Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x04 "Among the Lotus Eaters"
3 years ago by ValueSubtracted to c/startrek
Written by Kirsten Beyer & Davy Perez
Directed by Eduardo Sanchez
Returning to a planet that dredges up tragic memories, Captain Pike and his landing party find themselves forgetting everything, including their own identities as he confronts a ghost from his past.
Annotations up at https://startrek.website/post/282663.
This was a very TOS episode yet in terms of feel.
The dialogue could easily have come from the mouths of the TOS cast, and the situation on the planet reminiscent of officers violating the Prime Directive like in TOS: āThe Omega Gloryā or āBread and Circusesā. Even Mount's delivery when on the planet was Shatner-esque.
I can readily imagine Kirk, McCoy and a random redshirt or Chekov on the planet in Pike, MāBenga and LaāAnās place, and Sulu pulling it together like Ortegas.
I agree that it has a genuine TOS feel.
Especially as it gets back to the mid 20th century thought experiments around how the mind functions, but informed my more current understanding of memory, cognitive function and emotion.
I wasnāt quite sure the balance of the scenes was what it could have been, but it was good to see all of the main cast having their moments. I was nonetheless frustrated that Number One was quickly sidelined once again.
Also I was uncomfortable with how far Pike was willing to go in his aggression in order to get information from Zack. I believe weāre supposed to feel that, but it did feel that it was pushed just that moment longer to drive home the point that Pikeās deep ethics are what keeps him in check, not his emotions. It also tracks with his anger and how he even used it to break the thrall of the Talosians in The Cage.
But overall, I liked it. Itās a deeper and more challenging episode than it may seem on the surface, first watch. I suspect it will be one that stands up over a longer horizon.
I felt like they were trying to show Captain Pike as going a little far when beating up Zac, but I thought he was being totally reasonable given the situation of "this guy knows how to keep your memories and you really really need to force him to hand that information over." There was no way for him to know all he had to do was wait around in the palace for a little while.
It's an interesting insight into Pike's character - the fact that he had to remember not to beat the crap out of Zac implies that innately he's not a pacifist or a nice guy; that dark side is something he's learned to keep in check.
@psychothumbs @khaosworks That *was* interesting. His instincts work overpowering Zac in the phaser battle but then we donāt actually know if heāll ārememberā he canāt just beat him senseless afterwards. Maybe weāll see some Pike backstory at some point that shows him learning ethical lessons when heās younger.
hmm. This makes me wonder. Is there a way to link to a specific message thread, that is universal across instances?
If not, it seems like it's a feature that is sorely needed.
Yeah theres a sort of goofy way memory loss works and how it was still taken very seriously gave me a good old school trek vibe which I dug throughout the episode.
Wow, these SNW writers really bring it each week, don't they? Not to say every episode is perfect but I've found every single one to be very entertaining and exactly what I want out of Star Trek in 2023. The combination of standalone stories mixed with underlying character development and arcs is perfect.
As for this week, the idea of encountering a planet that could make you forget everything was weirdly creepy, if not a bit implausible. Even if this wasn't her showcase episode, I grinned at Ortega's "I AM THE PILOT!" moment. Also enjoyed the away team being out of sorts on the planet which I thought was well done and not an action overdose like the season opener.
I know the feeling! SNW's theme and opening credits definitely bring back memories of eagerly looking forward to TNG every week. It's easily my favorite Trek theme since TNG.
SNW really is a masterclass in balancing episodic and narrative storytelling.
I'd love to attend a workshop/lecture with Goldsman, Myers, et al.
Memory loss is one of the scariest things in the known universe. This is a horror episode to me.
@BorgDrone @ValueSubtracted As a person with tinnitus, it seemed important to me. Let me know exactly what was going on. It's also very common in video games, for example when someone is dazed by a nearby explosion. Again it conveyed a lot of meaning to me and helped explain what they were going through.
Ooh, look at this guy with ten speakers! Fancy pants over here! : P
It seemed a perfectly harmless and appropriate volume to me listening on headphones. Perhaps your bass needs adjustment.
It seemed a perfectly harmless
As someone with tinnitus, it not only hurt, but triggered my tinnitus to be worse for the rest of the day.
Far from harmless. I had a proper issue with the excessive ringing in this episode.
