"Officials said that Israel and Egypt were prepared to let foreigners leave the Strip which is under heavy Israeli bombardment, but Hamas had refused."
As a retired Major-General explained on TV over here the other day, Hamas is a Insurrection Movement, which are made of 3 parts, the Political Side, the Military Side and Popular Support.
Want to destroy Hamas, destroy its popular support side.
The current indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians will never destroy it because not only does it increase the Popular Support for any Insurrection Movement against Israel, it also adds to the number of people who would join the military wing of such a movement (i.e. directly put their lives at risk), especially because for all the parroting of Israel's "human shields" propaganda, what the people there see is Israel choosing to bomb and kill their family, so even those who detest Hamas will detest Israel much much more and with good reason.
Unless Israel is willing to commit a Nazi-sized Genocide (which I suspect its current leadership would do if they thought they could get away with, hence their talk of a "second Nakba"), the solution will never be more violence.
Israel really going for a "If there's no witnesses, there's no problem" approach and killing everybody.
They're targetting and killing journalists (and were already doing so before this) and their families.
States murder journalists and their families has no other reason than to stop the truth from coming out, so taking out a couple of tens of thousand who they see as untermenschen to "tie up loose ends" is hardly going to weigh on their consciences.
They’re targetting and killing journalists (and were already doing so before this) and their families.
Well, they ran out of MSF doctors to shoot.
The idea that the atomic bombs directly caused the surrender of Japan is contested, actually. It's more likely that they created an urgency in what was already looking like a losing battle. The difference in that situation is that Japan wasn't fighting a war of resistance at any cost against the US, they were fighting as part of an alliance on one front of a world war. In that case it is very real that troops lose morale, civilian casualties become too great, and loss of military assets make victory look unlikely, and then surrender looks attractive by comparison. But I think in the case of popularly supported resistance to colonizers, that threshold is quite high - people feel quite strongly about revenge and are convinced of the justice of their cause in that situation, so the brutality of their colonizers isn't likely to do anything other than strengthen their resolve.
Frankly, I actually think the atomic bombing and firebombing campaigns would be considered war crimes if they happened today. It's really weird that people justify it so much by how horrible the Japanese state was at the time - tons of innocent civilians, including lots of children, died horribly, and it was 100% anticipated, and in the case of the atomic bombing, they did it twice, knowing that. You can't justify your own actions by the crimes of your enemy.
Underrated comment that everyone should read and understand.
The Pro-Israel crowd will say it is all lies and Israel is really making good friends with all Palestinians then act all shocked that rockets keep flying from gaza at them. Bombing the shit out of Palestinians has worked SO well over the last many decades. Yet they figure 'we just didn't bomb hard enough' to make them like us!
That popular support will never disappear, Hamas is using Muslim vs infidels agenda. You see, that works well to brainwash Muslims worldwide. At no point would they stop cursing Israel and Jew.
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do,
Are you high? https://www.cnn.com/...
Flattening whole communities is as targeted as using a shotgun to kill a fly.
"Israeli precision is a paragon of modern warfare" I've mentioned the strike that hit a vehicle carrying over 70 refugees on a designated safe route, and the claimants of Israeli's amazing military technology have had nothing to say about it.
You call it propaganda, but it’s exactly what Hamas is doing, isn’t it?
You may need to look up 'propaganda'.
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do, and they actively warn the people in those buildings with everything from roof knocking to a phone call.
That doesn't even make sense. If the point is to destroy Hamas assets and people, there's no sense in tipping them off about it. So either they're doing that and destroying people's homes for no reason, or they're not actually doing that.
It's not actually possible to take out military targets like that in civilian neighborhoods with air strikes in a "clean" way. Obviously the only reason they don't go in on the ground with IDF soldiers if they actually have legitimate targets instead is because the lives of Palestinean civilians are less important than the lives of Israeli soldiers, and they know that air strikes don't lead to any casualties on their side.
Buddy, you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on recently have you? Also, a warning drop does nothing but give people time to piss themselves if you only give a hospital a few minutes to evacuate.
Even I knew a day before it happened that they were telling people to leave the hospital with the command center tunnels under it, I saw them talking about it on the BBC so it's a bit rich to pretend only a few minutes was given.
