It may be overblown but I am seriously tired of the way Mozilla is being run. The CEO has a $7 million salary. Big red flags always appear each time they increase the salary also. May be a bit hyperbolic but that’s why I’m just using another fork after 20 years
That post seems to be missing.
dicksteele 80 points 2 years ago
Mongostein 21 points 2 years ago
Yup. I’ve been using Firefox for 16 years and I just switched to LibreWolf the other day.
CosmicTurtle0 2 points 2 years ago
I've been using Netscape/Firefox for almost 20+ years. Donated a good chunk of money.
I went to Waterfox
Telorand 17 points 2 years ago
Yeah, and while I don't have any technical qualms about the direction of Mozilla with regard to Firefox, I'm personally switching for peace of mind and because of the aforementioned inability to communicate well. I don't like working with or supporting people that can't just say what they mean. I mean, how hard would it have been to have a human-readable version for stupid people like me and have a legalese version for the lawyers?
Regardless, as people make decisions, they deserve to be informed. It would be stupid to decide to leave Firefox if all you knew was the uninformed outrage of the internet.
dicksteele 10 points 2 years ago
That’s fair. Personally I should have called it quits when they started including pocket in the browser, but better late than never.
rumba 3 points 2 years ago
They're red flag, but even if their stayed purpose is correct at the moment, it sets the stage. All it takes now is a want to sell the data and there's nothing to slow them down or tell us. Nothing to make them keep the setting to not share telemetry. A little baked in ai, some hooks to monitor ...
Jumping ship to a fork is our only recourse. It's that or ride it out and see if the gun is loaded.
Gormadt 62 points 2 years ago
I still recommend it with a little asterisk:
Disable a bunch of shit in it or download a privacy focused fork of it (like Librewolf)
thisismyname 23 points 2 years ago
That asterisk is a problem though, having to go through and make it secure is an issue. What if you miss a setting? What if you misunderstand a setting? None of it is particularly upfront and easy. It doesn't ask you when you first install it to set this stuff up, it encourages you to just get stuck in and start using it straight away.
It's not too complicated for a nerd whose hobby is computers or someone who has studied computers, but for the layperson it's too much.
That's why Librewolf is so good. It's secure by default, with all the settings toggled to privacy and you can ease that off if you wish, for convenience or whatever.
Firefox essentially can't seem to decide if they want to be FOSS or capitalist, that's an issue.
ragebutt 8 points 2 years ago
And based on the behavior of other shitty applications and devices what if an update silently changes one of those settings back to a problematic state? If they aren’t there to begin with I don’t have to worry as much
To be fair Mozilla doesn’t have precedent for this behavior but they also didn’t have precedent for this whole nonsense that started this drama a month ago. Things change
thisismyname 5 points 2 years ago
The problem is not laziness, that's what a nerd whose hobby is computers would do. The average person is not searching for videos to learn how to toggle the settings of their web browser, ffs. Firefox should be secure by default.
Kissaki 0 points 2 years ago
You're talking about security, but really, none of the privacy questions are about technical security of the product.
"What if you miss a setting?" Then they'll give you article recommendations or send your search query to the search engine you're targeting in the first place. They're really a long way from what you can call a security issue, or sharing personal data with random third parties or data brokers.
if they want to be FOSS or capitalist
I really don't see any basis for this take. It's not about picking one of two extremes, and the most extreme niches in those.
They create FOSS, and look for privacy respecting partnerships and investment so they can keep it going.
They added ToS because they're integrating services, like their synced/backed up browser data and other respectful integration.
That's all a long way from malice, or significant problematic behavior. And you still have more choice than on the other biggest alternatives.
I don't think it is the best we could have, I would like it a bit different too, but the way you make it out to be is way overblown if not wrong.
jeena 40 points 2 years ago
I switched to https://librewolf.net/ on Desktop and https://gitlab.com/ironfox-oss/IronFox on Android.
Andromxda 5 points 2 years ago
Using this as an opportunity to promote the LibreWolf community on Lemmy: !librewolf@lemmy.ml as well as their new Mastodon account: @librewolf@chaos.social
I'm not affiliated with them btw
quickenparalysespunk 2 points 2 years ago
I've been trying ironfox but it crashes when i tap "customize homepage"
have you experienced this?
PiratePanPan 7 points 2 years ago
path: 0 15533535 15549134, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 1
erotador 35 points 2 years ago
well Firefox may enshittify, it's still the best option imo, certainly better than chrome or anything chrome based. even better if you use a privacy focused fork like librewolf.
there are other options out there, you can look into qt browsers, those were the basis for webkit browsers. hopefully soon things like servo/verso become more useable.
coldsideofyourpillow 8 points 2 years ago
Servo is an experimental browser engine developed by Mozilla Research using Rust to enhance performance, safety, and parallel processing in modern web rendering. The project showcased features like a concurrent layout system and asynchronous JavaScript execution.
