That post seems to be missing.

leftzero 91 points 3 years ago

Sir Terry Pratchett said, regarding fantasy:

“J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.”

I think pretty much the same can be said for Herbert (and before him Asimov) when it comes to science-fiction...

(Reading the article, though, it seems Herbert might have been a bit more of an arse about other authors being influenced by him than Tolkien or Asimov ever were...)

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TheRealKuni 21 points 3 years ago

GNU Terry Pratchett

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Dagwood222 10 points 3 years ago

I was never a giant fan of the Lensmen books, but there's a lot of Doc Smith's story in Star Wars.

A multi species police force with telepathic powers and a symbol known and respected on all worlds?

For the uninitiated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series

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MonkderZweite 2 points 3 years ago

We are standing on the shoulders of giants.

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jordanlund 55 points 3 years ago

Stop me if you heard this one...

A youthful squire, with the aid of a knight errant, his trusty steed, and a powerful wizard, go to rescue the beautiful princess from the evil Black Knight and his fire breathing dragon.

Both Lucas and Herbert were plugged into fundamental cultural mythology:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

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VindictiveJudge 26 points 3 years ago

And they did that very differently. Lucas played the archetypes straight while Herbert deconstructed them.

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Toribor 21 points 3 years ago

I was just talking about this, about how Paul is not a typical hero. Sure he's the 'chosen one of prophecy', but only because of generations of genetic manipulation to create someone with his abilities and centuries of spreading superstition and prophecies. Even then his actions are only sort of heroic in that he helps free the Fremen but thus drives them into a holy war against the entire empire.

It's a really cool way of leaning on existing tropes in a self-aware way.

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Fungah 9 points 3 years ago

Paul also bailed before things ran their course, leaving Leto to become supreme jabbs of the universe. He chose what he thought was the lesser ofany evils and was still stacked by the guilt from the choice. Not very common for heroes to just bail on their destiny.

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DragonTypeWyvern 8 points 3 years ago

It's important to note that Dune was published in 1965, Star Wars premiered in 1977, and The Hero With a Thousand Faces was published in 1949 but the Hero's Journey took a while to become a well known concept.

Lucas has an interview where he talks about going to a lecture by Campbell on the Journey as part of his college studies, while Campbell was observing these common tropes have existed as long as storytelling the idea of this formula existing was still relatively new.

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dumpsterlid 3 points 3 years ago

I am so fucking tired of people acting like the Hero’s Journey actually says something important about stories or that Campbell isn’t a complete hack.

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SpaceCowboy 10 points 3 years ago

Yes the common trope of a desert planet with a powerful worm-like guy that has a face and arms having spice orgies in a palace. That's just a common trope that exists... well just in Return of the Jedi and in God Emperor of Dune which was coincidentally published just around the time RotJ was being written.

And the old saw of someone having a vision of their lover dying during childbirth, trying to prevent it, getting an offer by an evil cloner dude to bring her back to life, and it ends up happening anyway, and surprise... it's twins! That kind of stuff is all over mythology, right?

Hey I love Star Wars too, but come on, Lucas burrowed very heavily from Dune.

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Blue_Morpho 12 points 3 years ago

Herbert admitted he ripped off Lawrence of Arabia so throwing stone in glass houses.

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okamiueru 50 points 3 years ago

Why did he think that? Also, why have no one mentioned Valérian and Laureline? It is much easier to argue was more than just a little inspiration?

The comic was published in 1967, ten years before star wars.

https://www.ign.com/...

I remember seeing more side by side comparison somewhere, and the list of passing coincidences was very long. I think it was this one

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leftzero 9 points 3 years ago

I did mention Valérian!

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okamiueru 6 points 3 years ago

Indeed you did! Apologies.

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MadMadBunny 3 points 3 years ago

Thank you for mentioning Valerian et Laureline!

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MonkderZweite 1 point 3 years ago

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ooli 43 points 3 years ago

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5ibelius9insterberg 20 points 3 years ago

The book it pretended to be from is the short story "Story of your life" by Ted Chiang which seems to be a bit different from "Try to remember":

Aliens arrive
Woman learns their language and it completely changes her perception of time which makes her tell her daughter her(the daughter's) whole life's story on the day of her birth (Hence the title)
Aliens leave at some point and nobody knows why

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Your_Life

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ooli 7 points 3 years ago

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jordanlund 4 points 3 years ago

Deathworld by Harry Harrison pre-dates all that:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathworld

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ooli 1 point 3 years ago

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reddig33 23 points 3 years ago

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niktemadur 14 points 3 years ago

Those three elements were taken from Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress. There weren't robots, but there were two characters who serve the same function, often as comic relief in the background, but also coming through in some heroic way when it counts.

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sylphrin 13 points 3 years ago

I don't think it's a rip-off either, but the Dune franchise does actually involve some princesses and robots

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hitmyspot 20 points 3 years ago

Yes, but not a damsel in distress. A trope that has a name from the other stories.

Star wars uses old tropes. Dune uses old tropes. The key is they both did it on ways that tell a story that lots of people found interesting or entertaining.