Haha I kept worrying that my cats and baby would be disturbed by it but fortunately they didn't seem to react much.
Thoughts as I watch:
So, I'm wondering: is Cayuga a reference to Rod Serling? He named his production company that in reference to the lake in New York.
Relationships suck when you are a Starfleet captain who knows your destiny to one day be in a beepie chair.
Rigel 7, a deep cut!
We have gone (ZERO) days without some sort of Starfleet prime directive problem.
Finally, some Ortegas action!
"THE HAT IS SUPREME." I'm going to have to use that in conversation.
Oh man, at least she keeps the hat.
"Subdermal universal translators" are the new translation microbes
Oh boy, they have starfleet tech.
Ah, we've got a good old-fashioned "Federation citizen takes over a world" episode!
"This is a cage." Heh.
Forgetting is a scary side effect for a planet.
I get that they were only on there for like four hours, but shouldn't they have noticed stuff like this their last visit? Or maybe... THEY LOST
"Welcome to Memento/50 First Dates Planet"
Can still remember how to fight!
So I'm guessing Spock is probably one of the more resistant to all of this due to his Vulcan-ness.
Man, La'An is having a REALLY bad pair of weeks.
Captain Pike even without his memories is still Captain Pike. Makes sense.
Okay, I guess Spock isn't immune.
Glad to see the Connie class had GPS.
I gotta admit, I feel like Pelia would be good in this episode given just how many memories she has to lose and how many skills she has.
SHE FLIES THE SHIP
The ship's computer is great this week.
Damn, that is some tough silverware, standing up to phaser blasts.
Is it just me or is that a fresco or whatever of Alexander the Great... Zac-ized?
Okay, that logic doesn't quite seem sound, but whatever.
So, uhm, be careful about telling her about the Beepy-chair, Chris.
āThis is a cage.ā Heh.
I hope that one day Captain Pike visits a zoo and says "this is a menagerie".
I thought it was Cuyahoga? correct me if i'm wrong pls
Itās Cayuga, as per the closed captioning, and itās likely no coincidence. As I noted in my annotations, the Cayuga first appeared in āA Quality of Mercyā, which shares a title with a 1961 Twilight Zone episode starring Leonard Nimoy. And TZ was produced by Serlingās production company, Cayuga Productions.
Yes, I noticed that in your annotations over at... the other place. Interestingly enough, Roddenberry spoke at a memorial for Serling in 1975
I post them as a stand-alone in c/DaystromInstitute every week now.
Thank you!
shares a title with a 1961 Twilight Zone episode starring Leonard Nimoy.
For better or worse, I'm not sure "starring" is quite the right description. Nimoy has like three lines and a couple minutes of screen time. I found it rather jarring to recognize Nimoy early in the episode and then see so little of him after.
Featuring, perhaps.
Ok, at the risk of sounding like a filthy casual, it's only now when I'm digging into Memory Alpha that I realized we're finally getting visualization of what Pike was so miserable about in TOS the Cage. I was like, why does Rigel VII sound so familiar...
This is the kind of retcon I live for!!
Definitely felt like classic trek this week. Fun episode. I was really hoping we would get a more in depth episode for Ortegas' character. I did read something last year that she was getting her own episode, so im going to assume this wasn't it.
I did let out a big guffaw when I realized their bait and switch. Started it out like it was going to be an Ortegas focused episode, and then Spock comes in and pops hers and everyone else's bubble with his Vulcan science. Loved how she put the hat back on as she was walking away, as if to say "I'm gonna wear this for a while longer because I can, dammit."
@ieightpi
She didn't get her own episode but at least a cool hat.š
At the start of the episode, when Ortegas was getting ready for the away mission, I thought this episode would have the scene from the start of the season 2 trailer where she (gleefully) pilots a shuttle down to a planet.
At least we know she will eventually get to go on an away mission!
This episode should have started in media res, with the away team already on planet and having lost their memories. Once we got the explainer as to what was happening, then we could return to the Enterprise to show the growing crisis there, and finally wrap everything up as the episode already did.
No.... I juste have a hate for most of the Trek episodes starting with a catastrophic situation and a blackout with a "XX hours ago..." captions...
