Ubuntu made & supported an immutable version so we can get these quirks hashed out.

path: 0 4777408, hotness: undefined, score: 9, children: 10
russjr08 5 points 3 years ago

I believe Universal Blue supports Secure Boot, since they specifically went to make it work for even Nvidia users - I'm assuming it works similarly for the non Nvidia variants or maybe just uses Fedora's default keys? I'm not too well versed in how SB works.

Then it also comes with Distrobox so you can just spin up an Arch container and use AUR apps through there.

path: 0 4777408 4800523, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 3
hottari 1 point 3 years ago

RedHat & Debian family desktop distros use a key that is signed by Microsoft for supporting secure boot. For compatibility reasons mostly as some hardware will brick when the MS signed keys are not found. But I prefer to sign my own keys and enroll them as I currently do with sbctl. I have no need for extra kernel modules/drivers as Nvidia users would (seems like a hacky workaround if the kernel can't ship the drivers and signing your own kernel makes the situation even more complicated).

However I have been meaning to try Distrobox, if I get around to trying out immutable I will give it a good run.

path: 0 4777408 4800523 4800867, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 2
russjr08 1 point 3 years ago

Ah gotcha, I appreciate the info! I hope that someday a better solution for managing secure boot will work with immutable distros in the future then, so that you have a chance to give it a try (if you want to, of course).

path: 0 4777408 4800523 4800867 4802038, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
hottari 1 point 3 years ago

Am already sold on immutable distros as the future of desktop Linux. 8/10 applications that I use today are flatpaks or dockers. That remaining 20% of the work to be done on immutable is what am anxious about.

path: 0 4777408 4800523 4800867 4802038 4802416, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
2xsaiko 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 4777408 4898370, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
hottari 1 point 3 years ago

Yeah. Came across it when it was released. It's still considered experimental.

And am sure NixOS is great but it definitely is a weird operating system.

path: 0 4777408 4898370 4905998, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
ndonkersloot 1 point 3 years ago

I'm not sure what you mean exactly but I use Silverblue with secureboot on and a LUKS encrypted drive using a fido2 key. To my knowledge I also could configure the use of TPM to store my key but find that setup not to my liking.

path: 0 4777408 4801431, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
hottari 1 point 3 years ago

This summary should cover my main concerns with current secure boot implementations on the major distros. Ignore everything else other the linked part. I also would not want to be forced to use grub as the bootloader.

Curious. What did you not like about using TPM to store keys in your setup? I use TPM for secure state validation & automatic decryption of my LUKS drive, it's great and also acts as a tripwire for secureboot state.

I could build a custom version of Silverblue (u-Blue) to replicate what I already have setup, but none of this would be supported configuration. All this is not entirely to blame on on immutable distros (traditional distros don't give a damn about secure boot either way), just that to mess around within /etc is a no-no in such a model so to get multiple pre-configured options for secureboot configs/keys that work seamlessly would be a great experience for me.

path: 0 4777408 4801431 4802395, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 2
ndonkersloot 1 point 3 years ago

My (maybe flawed?) thoughts: Why bother with full disk encryption if one could just boot the notebook to undo the encryption?

Using my yubico fido 2 key in combination with a small PIN I can easily decrypt my LUKS drive and know nobody else can decrypt it as long as I have my yubico with me.

What do you think of this?

path: 0 4777408 4801431 4802395 4866752, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
hottari 1 point 3 years ago

My (maybe flawed?) thoughts: Why bother with full disk encryption if one could just boot the notebook to undo the encryption?

If it were that easy to do, we wouldn't have even bothered with doing disk encryption in the first place. And it's not like cracking TPMs is a walk in the park.

Using my yubico fido 2 key in combination with a small PIN I can easily decrypt my LUKS drive and know nobody else can decrypt it as long as I have my yubico with me.

This definitely could help in a scenario where an attacker has only your notebook but for it to make a difference your attacker must not be able to access your Yubikey and/or compel you to hand it over.