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reddig33 13 points 3 years ago

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jdnewmil 5 points 3 years ago

Well, the Butlerian Jihad was a big influence obviously, and later in the series they end up fighting some leftover AIs from that era. But yeah, a very different take on robots between the two

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reddig33 6 points 3 years ago

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Jakdracula 21 points 3 years ago

It’s not, it’s a rip off of Lord of the Rings.

Also, Harry Potter is a rip off of Star Wars, which is a rip off of Lord of the Rings.

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leftzero 13 points 3 years ago

It’s not, it’s a rip off of Lord of the Rings.

Wasn't it a rip-off of Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress..?

(And the ship designs from Christin & Mézières' Valérian: Spatio-Temporal Agent.)

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Jakdracula 11 points 3 years ago

Lucas even says he copied lotr.

Lucas has often cited The Lord of the Rings as a major influence on Star Wars.

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Soggy 6 points 3 years ago

Ths Lord of the Rings is a major influence on damn near every piece of fantasy written since it was published.

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Jakdracula 5 points 3 years ago

Especially with Star Wars _

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wjrii 19 points 3 years ago

Galaxy spanning empire with unseen emperor.
Spice as a valuable commodity
Desert planet to include skeleton of wormlike creature and suited inhabitants
Secretive sect of religious warriors with magical powers
Chosen one narrative with a dead dad

Now that said, almost every one of these is sort of set dressing and skin deep, and changed drastically in some fundamental way. Lucas was also not exploring remotely the same thematic ground as Herbert. He owes some of the world building to ideas lifted from Dune, without a doubt, but also to Lensman and Flash Gordon and John Carter of Mars. He owes plot and structure to Kurosawa ad Sergio Leone, and themes to Joseph Campbell and three thousand years of adventure tales, fairy tales, and coming of age stories. the only thing "original" about Star Wars is the integration of so many disparate influences into a coherent whole. You could argue that Dune was exploring more sophisticated themes and had a more actionable morality, but Herbert was flattering himself that Star Wars was a "ripoff." The influences were obvious, but they were just one hopper of grist for the Lucas mill.

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Blue_Morpho 1 point 3 years ago

Desert planet to include skeleton of wormlike creature

It clearly had a skull and looked like a reptile. It could have been a gorilla skeleton and people would try to tie it to Dune.

Secretive sect of religious warriors with magical powers

Fremen had no magical powers.

Chosen one narrative with a dead dad

Luke stumbles into adventure in Ep4. He's only reinvented into the chosen one later. Paul was the Duke's son and was a target of the Harkonen/Emperor from the start. It was a major plot point that Paul became the Duke at the death of his noble father. Luke didn't strive to become his father and scheme his way into becoming Emperor.

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wjrii 1 point 3 years ago

almost every one of these is sort of set dressing and skin deep, and changed drastically in some fundamental way.

I think we're on the same team here, but it would be silly not to view Dune as one inspiration among many. I think Herbert was a being a needlessly salty MFer though. For the second point, I was thinking more the Bene Gesserit than the Fremen, and while "warriors" is maybe stretching things a bit, you wouldn't want to get on the bad side of a reverend mother.

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fidodo 1 point 3 years ago

What's the spice supposed to be in star wars?

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wjrii 2 points 3 years ago

It's only a throwaway reference in the original movie, but ultimately, as is the way with Star Wars, the lore was expanded and it was declared to be a sort of general purpose narcotic, possibly mildly involving telepathy, suitable mostly for inspiring organized crime plotlines. It's pretty different from Herbert's spice.

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fidodo 3 points 3 years ago

The greater lore is so vast in sure everything has been referenced, but it's not a significant point in the main story

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frezik 18 points 3 years ago

sigh. Artistic works are often derivative. Even the music of Star Wars takes after Holst's Planets, but it's far from a copy.

The themes of the two go completely different directions. Star Wars is a fairly simple story of good and evil, while Dune dives deeper into politics and personality cults.

Hell, I'll even defend Cameron's Avatar from accusations of being derivative. You might find a list showing how it's exactly like ten other works of fiction. So, why aren't we citing those ten works as being derivative of each other? Yeah, the movie isn't that good beyond spectacle, but even spectacle adds something that those previous works did not have.

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FiskFisk33 6 points 3 years ago

to be fair, the main problem with avatar being a retelling of pocahontas isn't the stealing aspect, but the fact they brought nothing to the table. It just felt stale.

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slingstone 3 points 3 years ago

Are you guys talking about Dances with Smurfs?

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ooli 5 points 3 years ago

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Kolanaki 17 points 3 years ago

Because it had a desert planet with a giant worm for like 10 minutes?

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Blue_Morpho 2 points 3 years ago

It's crazy that Herbert would see a skeleton of a giant reptile in a desert and see it as a worm.

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angrystego 15 points 3 years ago

Storytelling is reimagining the basic archetypal stories over and over again for centuries. It's important to make the stories relevant and new for every generation. There's no point in arguing who came with a motive first.

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echodot 15 points 3 years ago

Star wars was always just a world war II movie rip off.

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darkpanda 17 points 3 years ago

To be fair World War II was kind of a World War I rip off.

