Israel orders Gazans to flee, bombs where it sends them

3 years ago by sousmerde{retardatR} to c/nottheonion

Israel ordered people out of swathes of the main southern city in the Gaza Strip on Monday (December 4) as it pressed its ground campaign deep into the south, sending desperate residents fleeing even as it dropped bombs on areas where it told them to go. Lucy Fielder has more.
hark 96 points 3 years ago

Look at all that self defense israel is doing.

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Bakkoda 16 points 3 years ago

Best defense is a good offense?

/s

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MTLion3 65 points 3 years ago

Raise your hands if you’re shocked. Literally nobody should raise their hands

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sousmerde_retardatr 33 points 3 years ago

If the most recent death toll wasn't enough, here's something else showing that they don't really care about keeping an appearance, as well as another U.N. school, i don't know what to say or do, everyone knows that they won't destroy "Hamas" :

If their goal was only to send a message, then there's no point to be that extreme, the only reason left that i can see is that they want to keep the Gaza Strip, it's always a bet but they considered that they'll be allowed to(, in which case their security would indeed be increased by getting rid of all palestinians).
Their neighbours would have to be quite desperate to think that embracing Israel and the west is still their best option, but if they do it'd probably be for economic reasons, and/or perhaps fears of retaliations, i.d.k., we'll see how it'll evolve in the future, but i can't believe that they would kill all of these people and destroy everything without a real goal, sending a pointless message isn't one, nor is the unrealistic aim of destroying "Hamas", i find it hard to imagine them simply going back to their side as if they accomplished something by pointlessly mass murdering thousands of childrens&humans on the other side of the wall, awful that this senseless option of a useless massacre is the most desirable.

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NoneOfUrBusiness 6 points 3 years ago

Their neighbours would have to be quite desperate to think that embracing Israel and the west is still their best option, but if they do it’d probably be for economic reasons, and/or perhaps fears of retaliation

Not quite. Israel managed to get the Arab states on their side, and the US is helping using aid (this is why Egypt is helping Israel in its blockade of Gaza, for instance). Arab leaders aren't victims of an oppressive international order; they're willing traitors.

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sousmerde_retardatr 0 points 3 years ago

When you look at the amount of suffering other countries in the region, all anti-zionists, had/have to go through, i won't blame some of them to conclude that it'd be better for everyone to just draw a line on the past and accept Israel.
They may think that they're entitled to something in exchange, but that they're not united/strong enough to impose their will or 'reject their alliance with'/'put more&more pressure on' the west. So be it then if it's a sacrifice worth making.

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DarkGamer -31 points 3 years ago

Neither random tweets, nor Reutir seem like a good sources, take a look at Reutir's "about us" page.

I wouldn't be surprised if they annex Gaza, at least the north part. Bibi says he wants security control over it...

i can’t believe that they would kill all of these people and destroy everything without a real goal

They say they're there to depose Hamas, I'm not sure why you say it's unrealistic. Game theory could support a harsh response, imposing a high cost should anyone consider future attacks against Israel's civilians. Netanyahu is very unpopular right now so it could also be a political move to appease voters who want some revenge/justice/catharsis.

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masquenox 14 points 3 years ago

Game theory could support a harsh response,

You mean the brutality everybody was ignoring before Hamas' attack that didn't manage to prevent such an attack?

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DarkGamer -16 points 3 years ago

Well we don't know what would have happened on the other timeline where gaza didn't face consequences for electing Hamas.

Deterrence means there had to be reprisals even if you think things were brutal beforehand. They clearly got more brutal. Suggesting they should maintain the status quo after such an attack doesn't make sense to me.

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funkpandemic 13 points 3 years ago

imposing a high cost should anyone consider future attacks against Israel's civilians.

Right now they're giving gazans tens of thousands of reasons to want revenge against this bloodthirsty regime. They're actually doing the opposite. Yes go devastate these people who have nothing left to lose, that's definitely how you reduce extremism.