As long as your LUKS drive is encrypted (TPM or not, Yubikey or not), you are relatively safe from an unauthorized party trying to access your data. Either of these attestation tools add a layer of defense for your encrypted drive.

path: 0 4777408 4801431 4802395 4866752 4881397, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
beta_tester 8 points 3 years ago
path: 0 4775832, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 0
OrkneyKomodo 8 points 3 years ago

I think they have a place, but personally speaking, I feel they stifle tinkering. So they're a "no" for me.

path: 0 4761039, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 1
albert 8 points 3 years ago

I feel the exact opposite -- I feel like they encourage tinkering in their own way, since they offer the ability to much more easily roll back to a known good configuration.

path: 0 4761039 4766726, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 0
Bitrot 6 points 3 years ago

If I didn’t enjoy tinkering, I would use one of the immutable distros, or at least the Fedora versions.

I personally don’t like that they feel like Android or Chrome OS, but I know that is also the draw to them for others.

path: 0 4753626, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 1
Guenther_Amanita 4 points 3 years ago

You can still tinker!

NixOS is pretty complicated, but in my eyes the next-gen Arch.

And Silverblue is still be able to be tinkered with.

See, on immutable systems, you don't change the system itself, but the next image.
Similar to PDFs: you shouldn't change the PDF, but the original document and then export the PDF again. PDFs aren't bad, but they aren't designed to be edited, and that's their pro.

And with Project uBlue you can create custom images how you want.
You like Hyprland? There's an image exactly with that! You see what I mean :)

path: 0 4753626 4768639, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0
Dr_Willis 5 points 3 years ago

Been playing with that Bazannite (sp?) Variant, it works fine, but i am still undecided if learning the ins and puts of it are worth the switch from my Pop_os install.

There was a little bit research and learning to do some tasks, but nothing surprising.

it does seem it boots much slower than my pop_os install, but I think I have it installed on an internal Hybrid HDD that i not yet replaced with a SSD, so that may be the cause.

pop_os boots amazingly fast, not sure what they do to it.

and having to reboot to get stuff updated/installed is a bit annoying, the ability to roll back is the trade off I guess.

However I can't really think of a time that I needed to roll back, perhaps I am just lucky. So the entire roll back feature is something that I don't know if I will ever actually use.

good luck.

path: 0 4754290, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 1
jaykay 0 points 3 years ago

Thanks for the input :)

path: 0 4754290 4754399, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
Pantherina 4 points 3 years ago

If you are bored, no reason to change hahaha. If you want an always running system, use Kinoite.

path: 0 4764712, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0
hperrin 4 points 3 years ago

I tried VanillaOS a while ago and was able to get everything working with my usual setup. I think it has the best approach, and when their v2 comes out, I’m probably gonna switch from Fedora.

path: 0 4753466, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 6
jaykay 3 points 3 years ago

What made you choose VanillaOS over Fedora spins?

path: 0 4753466 4753587, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 4
hperrin 6 points 3 years ago

The fact that I can install anything from any distro in their container setup. It makes things really easy to use with wonky stuff that, say, only works with Ubuntu.

I know you can do the same with other tools, but that’s just how their OS works in the first place.

path: 0 4753466 4753587 4753628, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 3
jaykay 1 point 3 years ago

Interesting. Any experience with gaming?

path: 0 4753466 4753587 4753628 4754096, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 2
hperrin 4 points 3 years ago

I didn’t try, but I did see that you can install Steam, so I’d assume everything would work fine. I saw you said you have AMD graphics, so drivers wouldn’t be a problem.

path: 0 4753466 4753587 4753628 4754096 4754217, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1
d0ntpan1c 1 point 3 years ago

I haven't tried v1 yet, but i am really looking forward to their v2 release. Really glad to see they are swapping from ubuntu-based to debian-based. Tons of really neat features in their roadmap too.