Hamas literally blocked roads going south and shot at civilians trying to flee the combat zone, Israel is going to great lengths to warn the Palestinian people and get them out the way while hamas are doing everything possible to make sure they can't get out the way.
"Israel says "Hi civilian we're about to bomb this building because a Hamas target is inside. Please leave so you are not hurt."
Hamas responds with "Go stand on the roof."
But your suggestion is that Israel is somehow the bad guy there?
You "know" that because the very people bombing civilians told you so.
Only a very special kind of person would trust killers when they provide unverifiable "justifications" for their killings that just so happen to blame somebody else and excuse their actions.
Yes, because people that care about not killing Innocents would say "why don't we go in shoot just the terrorist instead of leveling the whole block?"
It shouldn't be left to Israel but nobody wants to do it, so we get this cluster fuck. Other surrounding nations can help and take in Palestinian refugees/stamp out Hamas, but the truth is that they don't actually care about Palestinians either.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza
Bibi isn't interested in that.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
He's openly calling for genocide.
You've lost the support of the international community and even the US is distancing itself from the approach you are taking. This is a fools errand to try to extract a part of a society by direct force (see Vietnam, Afghanistan <-two different super powers made that mistake). What this will be is an excuse to murder as judge, jury and executioner as you move to further subjugate a civilian population behind closed doors. Literal closed walls in Gaza's case. These kids have grown up knowing nothing but what the adults tell them and looking at the walls that keep them in.
"You name it, I'm sure Israel would be on board with that" How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
“We spoke bluntly and made it clear to the prime minister in no uncertain terms that a comprehensive deal based on the ‘everyone for everyone’ principle is a deal the families would consider, and has the support of all of Israel,” Meirav Leshem Gonen, mother of Romi Gonen, who was kidnapped from the Supernova dance festival, said on behalf of the families in a news conference following the meeting.
Netanyahu was asked about such a deal at his Saturday news conference, and acknowledged he discussed the option with the families.
“I think that elaborating on this will not help achieve our goal. In the meeting with the families, I felt emotionally helpless,” he said.
So maybe not everything. Please don't judge Dan for not responding, He blocked me an hour ago as he didn't like my response to the justification of the 3,000 children that have been bombed to death in Gaza.
edit: deleted two words I accidentally repeated
I mean, exchanging prisoners means freeing those who massacred on oct.7, and come on, Israel is not that stupid to let them run free again. That exchange will bite them tenfold in years to come if they do it (and they realized it now, hence they don't agree to it)
He probably blocked you because you argue in bad faith and lie about your historical examples - like pretending Vietnam wasn't a war of two established, professional militaries just as Korea was.
“You name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that” How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
This, for instance, is an insane proposition and you throw it out like it's the obvious good choice.
Israel has traded 1000 poisoners for a single soldier in the past why is it "an insane proposition" all of a sudden? https://www.cnn.com/...
You sure can't be consistent.
You keep quacking dude don't blame us for noticing it.
You know who doesn't think it's insane? The families of the the hostages who I quote directly underneath that who say that it has the support of all of Israel. Are you calling them liars? Are you disparaging them and saying they're insane? This is the opposite of diplomacy, as you say.
The 8k number also comes from Hamas, the same people who said that 500 people died in the hospital explosion (and blamed it on Israel). Go see the estimates literally anybody else made. All of these numbers come from Hamas.
You know this is propaganda right? That number never came from Hamas go find them quoting it as fact, I'll wait.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera. Other news agencies never fact checked it and ran with the number attributing it to Hamas.
The first step to deradicalize them is to stop putting Palestinians in a concentration camp. Simple as.
What a strange concentration camp that was, where Palestinians were able to go into Israel to work every day, travel abroad, etc. Almost like most other national borders (except for Schengen), where you need a passport and maybe even a visa to enter. Or like the US, where you're not allowed in if they even suspect you're going to work. Also, let's not forget the terrorists that constantly threaten to kill your citizens. Would you let them into your house?
So which is it, are they being allowed freedom of movement into Israel to work with identification, or you don't want them in because they're terrorists who threaten to kill civilians?