Top easy writing.... At least, they build the tension here
I couldn't agree more. It feels like lazy storytelling, and I actually appreciated this episode for not resorting to that kind of fakery. It's setup was strong enough to be its own thing. I respect that a lot.
Really enjoyed this episode, it didn't make the most sense at times but made up for it with an extremely disturbing core concept. And there is comfort in the idea that even without a significant portion of our memories, we're still "us".
I'm confused about one thing though and maybe I just missed something so someone can enlighten me. If the palace is so well-protected that just literally being inside it for ten minutes is enough to completely reverse the memory loss, why was Pike first affected by it while standing in the palace? Is it just that they weren't in there for very long during their first encounter with Zac, and the symptoms caught up with him, or did I miss something about how that worked?
I've been waiting for the crew explore a new planet. Hoping there's more of these episodes than less
Thatās probably one of my favorite episodes of the series as a viewing experience, it was pretty entertaining. I donāt think I quite trackā¦the message, though? In the span of about three minutes we get explicitly told that for Pike and Ortegas the memory loss could be revealing experience that identified the core of the self, while for their friend on the planet it was an obscuring experience that robbed him of things he didnāt know were important. You can explain away the difference with plot logic pretty easily, but thematically itās a bit weird to juxtapose them right next to each other
I think it makes sense that a brief bout of amnesia like that could be revealing of your underlying traits and feelings, but that in the normal course of things it's very important to have your memories.
Miles O'Brien: "First time?"
Still somewhat annoyed that there is no seat belt on the shuttle, even if it is to maintain continuity with TOS. M'Benga looked like he was going to bang his head and get a concussion when they were landing.
La'an: They won't see us coming.
Zac: We totally saw you from the other side of the planet a hemisphere away.
What was Zac trying to accomplish? He lured them there with the Starfleet Delta, but he was not going to hitch a ride home. He expected whatever ship that comes to inspect to... forget and go away, or suffer some disastrous result when the crew become unable to function? Why not just stay low and be king if he wasn't planning to leave?
Zac didnāt intend for Starfleet to notice the delta. He was content to just stay on Rigel VII as High Lord Zacarias, thinking that Starfleet would never return to the planet because of the debris field and the radiation. But then the Kalar used the delta as a symbol and it got spotted.
PIKE: Zac. We saw your message, the, um... the Delta in the garden. It's why we came. Isn't that why you did it?
ZAC: The people here adopted it as my symbol. I should have known better. It's all getting torn out tomorrow.
Thanks. I tried to watch with subtitles off and predictably missed some of the conversation.
This episode belongs together with the better episodes of TNG. I liked it a lot.
It's a common trope that the away teams really shouldn't be landing in these planets without any idea what's down there without an alien style hazmat suit and here we go, another example :) I GUESS they get a pass because they were here before and the effects didn't happen because they were not here long enough
also really strange they don't confirm that people were dead? Or try and go back and get their bodies which might have equipment/ com badges /might even be alien (Spock was there and he bleeds green), maybe starfleet shouldn't be so careless about what they leave behind...
No EV suit would have protected them, either - the Enterprise was affected as well.
They handled that subtly - I was wondering why they didn't raise shields against the radiation, but the shimmering impact of the debris field seen when Ortegas was in her quarters showed that shields were indeed up, so that mean the radiation could get through shields. Then it was mentioned that Spock tweaked the shield harmonics at the end - I guess he didn't earlier because he was already affected.
I think at the time they lacked sufficient information to modulate the shields, which is why moving the ship into the astroids seemed logical.
I wrote this as I was watching:
If I remember correctly, the very first scene of S1E1 was Batel waking up in Pike's bed, so.. yeah :D
The first scene of the first episode, even.
@cyberic @ValueSubtracted She was in S1E1, scene 1. She was trying to get him to leave his cabin and get back to work.
She was in "A Quality of Mercy" as well.
For the last one: Spock stated that the previous mission they hadn't stayed as long as they were when the effects started happening.
Your 2nd point is valid for Tinnitus sufferers like myself I think. I found the early moments of the episode quite uncomfortable as a result of hearing that tone amongst the already present tones in my real world!
I think he forgot how to read English. I suspect had he remembered how to switch his padd to a Vulcan script, he would have been able to read that. Maybe.