I've been on an arch kick recently, but i like the idea of immutable for my laptop which i don't use as often as my desktop, but when i do use it i need it to just work and not have to be as proactive about the rolling release schedule. Honestly it becomes a good secondary device OS since it'll likely support whatever package manager you use on your main to make installing all the same things the same way easy.

path: 0 4753466 4770727, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
netchami 3 points 3 years ago
path: 0 4755899, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 4
Aatube 2 points 3 years ago

…and people never name guix.

path: 0 4755899 4757029, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 3
netchami 1 point 3 years ago
path: 0 4755899 4757029 4757292, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 2
Aatube 1 point 3 years ago

I haven’t used immutables yet, but from what I’ve heard, guix is architecturally extremely similar to nix

path: 0 4755899 4757029 4757292 4757518, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
netchami 0 points 3 years ago
path: 0 4755899 4757029 4757292 4757518 4757541, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
penquin 3 points 3 years ago

Immutables are an amazing idea. I just wish Arch (EndeavourOS) had it.

path: 0 4766234, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 12
SilentStorms 6 points 3 years ago

Isn't SteamOS immutable and Arch based? Surely there's also a more general purpose distribution that does that.

path: 0 4766234 4770313, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 1
penquin 1 point 3 years ago

Yup, true

path: 0 4766234 4770313 4772081, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
PainInTheAES 4 points 3 years ago

There is AstOS although I haven't tried it personally and I'm not sure how well it works.

path: 0 4766234 4767509, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 5
penquin 1 point 3 years ago

Oh nice. I'm going to look into it more. I have invested so much damn time into my current setup and I don't want to just migrate. So many apps and games are set up the way I want them. Not a distro-hopper here and you get the picture.

path: 0 4766234 4767509 4772078, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Autoreiv 1 point 3 years ago

Is AstOS still active? I found this AshOS which is similar but I had never tried any of it. Maybe also inactive don't really know. Thx for mentioning AstOS, I never thought this is possible on Arch distribution.

path: 0 4766234 4767509 4800237, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
PainInTheAES 1 point 3 years ago

No idea! AshOS looks pretty cool too. It would be interesting to have a bigger arch based distro pick up something like this. Other than SteamOS I guess.

path: 0 4766234 4767509 4800237 4808622, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
stepanzak 1 point 3 years ago

Please temove the exclamation mark from before your link, you're linking it as an image.

path: 0 4766234 4767509 4780869, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
PainInTheAES 2 points 3 years ago

Ah, I was wondering why it wasn't showing up... I guess Boost isn't linking things properly. Thanks for the heads up.

path: 0 4766234 4767509 4780869 4784650, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
EuroNutellaMan 4 points 3 years ago

BlendOS is exactly that

path: 0 4766234 4771006, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 3
penquin 2 points 3 years ago

No way. It's arch based?

path: 0 4766234 4771006 4771996, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 2
EuroNutellaMan 2 points 3 years ago

Yes

path: 0 4766234 4771006 4771996 4773818, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 1
penquin 1 point 3 years ago

Nice. Now, I have a couple of options to look at. Thank you.

path: 0 4766234 4771006 4771996 4773818 4778337, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
minnix 2 points 3 years ago

I've been using Kinoite for a couple of years now on my Thinkpad. What would you like to know?

path: 0 4756460, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 4
jaykay 1 point 3 years ago

How much did you have to adapt to the new app installing workflow? If you know what I mean

path: 0 4756460 4756628, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
minnix 4 points 3 years ago

I learned quickly that installing apps the traditional way causes pretty major instability. You're basically rebasing the entire OS via ostree to install one application. After my second nuke and pave due to updates no longer working from me rebasing I took the time to learn toolbox so if a flatpak is not available I can still use an application (containerized) without altering the OS. Toolbox by default pulls in another Fedora install as the app base. I recommend using Alpine instead, much smaller and lighter.