All I've seen is that some people were allowed in and out, but it isn't exactly a porous border, identification requirements are strict, getting the necessary approval and documentation is difficult in a place without a functioning state. And you can't just make rules and distance yourself from the consequences of them just because people are unable to meet the requirements of those rules, you have to actually look at what the effect is.
In 2011, a panel of UN experts concluded that the naval blockade of Gaza constituted collective punishment and in doing so violated international law, contradicting a previous UN investigation that declared it was legal.[215]
The debacle prompted criticism even from allies who said Netanyahu had facilitated Hamas’s grip on Gaza as part of a strategy to divide Palestinians.
“Since coming to power in 2009, Netanyahu has built up Hamas as an alternative to the Palestinian Authority,” wrote Yoav Limor, the military affairs correspondent for Israel Hayom, a normally pro-Netanyahu newspaper. “He was warned countless times that this was a dangerous plan: instead of bolstering the pragmatic elements, he strengthened those that will never recognize Israel’s existence.”
Even normally pro-Israeli news outlets are condemning what is happening. https://www.theguardian.com/...
Israel doesn't really want to be rid of Hamas.
Their investment in the group has already paid dividends.
How are they calling to warn anyone? The entire communications infrastructure is so compromised that ambulances are literally just driving towards the sound of explosions rather than being directed.
There's a lot of ways, I've seen leaflet drops, radio (windup fm radios are widely used), telephone calls (mobile) and drones with speakers being used but I'm sure they're also using other methods too
Well no you still need infrastructure for mobile. And there are no reports of drones with speakers. The IDF method was dropping a dud first and they aren't doing that anymore because the mission intensity is too high to sustain it.
Preferably with something smaller than a 2,000 lb bomb. And a flyers bearing a general warning to evacuate does not count when you won't let them through your lines. It's no different to the school bully holding their victim down and "warning" them they're going to get hit.
And even if the Internet is back now, how did they warn anyone in the same 48 hours they bombed even more than before?
And no. They aren't doing knocking. That's something they do in limited operations. Not now.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don't get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I'm sure Israel would be on board with that.
Basically turn them into a mini West bank; people with no means to defend themselves, constantly getting attacked by settlers and the police. Make them believe that this is normal and that they shouldn't defend themselves on your way out.
Let's discuss another place inside of Palestine where there is an opportunity for peace; the West bank ruled by the Fatah government, which recognizes "Israel". They also have no weapons that they can realistically use against settlers and the invading army.
Here's what happens in the West bank, settlements exist in the West bank, settlers murder people in the West bank, and the police are protecting settlers while they're doing it.
Gaza once was under the control of the PLO and Fatah, and there could've been peace, if not for Isn'trael opting to keep building settlements, encouraging people who're being forced out of their homes to pick the more violent approach of Hamas. Which unlike negotiating with an occupying force, did get them to dismantle their disgusting settlements and leave to avoid losing more soldiers.
You could only ACTUALLY get rid of Hamas by getting rid of the current Israeli leadership, because even if you actually knocked out Hamas themselves, the Israeli leadership will just gin up a replacement Hamas to be their strawman in Gaza until they've bombed their way into settlerizing Gaza same way they're doing to the West Bank.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza.
There is a way, it's just excruciatingly difficult and has no chance of happening.
People will excess wealth will need to give up some of that wealth so others can have more.
For example, increasing immigration limits to the US and giving refugees the means to contribute to society, such as housing and utilities. It shouldn't just be the US, either. All nations with excess can pitch in to help. This can be done, but the hand-sitters among us are already chomping at the bit to tell us why it can't.
Each of these individual elements is not in and of itself fascist, but you have to worry when they’re all grouped together, when honest conservatives are lured into fascism by people who tell them, “Look, it’s an existential fight. I know you don’t accept everything we do. You don’t accept every doctrine. But your family is under threat. Your family is at risk. So without us, you’re in peril.” Those moments are the times when we need to worry about fascism.
I wonder what percentage of their rapidly diminishing military might is being used to block foreigners from leaving? seems like a poor allocation of resources... unless there's something they dont want the foreigners to tell the outside world?
It's not like they ever had a chance of winning considering their definition of winning is driving the Jews into the sea. Their whole purpose is to fuck shit up and cause maximum damage and this makes sense in that context.
that's their endgame? how does that work when they're surrounded on all sides (counting the sea)?
