Good explanation.
If I remember correctly they defederated from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works because they were two huge and largely unmoderated instances but did say that they'd like to refederate if solid moderation was put in place.
The SIJW admin and them had talks and agreed that they'd refederate when Lemmy would have decent moderation tools that allowed for that, which hasn't happened yet.
If what you're saying is accurate, and these huge communities are largely unmoderated, then we have a pretty outstanding community here on Lemmy. Can you imagine the hate, vitriol, and absolute trash that would be visible if Twitter or Reddit were unmoderated? Yes we have some weird opinions and content, but nothing I've seen is overtly dangerous or hateful. Pretty cool, Lemmy. Pretty cool.
A lot of it is self-selecting IMO. We're big enough to have a good sized community, but we aren't so big as to become a big target. That will change as Lemmy gets bigger, but it least for now, it's small enough that the trolls probably don't get enough attention to bother sticking around.
If you want trash, you can find it on Lemmy, just check the list of most defederated instances. You don't see it because... well, they're defederated, which itself is one of the moderation tools available in the Fediverse.
Because sign ups were totally open during the Reddit Exodus was what started it, it lead to a huge influx of new users that had access to their instance while they run a tight show over there...
I hope we'll get to a place where they'll refederate with us. They have some really interesting communities. I didn't sign up for an account there because I wasn't willing to write a 7 page essay and take the blood oath to be admitted. I'm exaggerating... a little.
They want to be the "Elks Lodge" of the fediverse and that's totally fine. They were pretty transparent about their reasons for defederating with us and their reasons were understandable.
So what, what's wrong about expressing "I don't like this"? How's that different from expressing "I like this"?
The only "toxicity" is that it seems there are downvote trolls, so almost every post automatically gets a downvote immediately. But you can just ignore if you only have that one or two downvotes. If you can't handle that, you can't be surprised if you get called a snowflake.
I upvoted this post even though I don’t agree with it. See the downvoted pic of the girl taking a shit to see why I think downvotes are needed at times.
It is functionally a “I don’t like this” or “I’m right” button.
Sometimes comments are just wrong, and detract from the community. Downvotes (plus an interface that hides negative voted comments) clean things up without need for formal moderation.
Whatever can be said about downvotes (an automated system for marking one's disapproval) is probably true of reporting (a human reviewed system for marking one's extreme disapproval), too.
Nah, we just need to interpret downvotes differently. If we count the votes the right way, it doesn't really matter if we use downvotes to indicate disagreement.
Reddit used to provide a tally of both upvotes and downvotes, rather than just the sum total of the two. The best top-level comments often had hundreds of both upvotes and downvotes, and vibrant discussions always followed. The quality of Reddit conversation dropped precipitously after they combined up and down votes into a sum total. They made it impossible to find the +500/-498 comments among the +4/-2 comments, calling each of them "+2" with a controversial tag, even though one was highly relevant, and the other was almost completely irrelevant.
A "vote" indicates a strong opinion on the subject, and is the more important metric to consider than the specific composition of the votes. Up or down, any vote is saying "check out this opinion".
Well, at the time, they hoped for eventual refederation, too. Personally, I do as well. We’ll see!
I didn't sign up for an account there because I wasn't willing to write a 7 page essay
Yeah, you're not welcome. Everyone calling a couple questions an "essay", can shitpost somewhere else. I'm not exaggerating a bit, if someone can't be bothered to think through a couple answers ONCE, I don't trust them to think through the rest of their comments either.
Except that wasn't how they described it. They said they were getting a lot of posts that required moderator action, and people there said it was trolls and harassment.
A lot of NSFL stuff not tagged, a lot of blatantly transphobic and homophobic stuff meant to upset beehaw users since it's designed to be a diverse and welcoming space. Definitively not "lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works users were posting a lot of low effort memes" and much more "a small subset of lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works users are gaming the open sign ups to make the lives of our users worse"
Exactly - that description was kind of frustrating. It makes it sound like they took a drastic action to deal with a very mild annoyance, when apparently that wasn't the case
I've said before that I think Beehaw's goal of a harassment-free and troll-free space is unlikely to succeed on a federated platform, but I respect their right to give it a shot and their actions seem reasonable given the situation.
The Beehaw admins made this choice, and documented their rationale here: https://beehaw.org/post/567170
Man that is weird. Thank you for the link; I have such mixed feelings.