I guess the moral of the story is learn to install applications the correct way, or just don't use an immutable OS

path: 0 4756460 4756628 4757727, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1
jaykay 1 point 3 years ago

Noted haha I'll think about if I want to use Kinoite, Nix is first place rn I think haha

path: 0 4756460 4756628 4757727 4759948, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Chewy7324 3 points 3 years ago

If nearly all of your gui apps are available as a flatpak, it's simple to adapt. While I was using Silverblue I set my terminal up to launch directly into a distrobox, which gave me a regular container to install apps with a regular package manager (e.g. pacman in my case).

If I used Silverblue today I'd use the Nix package manager (with home manager) to install all my cli apps.

path: 0 4756460 4756628 4757669, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
med 2 points 3 years ago

I’m not a a current user of immutable distros, but I’m in the same boat as you. Interested in immutable os’s, running fedora workstation, getting bored.

I’ve been working on independent setups to see how I’d get customization working on an immutable distro. Some combination of containers seems like how I’d go. See this explanation.

For example, I’m running a wayland system, and RemoteApp/Rails on freerdp only works with X. Xwayland is currently broken on my system (installed as fedora 39 *beta). I require this for work. I installed distrobox with debian 12 bookworm, installed the required packages and it works like a charm.

On immutable OS’sI have been watching Vanilla OS for a while. I really like what I see. I’m just not sure what the security posture of it is.

The biggest thing holding me back is Gnome 45. It’s so good. Having an independent prioritized thread for mouse/keys makes it feel so smooth.

I’ve built hyprland and begun adding all the essential pieces to make it a viable replacement for Gnome. I’m not there yet, but once I figure out ad-hoc multi-monitor support with docks, I will be.

*edit

path: 0 4753610, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 5
jaykay 2 points 3 years ago

2 points for vanillaOS. What’s the problem with their security? Also, coming from KDE, what’s that about gnome mouse thing you’re talking about? Just curious lol

path: 0 4753610 4753853, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 4
med 2 points 3 years ago

I don’t have a particular problem with their security, I just don’t have a clear picture of what they’re about yet - and I don’t want to give the impression that I’ve investigated it and found everything’s in order.

Gnome’s mouse thing is about running the human input devices in a separate thread, prioritized over the rest of its spawned processes. The practical upshot is, if your system is chugging under the weight of too many programs, your input won’t be laggy

path: 0 4753610 4753853 4754485, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 3
jaykay 2 points 3 years ago

Fair enough, thanks for honesty. The mouse thing sounds sick, although I have a pretty powerful setup 😜

path: 0 4753610 4753853 4754485 4754520, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 2
zingo 3 points 3 years ago

Yeah, the input thread priority sounds cool and it would be nice on KDE as well, but if you have a faster computer than a potato, I'll guess you won't be needing that kind of "optimization".

path: 0 4753610 4753853 4754485 4754520 4757509, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 1
sunbeam60 1 point 3 years ago

I think immutable OSes serve two purposes: For the developer who needs to operate multiple environments at the same time, and for the utter novice who could screw something up otherwise.

This audience, us, is the exactly middle ground. We like tinkering. We like setting things up.

So, I don’t think immutable OSes are for us.

path: 0 4758306, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 4
Guenther_Amanita 7 points 3 years ago

Not true in my opinion.
You can still tweak the image to your liking, you just have to approach it differently.

One of the many things image based OSs offer is peace of mind.
It's just great to know my PC will work just as fine tomorrow as it did today, and I don't have to fix anything.

path: 0 4758306 4760989, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 2
sunbeam60 0 points 3 years ago

I can definitely see what you’re saying. But if you start to add packages, what do you gain in terms of known stability? Seems to me you might as well then just “be good” about not adding too many packages to a malleable distribution.

path: 0 4758306 4760989 4769802, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 1
Guenther_Amanita 2 points 3 years ago

If you use the workflow of an immutable system on a traditional one, you have almost all the disadvantages of the first and pretty much no advantages of the second.