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Pons_Aelius 5 points 3 years ago

The battle scenes are a direct ww2 rip off. (Ships in space having dog fights and flying like planes in atmosphere.)

The story takes many elements from Dune.

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lud 4 points 3 years ago

The battle scenes in WW2 are a direct WW1 rip off. (Ships in the ocean fighting and floating like ships in water)

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steeznson 1 point 3 years ago

A lot of the side character archetypes/interactions are stolen from Hidden Fortress too. Like the two drunks becoming the bickering droids.

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jtk 11 points 3 years ago

My son was really into Star Wars when he was a kid but was over it by the time I dragged him to see Dune. On the ride home all he had to say was that it just seemed like a big Star Wars rip off :)

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RizzRustbolt 9 points 3 years ago

Maybe... But at least Star Wars isn't giving the catholic church a blowie.

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Blue_Morpho 8 points 3 years ago

If that's your interpretation, he didn't do a good job of writing.

"He felt that religion was forced down his throat, and his world of Dune was one of the ways he dealt with his childhood."

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Pulptastic 4 points 3 years ago

Wow TIL

https://aleteia.org/...

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PappyWappy 8 points 3 years ago

Some other parallels I haven't seen mentioned could be the revelation that the Baron is Jessica's biological father, Chani dying while giving birth to twins, Alia being Paul's secret sister.

Star Wars being a rip-off is a bit harsh and undeserved but I'd definitely say there was influence from Dune.

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VindictiveJudge 5 points 3 years ago

Luke and Leia being siblings only happened because Lucas scrapped his sequel trilogy idea after Empire and wanted to resolve that plot in Jedi. Them being twins only happened by narrative necessity when writing RotS.

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scytale 7 points 3 years ago

I haven’t gotten to Heretics yet, but that line referencing 3PO is funny.

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Buffalox 1 point 3 years ago

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livus 7 points 3 years ago

I feel bad for him. That's silly.

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newtraditionalists 5 points 3 years ago

He was also a terrible sack of shit. I don't give a fuck what he thought.

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ooli 4 points 3 years ago

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Blue_Morpho 3 points 3 years ago

elaborate?

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c0mbatbag3l 4 points 3 years ago

As if Herbert didn't rip off half his ideas from Heinlein.

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NoSpiritAnimal 3 points 3 years ago

Wow you don't understand Herbert or Heinlein.

If Heinlein wrote Dune, Paul would've been a real savior and also wouldn't have hesitated to use the family atomics by the morning of the night Leto died.

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c0mbatbag3l 4 points 3 years ago

Just because Herbet ripped off Heinlein's ideas doesn't mean he used the same format or character work. You're taking me to mean "Herbert copied Heinlein in every respect" which I didn't say.

Heinlein was writing about meta humans with psychic based abilities for decades before Herbert wrote about the KH in Dune. Clairvoyance and neutron dampening/excitement, eidetic memory, inherent mathematical ability (mentats, anyone?), control over human physiology, twins having quantum mental bonds which work outside of light speed limitations, the ABILITY TO ASTROGATE AND LITERALLY CAUSE MATTER/ANTIMATTER REACTORS TO FUNCTION WITH YOUR MIND.

Pretty much all of Herbert's ideas about human evolution and the people that make society possible without thinking machines were based in Heinlein's prior novels and short stories.

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NoSpiritAnimal 4 points 3 years ago

Heinlein, inventor of the concept of being good at math.

All of those concepts predate Heinlein. You credit him with things Victorians were fantasizing about. The Oracles might take issue with your claims on clairvoyance, and and in some tellings of Ajax, Teucer only shows up to help because he has a premonition of his brother's peril. That's from 500BC.

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DragonTypeWyvern 3 points 3 years ago

I don't think that's entirely fair, because Heinlein didn't invent those ideas either. There's a whole library of pulp sci-fi out there that he stole from, not just one person!

It's honestly why I don't care for Dune, he drops these pseudo-technical terms with no context for a reader because his context was a Flash Gordon or whatever comic he read and he just assumes the reader did too, and if they didn't it was 1965 so every book came with a glossary in the back that said things like Personal Shield: A personal shield

Like, yeah, that's great writing, making the reader stop to look something up in the fuckin glossary that still doesn't explain anything.

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c0mbatbag3l 1 point 3 years ago

Well sure, but that specific focus I believe was pioneered by Heinlein in the same way that when you think of Asimov you think "AI and the three laws of robotics." Along with his obsession with free love meta human abilties were his biggest returning concept.

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Blue_Morpho 2 points 3 years ago

If Heinlein wrote Dune

Then that same argument works for Lucas copying Dune. If Herbert wrote Star Wars, Luke would have taken the title of Duke of the Sith and then negotiated with the Emperor to marry the Emperor's daughter to secure his power.

Lucas's writing was pulp sci-fi with bad dialog fixed by others. But anyone picking out Dune Easter Eggs from StarWars to claim it's a copy of Dune is crazy. Herbert should have reserved his bitterness for the public who picked StarWars over Dune. Herbert was like a classical music composer angry at the Beatles.

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PM_me_trebuchets 3 points 3 years ago

I thought it was a Flash Gordon ripoff?

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