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fosforus -3 points 3 years ago
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DarkGamer -7 points 3 years ago

Pretend you are in charge of Israel, how would you have responded to the attack against your civilians? This was predictable, inevitable, and arguably the least bad choice.

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Machinist3359 13 points 3 years ago

Yeah, bombing people is notoriously good at deterring further political violence (/s obviously).

What do you call collective punishment again? A War Cream? No that's not right ...

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DarkGamer -22 points 3 years ago

It's called war between nations, asymmetrical war but war nonetheless. They're not starving out Gaza and demanding civilians bring them hamas, they're going in there themselves.

If Gaza surrenders then terms like war crimes for collective punishment start making sense. Right now they have their own government which happens to be comprised of belligerent terrorists. Israel isn't leaving until that's no longer the case.

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sousmerde_retardatr 7 points 3 years ago

random tweets

He's the director of the World Health Organization, and many articles are talking about many U.N. schools, the most recent one has been linked to this video, and when you look at one of these schools, here, it's not hard to imagine it being bombed in regard to the surrounding desolation. It's more symbolic of their unwillingness to create safe zones than anything else, they even bombed refugee camps, and are used to kill innocent civilians in order to settle on their lands anyway.

You can't depose Hamas, even if they managed to kill all of their leaders(, who don't reside in the Gaza strip anyway), they'll just elect new ones, i thought that this was obvious to everyone else. Even if Hitler was killed the third reich would have continued existing, the same goes for Israel if you kill Netanyahu, or the u.s.s.r. if you killed Stalin, there are a few modifications but the state doesn't suddenly disappear, sry but i shouldn't have to explain such obvious things and i'm afraid that a lot of other people think like you even if it's so obviously delusional.
Game theory ? They were attacked because they stole these (holy )lands, and were continuing to steal more and more of them, committing atrocities almost every day(, or at least week,) in a complete silence from "the free world". What's the point, would killing 100 persons in retaliation deter palestinians from fighting back ? 1000 ? 3000 ? 5000 ? When does it stop ? I wouldn't think that someone really say that the more Israel kills and the safer they'll be, how could it make any sense, they'll only be hated even more, do you think that they're acting guided by their emotions when they're expressing themselves so calmly ? Are palestinians allowed to "deter" israelis from acting like they do by killing even more of them ? Westerners had even more attacks on their territories once they wanted to "avenge" the first attacks by killing so much more people, in truth it's obvious to almost everyone that vengeance wasn't our goal, but our objectives were geopolitical, and were attained by burning everything held by the islamists, and torturing&killing the prisoners. I hope that they're not thinking that their only way to prevent such attacks is to mass murder thousands of innocents, especially considering that their walls were effective for decades.
Netanyahu is already at the end of his political career, your explanation is awful if true, but i've already talked about the blinded desire for revenge without any aim, i can't think that they're only guided by emotions when acting so rationally, they're head of states not teenagers in a video game, if they're doing something like that it's in order to gain something that couldn't be obtained otherwise.
I don't agree with you because i can't see the point : is it really a blind/stupid desire of revenge ? Just killing innocents everywhere without any other goal than that ?

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DarkGamer -11 points 3 years ago

You can’t depose Hamas, even if they managed to kill all of their leaders(, who don’t reside in the Gaza strip anyway), they’ll just elect new ones

That has yet to be established, but it sounds like you're making a case for annexation. If they are unwilling to pacify themselves, that seems like the most humane remaining option that keeps Israel safe.

They were attacked because they stole these (holy )lands, and were continuing to steal more and more of them,

Those lands were annexed because Palestinians declared war on Israel and lost, funny how the anti-Israel crowd always conveniently forgets this and portrays the Palestinians as victims when they were absolutely the aggressors.

What’s the point, would killing 100 persons in retaliation deter palestinians from fighting back ? 1000 ? 3000 ? 5000 ?