On the one hand, yes I think it makes a ton of sense to vet your userbase if you want to cultivate a particular sort of discussion (i.e., you want thoughtful comments vs shitposts and memes). OTOH, the response reads like a "For WUSSIES ONLY" want ad. It's the internet dude, toughen up a little. For the same reason, HOLY SHIT how do you have an instance without downvote? You can't curate content on moderation a lone. But then, maybe that's why they are defederated.
It's the internet dude, toughen up a little.
That is such a weird take. People go and create a space deliberately aimed at making people feel more welcome than on the rest of the internet, and you come and shit on it because... Why? Are people not allowed to create and seek out spaces where they're at least semi-protected from the bullshit greeting them everywhere else? Or do you feel entitled to interact with everyone on the internet however you like, regardless of their needs, and are upset to find out that sometimes, you can't?
I'm glad for you that you don't have the need for a place like beehaw, but other people sometimes just want to take a break from all the bullshit, and they have every right to do so, even on the internet.
Can you not smell the irony here?
"Nobody needs to listen to your crass and entitled take on safe spaces; think of their needs! Here is my entitled and intentionally provocative take on YOUR take, fuck your needs stranger."
Fortunately, this is not beehaw so we can have this enlightened exchange of ideas.
There's no irony here, that's exactly how it's supposed to work. My point is not that every space on the internet needs to be as protected as beehaw. My point is that it's valid for people to create and seek out spaces like beehaw if they feel like it, and to be protective of them, which you didn't seem to understand. But of course it's just as valid to not need that and engage in the kind of argument we're having here right now, because different places can have different rules, and that's totally fine, as long as you respect the rules of whatever place you interact with.
It's the internet dude, toughen up a little.
What, can't take getting kicked out of the care bear club, tough guy? Their tiny wussie banhammers too much for you? Go ahead, downvote me, show everyone ALL your power!
(Hi, this is my non-beehaw alt.)
Keep licking the boot!
I don't get it? I'm happy to chat and be called a retard or whatever. Downvotes also fine. I just like to chat / argue/ debate.
I don't care about beehaw specifically. The post here says something like even one negative experience can take a huge amount of effort to undo... Really? Is it all that serious on the internet?
I'm not trying to bait you or be shitty or anything. Why does it matter so much?
Different people take things different ways, some have been taking shit all their life, some are at a breaking point, some are already broken and trying to pick up the pieces.
If you haven't experienced any of that, then congratulations, you're one of the lucky and/or young and/or sociopathic ones. Go out there and have fun! Break a leg, lose a finger, get mauled, set your hair on fire, get drowned, have people you trusted call you names dozens of times a day for a couple decades, get abused, beaten down... and when you've had enough, go on the internet.
Stuff isn't "all that serious on the internet", it gets serious IRL.
After that, some people go on the internet and don't feel like taking even the slightest extra bit of shit, so they don't participate, communities degenerate exponentially, leaving behind only memes and shit flingers, a corpse full of "tough guys" where any serious debate is dead before arrival. Not a problem if you have ads or sell blue checkmarks though!
To avoid that, Beehaw has a single main rule: be nice. Don't know how to chat/argue/debate while being nice to each other? Well, there is your chance to learn, the community will be glad to help if you're serious. Or just hop on and unwind for a while. If you try to stir shit up though, you get shown the door.
Just popping up real fast to say, it's a pleasure seeing screenshots of my site while randomly scrolling through my feed. Thanks for using it!
According to your tool no one has defederated Midwest.Social.
I don't know, I just figured someone would have. I guess we're just a flyover instance.
Site's dead?
Edit: Here's another site that lists blocks...
Site creator here, pleased to announce that it's back on! I fucked up and wrote some code that was very badly optimized, so the sizeable userbase chugged through my free monthly bandwith pretty quickly.
Thanks!
I like your avatar, btw. It would be very appreciated at !noncredibledefense@sh.itjust.works.
The didn't defederate from instances that require approval to join, e.g. Midwest.social
Nah there are some. Very, very few have de-feded from us (most have done so because of buggy federation with lemmy in general), but we've de-feded from a handful of instances, just because they were too spammy.
https://defed.xyz/check/lemm.ee
Looks like you guys have defederated from four instances. Of these I only know burggit and well... I can't say I blame you for that.
To add to what others have said, the reason beehaw defederated is because they have particular rules (eg no downvotes) that they're very strict about to ensure that their instance is the safe space they want it to be. It's not so much that lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works users were acting up against beehaw, just that beehaw expects users to be very well behaved in their instance.