I rewatched the beginning and around 10:17 Spock mentioned that the collision was hundreds of years ago, so they should have felt the effects on the previous mission. Then in the shuttle they mention that the meteor was already there for thousands of years.... So I'm just more confused why the memory effects weren't there before.
They said in the episode that the original mission had been so short (4 hours if I recall correctly), Pike's crew had not felt the effects.
Yup, they basically touched down, immediately encountered some nasty violent opposition, and cut their losses and left bleeding. It was bad enough to make Pike question his fitness as a leader.
If I remember right, sheās in the very first scene of SNW. A bearded Pike in Alaska riding a horse to a cabin where theyāre staying together. Sheās gently needling him about whether he should go back to a command. I think sheās about to leave to go back to her ship after a vacation together. Something like that.
I'm a bit undecided about this episode.
Stuff that I liked:
Stuff that I didn't like:
how can a society or any sort of structure be maintained if you canāt remember anything? The whole premise felt a bit off.
The rulers in the palace could remember, though (because of the shielding provided by some metal). And the workers/slaves remembered enough to perform their tasks.
@exscape @ValueSubtracted @UESPA_Sputnik Spoiler alert, please!
This is one of the earliest Sci-Fi themes. See: Nightfall by Asimov (1941).
I thought they covered it well in the ep. (Write things down, write things on YOURSELF, etc).
Hm, considering your instance name, are you reading this on Mastodon? I've not gotten the hang of how federation with Mastodon works, but I'm reading/writing this on Kbin, and the post is on Lemmy, in the discussion thread for the latest episode, where spoilers for that episode are assumed to exist without warning.
In any case I apologize if you were spoiled by my post, but I'm not sure how to improve things in the future TBH.
@exscape @ValueSubtracted @UESPA_Sputnik Yes, I'm reading on Mastodon. Interesting, I may have to stop following the lemmy hashtag. Federation is a fun idea but apparently doesn't work quite right.
Just among the āfield Kalarā, how are there relationships enough to maintain a population? Unless theyāre just used to reading a piece of paper āthis is my spouse, this is my childā and I guess the deep emotions they talked about as persisting fill in the rest. Still, I think it would be hard to build the relationships without those deep emotions in place. Sorta sounds like ā50 First Dateā (never saw it but the premise).
I like the Pike/Batel relationship dynamic. I like that they're both captains with their own responsibilities, which is new and different from what we've seen in previous iterations of Trek where one is an officer and the other is left at home or something. It doesn't feel forced to me, although the question of weren't they just FWB's is an interesting one, I'd have to go back and look at the pilot. But I'm ok with buying that they're closer than that but just can't make it work because they both have ships to captain.
I would like to see more of her being a captain. Hopefully there's an episode in the future where we get to see her on her bridge doing her thing.
I'm also in the camp that liked it, Pike since his reintroduction in Disco S2 has been one of the franchises' most emotionally open captains. Most of the time we see this as this self-assured dad energy he uses when talking to his subordinates, but I think it was good to see how he can be vulnerable but still that genuine, emotionally mature guy with someone who's on the same level as him.
I mean, we had Ben Sisko and Kassidy Yates who both were captains. But I agree with you that Pike and Batel really seem to be equals, and I really like that relationship dynamic.
As I said, from the pilot episode I got the impression that they are friends with benefits who like to hook up when they happen to be in the same sector ā no strings attached. (underlined by the fact that Pike had a fling with that lady from the child-killing planet) I think that could be an interesting relationship dynamic to explore because unlike Kirk who had a chick on every planet (with rather unequal dynamics), Pike and Batel both have found someone equal with all the limitations that the jobs brings with it.
I just hope the writing for Batel was an exception in this week's episode because it didn't make her look good ā being overly emotional and storming off after Pike just stated some facts. I don't think that's the type of female character they should be aiming for nowadays.
Only the workers outside the castle lost their memories. The guards had helmets made of a material that protected them from the worst effects, and the palace shielded those inside.
The end result is a caste system, where you have people who remember and give orders and people who forget and have no choice but to follow.
š
Isn't Spock usually the one to be immune? But he was affected to, so was Una. It's likely that Hemmer would have been affected as well (for plot reasons anyway).