If they are reasonable, yes it would. It would encourage them to find a path to peace. Perhaps they are not reasonable, their history of poking the bear, popular support of intifada and a one-state solution where they deny rights to Jews certainly seems to indicate an unwillingness to compromise, which led to their present situation.

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orrk 3 points 3 years ago

ah yes, game theory, the every man's justification for the flavor of foreign policy made popular by the literal Nazis, yes Realpolitik (in this context) was heavily pushed by Nazis and war criminals the world over, after all it thrives on homogenizing any groups, justifies collateral punishments, along with expansionist empires, and oppressing minority populations.

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DarkGamer -5 points 3 years ago

Game theory & realpolitik = Nazis? Also absurd. You don't seem to have a good understanding of what defined the Nazis, because you keep invoking them for ridiculous comparisons. Hitler liked puppies, liking puppies does not make one meaningfully Hitler-like.

I'm talking about acknowledging the reality of their situation and the likely behaviors and reactions of each actor. Game theory & realpolitik. Something every nation should do.

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Therealgoodjanet 56 points 3 years ago

I’ll repeat a comment I made a while ago:

“Please move over there to that big X on the ground, and we will definitely not bomb it.

-Sincerely the IOF”

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bradorsomething 50 points 3 years ago

And yet they’re going to be so pissed off when Schindler’s List is remade one day with someone who’s shielding Palestinians.

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DarkGamer -119 points 3 years ago

Yeah, Jews aren't doing anything like extermination programs, 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims. This is war, not genocide.

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masquenox 58 points 3 years ago
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DarkGamer -47 points 3 years ago

Sorry to interrupt your circle jerk with disagreement that leads to actual discussion and debate

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masquenox 30 points 3 years ago
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Fedizen 54 points 3 years ago

This is literally an extermination program being done with missiles instead of gas chambers, there's no other reason to lie about safe areas to civilians and use it to collect them in the same place to kill as many as possible. This is literally how the germans used the death showers in concentration camps.

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DarkGamer -46 points 3 years ago

Israel has been very clear that they will attack Hamas targets no matter where they are, inside or outside the evacuation area. If they wanted to just kill all the Palestinians they could have by now but they haven't. They built sophisticated AI to select their targets so that they can claim their targets are valid military ones.

I mean there's a real legitimate case to be made that they need to select their military targets more carefully or that the amount of civilian collateral damages too high, and I feel like that all gets overlooked when instead It gets replaced with the ridiculous claim that israel is trying to genocide all the civilians, which is obviously wrong.(Israel is comprised of many of the same ethnic groups you claim they are genociding.)

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Fedizen 26 points 3 years ago

Look if they were actually trying to avoid civilian casualties the amount of kids killed would not be nearly so high. There wouldn't be bombed ambulances.

This isnt war this is slaughter of civilians. Just because they're using different technology to do it doesn't mean its a sparkling war instead of a genocide.

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orrk 16 points 3 years ago

70% of casualties are women and children, this doesn't mean that 30% are Hamas, after all most men also aren't part of Hamas, just that they are actively targeting civilians

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spirinolas 11 points 3 years ago

Israel has been very clear that they will attack Hamas targets no matter where they are, inside or outside the evacuation area

So...unless Israel is lying then Hamas is everywhere. If Hamas is in every place the IDF dropped bombs they are, by far, the biggest army in the world. No wonder Israel is so trigger happy.

Unless...

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ReiRose 11 points 3 years ago

"If they wanted to just kill all the Palestinians they could have by now but they haven't."

If this Israeli government wanted to kill all the Palestinians without looking like that was their plan they would bomb them slowly over an extended period of time while making a human shield argument.

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riodoro1 31 points 3 years ago

Shit, it must be true since DarkGamer says so on lemmy.

We can safely ignore the whole Palestine topic guys

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Noerttipertti 25 points 3 years ago

Either you're drinking the cool-aid or forgot the "/s". Can't really tell.