The "immutability" (you can still change stuff) is the wrong thing to look at.
I prefer the term "image based", that fits better. Everytime you update your image system for example, it gets "pulled" or compared to the original image.

On a traditional one, you have your original image you once downloaded, and that's it.
Over time, it will still change due to updates and stuff. An immutable is basically a "fresh install" every time.

Most immutables use layering, so you still pull the original image, but after that some stuff gets changed.
It is generally strongly discuraged to install stuff (like GIMP and so on) directly. It should only be the last option, like for drivers.

But even when you directly install, you don't use all the benefits. The OS is still rebuilt every time and package drift barely happens.

And, back to the beginning, the pros and cons.
It's like with PDFs. Yeah, it sucks that you can't edit them. But that's what they're built for. They can't be tampered with, but therefore they look the same on every device and you don't have to worry about fonts, formatting or symbols.

And on immutables it's the same: some stuff is a bit more different/ complicated for some, but at the same time, they're less buggy, more secure, offer instant rollbacks, can be customized and rolled out super quickly, and much more. Read my other comment for more information, including customization by building custom images :)

path: 0 4758306 4760989 4769802 4770227, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
Sentau 0 points 3 years ago

Yeah man I don't know. I used to think I like tinkering(used endeavour for a few months) but I am enjoying the no maintaince life with uBlue very much. Most of the time the system updates on its own and I am not even aware that the system updated. Same with flatpaks which also auto update so they are always on the latest version provided by flathub when I use them. But I also like gnome so maybe I am not the tinker lover I thought I was

path: 0 4758306 4762745, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
danielfgom 1 point 3 years ago

There are many good comments here and from what I've read immutable seems best suited to the Enterprise IT environment where you don't want the user fiddling with the system, and you want built in rollback and quick configuration. As well as user data protection.

But for Linux users at home I don't see any massive advantage. Especially if you're running a reliable distro like Mint or Debian, or better yet Linux Mint Debian Edition is the best of both worlds.

If you only turn the PC on to watch YouTube, read a document, scan and print, surf the web or game your system should be 100% ok. Unless you're running Manjaro or Arch.

What I don't like about the immutable approach is that it turns my PC into a dumb terminal locked by the distro Devs and updated at their will. It's ok if I have read only on my Android phone because I don't need to get into root etc. That's a good place for immutable.

But I don't want my Linux box at home to be a just an appliance that someone else essentially has control over.

That's very much an Apple approach. Don't let the user see or touch anything. They can just be content to change the wallpaper and add a widget. We'll decide when and how the OS gets updated, what apps they can and cannot run etc.

Ultimately it infringes on user freedom and the very FOSS principles that set Linux apart from the rest.

In short, fine for Enterprise IT but no good for the average Linux user.

path: 0 4768929, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 10
Sentau 8 points 3 years ago

What I don't like about the immutable approach is that it turns my PC into a dumb terminal locked by the distro Devs and updated at their will.

I think you are misunderstanding how immutable distros work. They can be just as configurable as regular distros and in the case of nixOS it is more configurable than popular distros. The point of immutability is to ensure that the system can't be broken during when it is running by a bad update or install or by user making configuration errors as these are applied during reboot. If the system is broken then a earlier snapshot is booted so you always have a working system. You can setup a regular distro with this atomicity and snapshots but it is not as easy as using immutable distros. Yes tinkering and using native packages is harder in most immutable distros but immutables never were a catch all solution. Use what suits you. I was just a little upset that you claimed that immutables are not in the spirit of FOSS. You can even make your own images(base OS) in distros like fedora silverblue and update your system with those images instead of using what the maintainers provide. It is what uBlue uses

path: 0 4768929 4775324, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 3
danielfgom 1 point 3 years ago

Thanks for the correction. 👍

path: 0 4768929 4775324 4776520, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 2
Sentau 1 point 3 years ago

Cheers. Hope you don't shy away from trying immutable distros

path: 0 4768929 4775324 4776520 4776878, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
danielfgom 1 point 3 years ago