@UESPA_Sputnik
Sounds like Troi's telepathic abilities always being mysteriously blocked when the story demands it.
I've only managed to see this episode once, but something I didn't understand was Spock's decision to try and hide in the debris field. At this point they believed the planet was the source of the problem, but it seemed mostly a guess that the debris field might shield them.
Wouldn't the most logical action have been to get as far away from the planet as reasonably possible until the effects appeared to subside? I know Una made a point that they had crew down there, but it's not as if they can't return more cautiously and with a clearer understanding of what's happening. You're also helpless to help your landing party if you're completely incapacitated yourself.
Have I missed something important?
My headcanon is that the radiation had already begun affecting his decision-making.
It's a stretch, I know.
I donāt think itās a bad headcanon.
We do know that the first landing went wildly wrong quickly. Itās possible that the judgement and short term memories of Pike and Spock of that landing were affected by more than trauma and shock.
There was individual variation in how rapidly the effects presented. We saw that Laāan experienced some early tinnitus shortly after the shuttle landed.
On the ship, Spock wasnāt necessarily correct in his inference given he was already experiencing some cognitive impairment by that point.
I kept yelling at my TV. Leave orbit! Get out and regroup!
I think it's not just because Una pointed out there was crew down there but specifically told Spock they had to (should) stay close. He took it literally as a command whereas he really should have evaluated it for himself.
Outside of Pike and Batel's relationship, are there any points in this episode that look to connect to anything else in the currently ongoing plotline in SNW? I didn't really notice anything, it seems like this might be the most standalone episode.
Batelās promotion was nixed by Judge Advocate Pasalk because of her conduct during Unaās trial in āAd Astra Per Asperaā.
MāBenga mentions that the reason he and LaāAn were along was because Pike needed people who could fight without phasers (as per āThe Broken Circleā and āTomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrowā).
Thatās basically it, I think.
I don't know if we'll ever see a full episode with flashbacks to everything he's been through, but oddly enough I don't mind the intentionally vague references to it so far--leaves it open for our imaginations (and fan fiction) to fill in the gaps.
Enjoyed this very much, the tone was very creepy. Reminded me of the psychological horror episodes only TNG really did.
I would link it back to psychological mystery of The Cage and further to its touchstone, the MGM 50s classic Forbidden Planet.
Yes, itās a direct plot reference to the backstory for The Cage.
I was responding to the comment that itās like TNG psychological episodes, when I see it as in the tradition of Forbidden Planet where an unknown technology or phenomenon is changing brain function so that subconscious or deep behaviours are revealed. #
A very TOS episode that I thoroughly enjoyed!
Can we let La'an have a few happy moments in this season? That woman must be riddled with PTSD by now.
It was great to finally get Pike back! Has he ever told his girlfriend that he's almost certainly going to be disabled? What a pickle he's in. I think if I were in his shoes I would have let the relationship end. The guilt must be driving him insane.
I feel like they might be messing around with the timelines so that they can save Pike from his horrendous fate and just say it's an alternate timeline compared to TOS. Normally I'd be against that, but it's Pike and I love him so much that I almost want them to do it.
The nature of a time crystal is that itās a fixed event in every timeline forward.
Once Pike drew the crystal on Borath, it was locked in.
Thanks, I should know that, I've seen every episode!
In a kind of sad way he does have a happy ending. I just don't want it to happen to him. Poor old Pike!
I don't understand that dude, needling the dude with no memory who was beating on him, then acting all surprised when that same dude puts a gun on him. Like, what was he trying to do? It seemed like he was trying to get Pike to kill him, but then he wasn't. Wtf?
The way I read the scene was that he was so high off his power that he thought with the tables turned and Pike having no power that he would have the upper hand. But Pike managed to subdue him and High Lord Zacarias was all of a sudden staring down the barrel of a phaser rifle and all of a sudden wasn't so confident that the Pike he knew, who would lower the weapon once the combatant was subdued, was still there. I think the sudden switch was just an "OH shit, what have I done?" moment.
@Tired8281 @crazycanadianloon yeh thatās my interpretation. For a moment it looks like Pike has not recovered enough to remember he shouldnāt kill someone when he has the upper hand. Zac suddenly changes demeanor when he realises Pike might not show any mercy.