If you want an actual answer they want the Islamic world to unite and kill everyone else, it's been a pretty constant theme for a while now from middle Eastern terror groups.
That's why the fundamentalists in change (and not living in Gaza) wanted to commit an attack Israel could not ignore, nation's like Saudi Arabia and Jordan we're getting on too well with Israel and that would ruin their chances for a middle Eastern caliphate...
ah, a pipe dream then. gotcha. yeah, caliphates arent going to make a comeback.
Pretty sure their definition of winning is not getting genocide by said Jews
Then think again. They literally say what their goal is - a forceful end to Israel. And that nothing less will be enough - and that they'll keep killing civilians until that goal is met.
From the footage at Rafah, feels like hundreds of foreign nationals are gathered waiting an okay from Israel and Egypt. I don't see WHY Hamas would even care to stop Palestinian Americans from leaving to the states.
Hamas intends to use those people as leverage to get their home countries to exert pressure on Israel. Hamas is basically taking them hostage.
Is there any source for that idea, or that this is actually happening? The only source for this article are US officials, who are full-throated allies of Israel, so there likely could be a bias. Telegraph is widely known as biased.
I'm just saying that a group that has taken ACTUAL hostages certainly isn't above using foreign nationals as quasi-hostages to pressure other countries to exert influence on Israel to get them to stop shelling Gaza.
Meatshield
It's not like that stops Israel from butchering civilians anyway, so again how does this work?
To downvoters: It's a fact that Israel is killing civilians while trying to kill Hamas fighters. After killing nearly 8.5k civilians, they got maybe a couple of dozen of Hamas fighters "dead", but how would they even be able to confirm it when they aren't in Gaza? It's a known indisputable fact that the so-called "human shield" used by Hamas has never stopped and will never stop Israel from shooting or bombing the civlian population.
But again, it's because "proximity shielding" is something countries made up so they can do genocide or accomplish whatever urban warfare goal while at the same time not giving a single fuck about the lives of civilians or hostages in that area.
They don't see the Palestinians, they see the Americans, and Americans are hostages and also decadents who deserve being knocked down a peg
Hmmm... Pretty sure the majority of those looked like American Palestinians. They are not bargaining chips since not even their own government cared enough to lift a finger and get them out.
Right now, the Israelis are bombing the Rafah crossing and blaming Hamas for the dead.
Hamas doesn't need to do anything. All they have to do is say nobody's getting out, which means the IDF can assume anyone running towards the exit is a terrorist making an attack. I think any foreign nationals that would ever travel to Gaza know better than to approach Israeli forces for help.
If there's anyone that doesn't want the outside world to know what's up, ask the folks who recently cut off internet access to Gaza. Who was it? It wasn't Hamas.
Do you seriously think Israel shut off internet to hide what's inside? Do you know satellites exist? Do you know cameras exist? How in the world was that preventing anyone from seeing into Gaza?
Try to think as an army for just a second. When you send your troops into unknown territory which is 100% trapped, you wanna confuse your enemy. And shutting communication is exactly that.
It absolutely fails at hiding what's going on in Gaza from being revealed, but it *50% succeeds in making their enemies blind during their attack. It's just a military tactic. A proven and effective one.
None. This is the Telegraph a known israeli propaganda outlet. Israel is literally bombing the border crossing and this newspaper is telling you that Hamas is the one responsible for it.
Israel will strike an area and kill hundreds of people. If there are males 16-30 killed they will say they were militants often, and that the civilians were collateral damage due to the use of proximity shielding. They do not go in and verify whether or not the people killed were militants. This is an age old tactic, the US would do the same to shift blame for atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan.
not incorrect, but it's a common tactic used in Asymmetrical Warfare that is seen in the Levant when one side dwarf the other in conventional military size and strength
is it honorable? no, but it one of the few tactics hamas has in operating against Israel
As an atheist, I’ve generally avoided that area of the world. I’m quite happy to not be directly involved in this stupidity.