I think I'll spin up a VM and try one

path: 0 4768929 4775324 4776520 4776878 4778918, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
kwozyman 5 points 3 years ago

You make a lot of good points, but I have to disagree on the "don't let the user see or touch anything". That's very much not the way immutable distros behave (and I speak mostly about Fedora Silverblue here, I don't have experience with other immutable systems): you can touch and change anything and often times you have mechanisms put in place by the distro developers to do exactly that. It's just that the way you make changes is very different from classical distros, that's all, but you can definitely customize and change whatever you want. I feel the comparison between immutable distros and Apple is really far off: Apple actively prevents users from making changes, while immutable Linux is the opposite -- while there may be some technical limitations, the devs try to empower the user as much as possible.

path: 0 4768929 4771392, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 5
danielfgom 2 points 3 years ago

Thanks for replying. It seems that my impression of immutable might be off. I'm glad to hear you actually can make changes.

I assume the must be some kind of core trust can't be changed? Or does the immutable name refer simply to the ability to roll back?

path: 0 4768929 4771392 4772786, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 4
kwozyman 1 point 3 years ago

The immutable part (again, only speaking about Silverblue, I don't know about others) refers to the inability to make changes online (i.e. without rebooting), but you can eventually change whatever file you want. The way it works is you would make your changes in a copy of the current filesystem and at boot simply mount and use the copy. If something goes wrong, you just mount the original at next boot and you have rolled back.

path: 0 4768929 4771392 4772786 4800427, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
danielfgom 1 point 3 years ago

Fantastic. Thanks for explaining that to me. That actually sounds very good and not at all restrictive. Cool. I can see why things are moving in that direction.

If you do a rollback, I assume your data remains? I assume you might need to reinstall apps which were not in the original? Or does it keep apps, data and settings across a restore?

path: 0 4768929 4771392 4772786 4800427 4801477, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 2
Fjor 1 point 3 years ago

Edit: Tumbleweed is not immutable, you learn something new every day, especially from your mistakes 🙃 (it's still a really nice distro)

Personally really happy with my choice of Immutable Distro: OpenSuse Tumbleweed. To me, who is half a year into using linux, its very convenient to use an immutable system as IF i were to do a wrong command or whatever its super easy to rollback the system (at least on Suse as it uses btrfs-filesystem). Another thing worth mentioning which is also why I chose to go with immutable is that it really teaches you "the good standards" of where to tinker with files and where not to, at least for a beginner like myself this is very nice.

path: 0 4758697, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
Guenther_Amanita 4 points 3 years ago

Tumbleweed isn't immutable

path: 0 4758697 4760164, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0
SquigglyEmpire 2 points 3 years ago

As you already noted Tumbleweed isn't immutable, but it is generally delightful! It's the one I've always been most comfortable with in terms of Rolling Releases

path: 0 4758697 4781759, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
jaykay 0 points 3 years ago

Noted, thanks :)

path: 0 4758697 4760029, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
GustavoM 0 points 3 years ago

Eh, I don't do anything illicit on the internet neither work at NASA or any other high-security-related job... so I'm in the "Lol" side of this whole story.

Compile your commands, kids.

path: 0 4760013, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
Buttermilk 0 points 3 years ago

This is why fedora had a little bar after rebooting when I updated right? What am I a Windows user?!? This is the extent of my understanding of immutable distros and I am furious with them.

path: 0 4759837, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 4
Guenther_Amanita 2 points 3 years ago

I don't know what you mean with your comment?

The progress bar on Gnome-based distros like Fedora and Ubuntu was their offline install.
This increases the likelihood of a successful update without borking your system.
You can always deactivate that or update via terminal.