OK, can someone help me out? I had major deja-vu with the scene where Spock tells Ortegas she can't go on the field trip away mission. Wasn't there another episode where Ortegas was about to get to go on an away mission and got told she couldn't at the last minute? Or did I maybe see that scene in a preview or something?
That scene was shown at one of the major conventions last year, so you may have seen it then.
I have loved SNW from the get go but I think its great that to me at least every episode has been great. I don't think I have felt meh or bummed out by any singular one so far. Comparing to TNG and DS9 who had quite a few meh episodes. That is great imo
She was in command of the Cayuga in "A Quality of Mercy" as well - it seems that's her regular gig, and she was assigned Una's prosecution because...well, that's how Starfleet rolls, I guess.
I think she was asked by starfleet since she was close, then asked to do jag duty (?!) As a test of her fitness for higher command, which she should have passed.
Everyone knows that ship captains are the best lawyers. Thatās why starfleet keeps using them as attorneys in all their trials
Maybe the Cayuga performs a support mission? It can do standard starship stuff but also specializes in social work, like diplomacy, legal services, law enforcement, politics, etc
Even if that were the case and the Cayuga is a flying legal-aid clinic it doesnāt make much sense to put the lawyer in charge. Youād have a regular command officer trained to fly spaceships running the ship, and Batel would be like the chief counsel or whatever aboard. But they also did it weird with Crusher too when they made her the captain of a hospital ship. Again, youād have a ship-captain-type-person flying the thing, and a doctor in charge of the doctoring
It's bugged me a little in previous episodes, but in this episode it really bugged me that the entire medical staff seems to be M'Benga and Chapel - I know it's normal for Trek for the staffs to appear small but normally either it's been a plot point (Voy), others mentioned if not seen (DS9) or that we occasionally see them (TNG, DIS, TOS). It'd be nice just to see a few others about.
We saw several more staff in sickbay in season one, especially in the episode with the contagion from the former Illyrian colony.
I found it very odd that Chapel was on her own with no other medical technicians or paramedics in this episode.
@StillPaisleyCat @Calanon She's a modern O'Brien, then. Always in the wrong place at the wrong time without backup. :)
Reed Birney's acting is great. His soft voice is very touching.
ā Be in the moment with me.
ā We look out for each other. Every night we have our forgetting.
ā You are guided by your emotions. They are your truth. I find them convincing. The totem teaches that we live in each moment, embrace them.
Did anyone else just despise the noise though, loved the episode but for me that noise will make the episode un-rewatchable..
@ValueSubtracted second best episode of S2 so far, after Ad Astra Per Aspera. The type of setup has already been done many times but there are enough new ideas to keep it interesting. The old man is a great single-episode character.
Who voiced the computer? It sounds like Kate Mulgrew
listed as Alex Kapp https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0395088/
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r/startrek: The Next Generation
Star Trek news and discussion. No slash fic...
Maybe a little slash fic.
Rules
All posts/comments must be thoughtful and balanced.
It is important that everyone from newbies to OG Trekkers feel welcome, no matter their gender, sexual orientation, religion or race.
All posts/comments must be factually accurate and verifiable. We are not a place for gossip, rumors, or manipulative or misleading content.
If a polite way cannot be found to phrase what it is you want to say, don't say anything at all. Insulting or disparaging remarks about any human being are expressly not allowed.
Utilize the spoiler system for any and all spoilers relating to the most recently-aired episode. There is no formal spoiler protection for episodes/films after they have been available for approximately one week.
All submissions must be directly about the Star Trek franchise (the shows, movies, books, etc.). Off-topic discussions are welcome at c/Quarks.
Questions and concerns about moderator actions should be brought forward via DM.
Upcoming Episodes
| Date | Episode | Title |
|---|---|---|
| 09-03 | SNW 4x07 | āLike Chronitons Through the Hourglassā |
| 09-10 | SNW 4x08 | āOrders of Magnitudeā |
| 09-17 | SNW 4x09 | "Once LaāAn a Time" |
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Nothing to add pertaining to this last FANTASTIC episode; I really just wanted to say I appreciate everyone posting here. After Reddit, I thought these kind of threads were done for, but here we are. So even if no one reads this, thank you and much love š
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