No need to ship em anywhere if you have them all surrounded in a prison called Gaza and drop death on em. ^Say's the coward that complains about people being able to see your racist and fascistic posts after you block them. "why can't I say these horrific things without anyone dissenting!"
being against Israel doesn't mean you hate Jews you fucking weirdo
Nazis were explicitly Christian lol
Nazi Germany was overwhelmingly Christian. The athiests of the time were fighting or contributing to the war efforts of their country just like every other person was. There just wasn't too many openly atheistic people due to the discrimination at the time.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
Who's doing an auschwitz again?
I’m a coward?
"Israel blocks anyone and anything from going into or out of Gaza."
The Rafah Border Crossing is the only crossing point between Egypt and the Gaza Strip. It lies on the international border that was confirmed by the 1979 Egypt–Israel peace treaty and the 1982 Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula. The Rafah Border Crossing can only be used for the passage of persons. All goods traffic must use the Kerem Shalom border crossing on the Israel-Gaza border.
The Rafah Land Port became the primary border crossing between Egypt and Gaza, managed by the Israel Airports Authority until Israel had dismantled its settlements in Gaza on 11 September 2005 as part of a disengagement plan. It subsequently became the task of the European Union Border Assistance Mission Rafah (EUBAM) to monitor the crossing.
In the 2023 Israel–Hamas war that began in October, the crossing was again effectively sealed. The Egyptian government refused to allow either Gazans or foreign nationals to exit Gaza via the Rafah crossing, despite intensive international efforts to secure a window of time for the Rafah crossing to open to foreigners who want to exit the Strip.
The Philadelphi Route, also called Philadelphi Corridor, is a narrow strip of land, 14 km (8.699 miles) in length, situated along the entirety of the border between Gaza Strip and Egypt. Under the provisions of the Egypt–Israel peace treaty of 1979, it was established as a buffer zone controlled and patrolled by Israeli forces. One purpose of the Philadelphi Route was to prevent the movement of illegal materials (including weapons and ammunition) and people between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphi_Route
Tl;Dr: Europe, Egypt and Israel all play a part in managing that border. The only party that has zero control over this border is Gaza.
Oh damn, I just looked at a map, and Gaza also borders the ocean. Clearly people and goods can flow freely in/out of Gaza that way also. My mistake.
But what about the Egyptian side, is Israel in your opinion blocking that too?
Israel in your opinion blocking that too?
https://www.commondreams.org/...
Despite urging Palestinians and others caught in Gaza to flee the northern areas, bombings that claimed the lives of yet more civilians—including children—were reported in Khan Younis and the city of Rafah.
The attacks came hours after the IDF's Rear Adm Daniel Hagari called on Gaza’s residents to move south "for your own safety."
Rafah is directly opposite the Egyptian border.
While the Egyptian government has made clear that it refuses to accept large numbers of Palestinian refugees from Gaza, fearful of the political and security repercussions, it has ordered hospitals in northern Sinai and elsewhere to prepare to take in wounded patients from the enclave — as they have during past rounds of fighting. As Israel pummels besieged Gaza, Egypt resists opening up to refugees
“This border is open to take in any injured,” said Diaa Rashwan, head of Egypt’s State Information Service, at a news conference in front of the Rafah crossing Tuesday. He added that the World Health Organization has inspected “all the hospitals and medical facilities” but that “the occupying forces prevent the crossing from the Palestinian side” — a reference to Israel.
No. Egypt is blocking that. Egypt is paid inordinate amounts of money by the US to do so.
The Torygraph is a step up from the lowest tier tabloid.
Fun fact! ^He puts Palestinians in quotation marks because he doesn't believe they have any right to the land, can't claim it as a real country and because he thinks none of them are civilians and are actually all terrorists. The more you know!
No one is an "Israeli". They're either a Jewish citizen of Palestine, an outsider in Palestine, or a disgusting settler living in someone else's house (not even human).
Of course they are human. Humans take other people's homes, too.
And while I agree with your overall point, I don't think it's helpful to deny anyone their identity. Israelis are citizens of Israel and they and their government have a chance to set this all right and not be a goddamn apartheid ethnostate.
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There's got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn't leave it to Israel lol.
It probably involves with allying with the PLO or some more secular faction of Palestinians, and Egypt. But they'd need to give something to them or else no one has a reason to support them unless they have some victories they can point to.
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