In my experience with beehaw users, they are not well behaved.
Beehaw, behave, beehive; there's some kinda joke there... honey?
I have noticed a trend within myself, similar to out of state plates, that once I notice one rude user from an instance I spend a few days seeing other users from that instance being rude and goings "figures"
never mind I encounter many perfectly pleasant users from that instance
What about infosec.pub?
Its down at the very bottom of this thread sitting at -35 votes and still not removed by a mod. I reported it, but I'm also from a different instance and may or may not have burned a few bridges with the management of this instance on my way out
You can't say "we" on a fediverse system, because the post is gonna be seen by everyone everywhere. I'm not on sh.itjust.works, I'm viewing your post on kbin, and it's also gonna be seen on all the other lemmy servers that are federated with yours.
That's my point exactly. Their title asks "Does anyone know why we’re defederated from beehaw?" but the majority of people reading this post will be on instances that AREN'T defederated with beehaw. The post needs to say "Does anyone know why sh.itjust.works is defederated from beehaw?"
Even so, the image that this post is discussing specifically mentions the sh.itjust.works instance. So even if your app sucks, the linked post gives you all the context you need to understand that this is specifically discussing the sh.itjust.works instance.
That's a problem with the app not with the OP's post.
The majority of people are reading this either from Lemmy's UI, or from some app for Lemmy, both of which clearly show which community+instance this was posted to.
Ask kbin devs to fix their UI and do the same.
There appears to be some miscommunication between instances in this thread regarding how posts appear from other communities. I think many arguments are stemming from this, so to clear things up:
It is trivial for users on sh.itjust.works to see what is posted where. It is less obvious for kbin.social users to do the same. Personally, I think it's a kbin issue for not surfacing enough post information.
That's pretty awful. Can you at least get the instance if you hover over "main"?
That's related, but it should still be pretty clear from context.
If I say, "the current President doesn't represent us," I'm obviously not talking about the whole world, or even the whole country, but the specific subgroup that I'm a part of (i.e. maybe my demographic, political party, etc). If I say, "we need to take responsibility for the state of the planet," I'm talking about everyone in the whole world, not just me and my specific demographic or political party.
It would be a lot clearer if we had better words in English, but it is usually quite clear from context. In this case, this is posted to the sh.itjust.works' "main" community, and the post specifically mentions sh.itjust.works in the image that's linked. It's pretty clear it's talking specifically about the sh.itjust.works instance.
Yup. Im reading this on kbin too, and my initial reaction was “Beehaw is defederated from kbin? When did that happen?!?”
Yeah, really wish people would mention their instance, it's more of a guessing game trying to work out what people they're actually referring to
The short version is because the mods there are very special (in abad way) and like to gatekeep their echochamber as much as possible.
The long one is because they have a vision where their platform is more safe to its users which should be more likeminded individuals and would like to keep it as true and safe as possible acording to their vision, which im not sure what it really is, from what i heard is that they are very left leaning but in an extreme way and dont like discidents, so anyone thats not as likeminded as them is just straight up not welcome then. They probably call disicidents harasers and just ban them. So an echochamber.
Now officially what they said is that everybody but them sucks at moderating and wont refederate untill they dont suck anymore. They say thats because everyone doesnt have sophisticated tools for moderating but i think they just whant everyone to enforce their ideals everywhere else, and if thats the case i believe we are better of without them.
Well i rather be called a wanker and get downvoted to oblivion for commenting unpopular comments than to get straight up banned for it. Thats the type of shit that made me leave reddit instead of keep fighting overly sensitive jannies and nearsighted leadership. It just gets old really fast, and its no way to live.
Your comments so far are uninformed drivel and speculation, which only gets made worse by the fact that the rules of the instance are public for anyone to see. In practice, the mods have too much leniency in many cases, and unlike other communities, allow for actually fixing your behavior (or drunken comments), instead of pulling Reddit shit like banning you for appealing a random suspension.
Well thats why im being speculative about it, since i have not been to behaw myself nor are planning to since from what i read they are heavy on shit i dont like, and bessides because i dont care enough to "better inform myself" on some random niche fediverse instance, im just spewing out what i heard, and i dont like what i heard abbout it and its that they do much censorship, thats why i recomend people to not go there since i would like that people dont have to deal with censorship.
go to feed...
go to feed...
Beehaw mods had issues moderating a flood of new users and low quality posts from here. As they put it, it was more “we don’t have the tools and staff to handle tons of new people” and less “we don’t like SIJW”.
save