Around 2017, Mozilla shifted focus to other projects and laid off several developers, leading to the gradual abandonment of Servo. However, a dedicated community later formed the Servo 501(c)(3) nonprofit to continue developing Servo’s technology and ideas.
Verso is an experimental browser built on top of the Servo browser engine. Currently, both softwares are experimental and pre-alpha developer software at best.
Kissaki 1 point 2 years ago
IIRC some parts of that project were integrated into Firefox rendering engine. Was it layouting or something?
This included the Quantum project, when portions of Servo were incorporated into the Gecko engine of Firefox.
OsrsNeedsF2P -1 points 2 years ago
The UX of Librewolf sucks ass though. Want to change this setting? Well you can't, too bad.
otto 18 points 2 years ago
A lot of options are disabled for “privacy reasons”. There is no halfway approach. It’s all or nothing with their strict privacy settings.
For some, that’s perfect. For others, who want a more tailored privacy experience, it’s not a really great option.
Ulrich 7 points 2 years ago
It doesn't suck, it's just not intended for casual users, which is why I chuckle when I see it recommended. That and Mullvad browser. I'd pretty much just recommend TOR over those, if you're really going for strict privacy.
For something that strikes a good balance, I use Zen.
EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted 9 points 2 years ago
As @erotador@lemmy.blahaj.zone said, default Firefox is still more private than Chrome. Also, if you want security (and more privacy) on top of that, you should look into LibreWolf. I've been using it for a few years now and it's fantastic!
bizarroland 3 points 2 years ago
I don't know if it is due to some sort of baggage from using the Mozilla Sync service or what, but librewolf without Mozilla Sync is faster for use than Mozilla Firefox is for some reason.
I only swapped over a few days ago, but the speed up was big enough for it to be apparent to me.
clove 0 points 2 years ago
Just not what I've read from security engineers or other sources like GrapheneOS devs. A lot of the flaws on mobile also apply to desktop. Just turns out engineering man power is a huge deal for secure browsers.
skarn 5 points 2 years ago
What you read is true, and also total nonsense.
There is not too much point in discussing privacy and security without a threat model.
So once you put your threat model into focus, you can discuss how to mitigate those threats and pick the right browser for you.
DaPorkchop_ 11 points 2 years ago
A huge chunk of Linux development is subsidized by the hundreds of corporations which depend on it and pay developers to maintain things. There is no corporate interest in developing and/or maintaining an alternative browser engine when chromium already exists and dominates the market.
simpolomeo 33 points 2 years ago
The whole firefox controversy was overblown. Hardened firefox is still the way to go.
LiveLM 32 points 2 years ago
I mean yeah. I'm not a fan of the changes but there's no way in hell anything Chromium based will fare any better... do they even have uBlock still???
Probably turn off the telemetry, try a fork like LibreWolf or maybe the Arkenfox user.js if you'd rather stay close to upstream.
EarlGrey 2 points 2 years ago
I mean Chromium is an open source project, developers don't have to do whatever Google demands.
I know Brave still supports it alongside their own ad-blocker, but apparently the CEO is a dick so people don't want to use it for that reason.
cupcakezealot 29 points 2 years ago
i wasn't as plussed as everyone else over it, though i am concerned. i still donate to mozilla as, ultimately, i believe they're still good for those who champion an ethical, open, and not for profit internet.
i have switched to librefox, though, just because i like their developers and the fact that they've embraced mastodon and the fediverse. i also have firefox and nightly (though i use fennec on android because it comes through f droid)
GnuLinuxDude 22 points 2 years ago
Firefox with like 10 different settings checkboxes unticked through its settings to disable phoning home, prevent sponsored suggestions, prevent recommendations, etc. + ublock origin extension installed, obviously.
It used to be just an install and go ordeal. Now you have to have all these caveats. I used to send technical and interaction to Mozilla but given their terms changes I can’t be confident in them with even that much information anymore.
Final thought is I don’t see what Mozilla’s endgame is. It costs a lot of money to develop a competitive and impactful web browser, I understand that much. Where are they supposed to get their money from? Well. I don’t get paid millions a year to solve this problem, but it seems pretty obvious the current leadership have made their minds up to make Firefox yet another advertisement browser.
Andromxda 0 points 2 years ago
You mean the Email relay? There are great alternatives like SimpleLogin or Addy.io. Both have their own browser extensions, but you can also connect them to Bitwarden and use that for browser integration.
EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted 6 points 2 years ago
I will say as nice as Zen seems (I agree that it's not bad), I don't really like the whole "vertical tabs" shtick. I mean, I can see why some people would like that, but personally I never got into it. It just looks weird to me and I like seeing more of my tab names (weirdly enough that's exactly what a lot of pro-vertical users claim is good about them lol).