It has nothing to do with immutable OSs. Actually, most of them even update without you noticing, which is quite convenient imo!

path: 0 4759837 4761078, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 1
Buttermilk 2 points 3 years ago

I was mostly joking and I might have been mis-attributing the delay. From the time's I've had Fedora, including with KDE, if I update I have a pause during the next boot where I have to let the install finish before getting back to functional. My belief was that this was because the immutable system could not be running while updating, compared to non-immutable where a standard reboot works with a new kernel et al.

path: 0 4759837 4761078 4767385, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
beta_tester 1 point 3 years ago
path: 0 4759837 4769507, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
Buttermilk 2 points 3 years ago

I have corrected the one thing I know about immutable distros and am now furious with all others.

path: 0 4759837 4769507 4781988, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
beta_tester 0 points 3 years ago
path: 0 4755314, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 2
Guenther_Amanita 2 points 3 years ago

I wrote a comment above.
That one may interest you and explains why :)

path: 0 4755314 4761088, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
jaykay 1 point 3 years ago

I mean.... you can try it in a VM or live USB :)

path: 0 4755314 4759877, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
possiblylinux127 0 points 3 years ago

I personally don't like them. I just keep my system clean and use distrobox and flatpak

path: 0 4756782, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0
TCB13 -3 points 3 years ago

Immutable distros are all about making thing that were easy into complex, “locked down”, “inflexible”, bullshit to justify jobs and payed tech stacks and a soon to be released property solution.

We had Ansible, containers, ZFS and BTRFS that provided all the required immutability needed already but someone decided that is is time to transform proven development techniques in the hopes of eventually selling some orchestration and/or other proprietary repository / platform / BS like Docker / Kubernetes does.

“Oh but there are truly open-source immutable distros” … true, but this hype is much like Docker and it will invariably and inevitably lead people down a path that will then require some proprietary solution or dependency somewhere that is only required because the “new” technology itself alone doesn’t deliver as others did in the past.

As with CentOS’s fiasco or Docker it doesn’t really matter if there are truly open-source and open ecosystems of immutable distributions because in the end people/companies will pick the proprietary / closed option just because “it’s easier to use” or some other specific thing that will be good on the short term and very bad on the long term. This happened with CentOS vs Debian is currently unfolding with Docker vs LXC/RKT and will happen with Ubuntu vs Debian for all those who moved from CentOS to Ubuntu.

We had good examples of immutable distributions and architectures before as any MIPS router and/or IOT device is usually immutable and there are also reasons why people are moving away from those towards more mutable ARM architectures.

path: 0 4802254, hotness: undefined, score: -3, children: 5
zwekihoyy 4 points 3 years ago

this was a whole bunch of rambling and complaining without amounting to much. what's actually got you upset about increasing the security model?

path: 0 4802254 4802429, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 4
TCB13 0 points 3 years ago
  1. immutable distros don't provide "increased security" at least not when compared to properly done thing; 2) will lead to a path of even more corporate powered repositories, closed sources and payed ecosystems.
path: 0 4802254 4802429 4802484, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 3
zwekihoyy 0 points 3 years ago
  1. it does tho as that is the entire point
  2. it won't, as that logic doesn't make any sense.

** you should remember that desktop Linux as is, is horribly insecure and any security increase is putting you leagues ahead of most others. immutability is ensuring a minimum level of stability and security.

path: 0 4802254 4802429 4802484 4802571, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 2
dino 2 points 3 years ago

You are complaining about rambling and didn't deliver a single argument how immutable distros increase security. Also I think you are wrong big time with 1.

path: 0 4802254 4802429 4802484 4802571 4804147, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
TCB13 2 points 3 years ago
  1. it does tho as that is the entire point

https://tesk.page/...

  1. it won’t, as that logic doesn’t make any sense.

Trust me it does, you'll remember this conversation in a few years and it won't be pleased about the why.

path: 0 4802254 4802429 4802484 4802571 4802615, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
linux
linux

@lemmy.ml

login for more options
68076
9448
5174

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

Rules

  • Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.
  • No misinformation
  • No NSFW content
  • No hate speech, bigotry, etc

Related Communities

Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0

go to feed...