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NoneOfUrBusiness 9 points 3 years ago

They're not. This guy is a bona-fide Zionist.

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NoneOfUrBusiness 22 points 3 years ago

You know why only 20% are Palestinians? Because everyone else was expelled in 1949.

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DoomBot5 -5 points 3 years ago

Hmm, reminds me of several middle eastern countries where the Jewish population now sits at 0% because literally every single one was either murdered or expelled.

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NoneOfUrBusiness 6 points 3 years ago

Yeah that's also really bad and one of the dumbest and most morally abhorrent things the Arab states did the last century.

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NoneOfUrBusiness 5 points 3 years ago

Yeah that's also really bad and one of the dumbest and most morally abhorrent things the Arab states did the last century.

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fosforus -6 points 3 years ago
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DarkGamer -22 points 3 years ago

Probably had something to do with them declaring war on Israel. Some were driven out, some left voluntarily. Those who stayed and were not belligerent seem to be fairing much better than those who keep trying to kill Israelis.

Jordan did the same shit in the West Bank when they won, funny how they have different rules I guess.

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iegod 19 points 3 years ago

Lmao no.

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PhlubbaDubba 16 points 3 years ago

That 20% gets treated like dirt and members of the governing coalition are calling for deporting them into Gaza for "disloyalty"

It's a genocide.

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TheBat 42 points 3 years ago
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orrk 11 points 3 years ago

the IDF has probable intel that there may or may not be a member of Hamas in that crowd, thus they are human shields and the IDF is clean of all wrong doing

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ghostdoggtv 3 points 3 years ago

Has anyone ever seen Bibi and Hamas in the same room?

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Blackmist 21 points 3 years ago

Can you stand in a line please, we're running short on bullets.

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Thcdenton 17 points 3 years ago

"We do a little bit of trolling" - IDF probably

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CriticalMiss 12 points 3 years ago

Israel clearly meant that 'south' means Egypt.

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Goferking0 5 points 3 years ago

Or anywhere that isn't Gaza or Isreal

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roastedDeflator 4 points 3 years ago path: 0 5841087, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0
fosforus 2 points 3 years ago
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de_lancre -7 points 3 years ago
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worldsayshi 5 points 3 years ago

Don't bomb civilians. Don't bomb Palestinians. Don't bomb Israelis. Don't kill children. Don't kill. Don't kidnap people.

Is that hard? I mean sure the world might be more complicated but regardless of that the above seems like a very consistent and simple starting point of an opinion? It seems easier to start with "don't bomb people" as a starting point than "don't bomb some people" as a starting point.

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de_lancre -2 points 3 years ago
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worldsayshi 2 points 3 years ago

Things that should be relatively non controversial:

  • There's no simple solution.

  • Palestinian civilians is not equal to Hamas.

  • Hamas is a terror organisation

  • Israel army is currently exercising too much violence on Palestinians

  • Israel clearly has the military advantage.

More vague points:

That puts most of the responsibility of how the situation develops in Israel hands. They can't change the minds of the Palestinians. But they have the power to minimise total harm. They should be able to keep a lower rate of casualties on the Palestinian side without significantly increasing casualties on the Israeli side? No?

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de_lancre -3 points 3 years ago
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Therealgoodjanet 4 points 3 years ago

Nothing to be confused about.

Supporting Palestine and Palestinians is not the same as supporting Hamas. I can’t believe we have to keep repeating that.

The one and only party here that is ethnically cleansing the land and committing genocide is Israel, not Palestine.

It’s pretty simple really.

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de_lancre -3 points 3 years ago
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Therealgoodjanet 2 points 3 years ago

What you described there is a war crime: International humanitarian law posits that no person may be punished for acts that he or she did not commit.

Article 33 - Individual responsibility, collective penalties, pillage, reprisals No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. Pillage is prohibited. Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

Source: Geneva Conventions (GCIV Art. 33).

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de_lancre -3 points 3 years ago
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