Also, from a privacy standpoint, not a huge fan personally of the fact that unlike LibreWolf, Zen Browser doesn't have ResistFingerprinting enabled by default (not sure if it's even in there tbh).
EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted 1 point 2 years ago
Exactly!
quickenparalysespunk 4 points 2 years ago
i agree with wanting see more of tab title. for people who regularly keep 50+ tabs open, that is a pipe dream.
if tabs are so many that their iconized anyway, making the tab bar vertical and iconized isn't much difference.
and if the bar would expand on hover (hopefully in near future), like in Brave (not sure if it's a Chrome feature), then it can be wide enough to see plenty of title without reducing the webpage size most of the time.
EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted 1 point 2 years ago
You know, I've been trying Zen and although I still prefer horizontal to vertical, I can see I was actually somewhat wrong about what I said.
The sidebar is actually expandable (they don't make that clear) and if you do expand it beyond its default, you can actually see more of each tab's titles. It actually helps a lot if you have a shitload of tabs.
If you are like me however and typically try to have only a smaller number of tabs pinned (or consistently open), typically no more than like a third of your screen width at most, then there really is not much of a difference unless you're already used to vertical over horizontal tab bars.
quickenparalysespunk 1 point 2 years ago
I've been trying to keep less tabs open.
it's not easy while test-driving multiple search engines for every search lol
zonnewin 21 points 2 years ago
I would say no. With the recent debacle the writing is on the wall. Mozilla is not taking our privacy seriously. So, I have switched away from vanilla Firefox.
I would recommend using a fork instead: LibreWolf, or Floorp, or Zen; and Ironfox on Android. Mullvad Browser is another option.
Goodtoknow 5 points 2 years ago
Floorp is kinda sketchy these days, it went closed source, then maybe reopen sourced. I would say Zen is the better pick. and on Android Fennec is a great Privacy fork of Firefox.
Eyck_of_denesle 4 points 2 years ago
Not maybe. It is open source. It never went close sourced, Dev made it sourceq available till they figured out the future of the project.
mesamunefire 21 points 2 years ago
Links2 is obviously the best browser. #links2gang
But librewolf is pretty neat.
murmurations 13 points 2 years ago
infinitesunrise 19 points 2 years ago
The browser project dedicated to open web standards steered by a compromised non-profit or the browser project dedicated to undermining the traditional web browsing experience steered by the largest advertising company on Earth ... Let me think ...
veniasilente 14 points 2 years ago
It's incredible unfunny to read people here on Lemmy (or in the Fediverse in general) talk about dropping Firefox for Chrome or a Chromium browser. it's like complaining that your country is going wrong by voting Trump.
venotic 9 points 2 years ago
All that we've ever asked from Mozilla is three things:
Focus on the performance of your browser so that it is not a hog.
Upkeep privacy
Keep it secure
Out of all of those things, Mozilla fails at all except maybe the last thing. We didn't ask for AI implementation. We didn't ask for Firefox accounts. We didn't ask for whatever feature flavor of the month that Mozilla got a hair up their ass about that they just had to throw into the browser. We asked for simple things and Mozilla overshot them. How are any of these features meant to uphold the values once held by Mozilla?
If you want to talk about a nothing-burger, think of all of the reasons that Mozilla had danced around to excuse itself by throwing these things in. And the cherry on top was the Terms of Service. Truly, they are tone-deaf.
Pippipartner 8 points 2 years ago
To be fair nobody asked Mozilla to serve a stupid and detached statement without contextualizing what they meant or try to achieve.
[Edit] it feels like they're asking for the outrage. You can't just drop assurances of not selling data without explaining if your crowd is privacy aware. You can't take broad licenses from your users if you don't explain for what they are for. Having plaintext comment next to the lawyer speak would have fixed all that and none of this had to be this shitty. [/Edit]
Pippipartner 2 points 2 years ago
It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content.
It's still in the current version of the TOS without a direct explanation which can be found anywhere close to it. This is plain bad from a communication stand point.
kevincox 17 points 2 years ago
I still recommend it. I'm not fully happy with the situation but for now I consider it my best option.
- I consider Chromium-based browsers out of the question as they give too much power to Google. This is already showing to be a problem with new APIs and "features" that Google is pushing into the web platform and the bigger the market share gets the more control they have.
- Web browsers are the biggest attack surface that most people have. Displaying untrusted webpages and running untrusted code is incredibly difficult and vulnerabilities are regularly discovered. I don't yet know a Firefox fork that I trust enough to reliably respond to security vulnerabilities quickly and correctly.
So for now I am staying with raw Firefox. Not to mention that as a disto-built Firefox I have some insulation from Mozilla's ToS. But I am very much considering some of the forks, especially the ones that are very light with patches and are mostly configuration tweaks.
giddy 16 points 2 years ago
I am sticking with Firefox but looking at hardening with https://github.com/yokoffing/BetterFox
LoveSausage 14 points 2 years ago
Yea sticking with firefox , but with arkenfox hardening.. bugfixes are more important than fear of some wordings , at least for now. Vanadium in GOS on the phone.
efscher 9 points 2 years ago
I switched to Floorp about a month ago.
Album 8 points 2 years ago
I've been using LW & Mull/IF before the outrage-TOU update and while they're great for me I wouldn't recommend them to everyone. I still keep FF as a backup and many ppl should continue to use FF for the time being as it was JUST A TOU update....for now.
quickenparalysespunk 2 points 2 years ago
this is the most balanced policy.
I'm not sure why it seems no one else is recommending this type of backup-for-rainy-day strategy.
quickenparalysespunk 1 point 2 years ago
vehemently agree!
Hellmo_Luciferrari 1 point 2 years ago
I'd ditch Mull, and go IronFox. It's a fork of Mull that is actively maintained.
Turturtley 7 points 2 years ago
I’ll put my vote in for LibreWolf. Happy to help anyone with a ‘i can’t get librewolf to…’ or ‘this site is broken on librewolf’, etc to help you tweak it.
But i keep both installed. Libre for my daily driver. FF if there’s a site that i absolutely need to be identifiable for.
xye 1 point 2 years ago
I will gladly take you up on this, not sure if it’s possible: trying to get the Toonami Aftermath site to work on librewolf
Turturtley 2 points 2 years ago
Interesting. I'm surprised it works on any browser.
From what I can see, when www.toonamiaftermath.com loads, it gets a guest id from api.toonamiaftermath.com.
www.toonamiaftermath.com has a well configured SSL chain per https://www.scyscan.com/....
However, api.toonamiaftermath.com is missing an intermediary certificate authority per https://www.scyscan.com/.... Note how there's only 1 record in the chain at the bottom of the page. It should resolve all the way upto ISRG Root X1 or X2 per https://letsencrypt.org/certificates/
This is on the server admin to fix up.
If however, you like to live dangerously, you can force LibreWolf to ignore the error (Keep in mind, this is the browser saying "We can't confirm that this server is who they say they are").
In LibreWolf, open the dev tools panel. (Press F12)
Click onto the Network tab.
Then load https://www.toonamiaftermath.com/
In the Network panel, you should see one record in red for https://api.toonamiaftermath.com/ trying to load bundle.js with the error NS_ERROR_ blah blah SEC_ERROR_UNKNOWN_ISSUER.
Double click that record and it'll open a new tab showing you FF's/LibreWolf's "Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead" page.
Click on Advanced, then "Accept the Risk and Continue".
You might see the service response, you might only see the screen flicker.
In any case, reload https://www.toonamiaftermath.com/ and repeat for any subsequent errors. It should challenge for every subdomain/package.
Once done, the site should work for you. You might need to manually click play depending on your other browser settings.
Good luck. You'll need to occasionally re-accept the SSL errors. As mentioned, there's a problem with the trust chain. The site owner likely hasn't set it up correctly, and should be causing it to fail on all browsers. You might have a cached chain somewhere that's allowing it to work on that particular browser.
paequ2 5 points 2 years ago
It's been pretty painless to switch to https://www.waterfox.net/ on desktop. There's also a Waterfox app for Android.
baggachipz 1 point 2 years ago
Orion on MacOS is really good. Great protection and defaults, plus extensions from Firefox and Chrome work.
Mongostein 2 points 2 years ago
Sorry what’s the issue with YIFY?
Mongostein 0 points 2 years ago
I am not a dev and most of that is beyond me. What does that mean to someone who uses their torrents?
weirdo_from_space -4 points 2 years ago
There is no benefit to using Firefox unless you really like uBlock Origin and will not consider another kind of adblocker.
Mozilla is just controlled opposition lead by the same greedy executives as Google anyway, using it won't make a difference. It's at best 3% market share won't stop Google from pushing their crap to everyone else either.
Problems of the modern web in general cannot be solved by just another browser engine. What it really needs is simplification. A way to make it do what it does now but faster and in a way that is easier to implement, but I don't see anyone doing that in the near future.
thanks for using Leebra!
go to feed...
It's mostly overblown. You can watch here or read here. The internet is overreacting again, but Mozilla has done fuck all to grasp why just yoinking understandable language and expecting people to understand legalese and draw lines to their Privacy Policy is making people upset or confused.
Imo, people jumping ship is justified, because a company that makes $37M just on investments should do better about being vocal and prescient champions of privacy. Even if their actual privacy policy is the same as it was a year ago, their failure to communicate with their supporters in a way they can understand should have consequences.
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