Virgin Framework vs Chad ThinkPad
5 months ago by ZILtoid1991 to c/programmer_humor
There IS one of these for everything, eh?
Yep :3
As my biology teacher used to say, "the only intuitive interface is the nipple; everything else is learned".
They'd arguably stopped some time ago. I have a Thinkpad T490s, and a fair chunk of that isn't upgradeable without swapping a fair bit of the body.
The keyboard, for example, is a permanent part of the chassis. Replacing out requires you to swap the entire shell out.
The Ethernet port is some proprietary gubbins, because Lenovo wanted to be funny, and use the same protocols and pinouts as regular Ethernet, but used a special physical connector.
Half the RAM is also permanently soldered into the motherboard as well, so you can't properly upgrade that either.
I got a (very cheap) Thinkpad from my university. It had that proprietary Ethernet port. It came with a ThinkPad-branded USB to Ethernet adapter. The adapter came with the laptop and still didn't use the proprietary port!
Now, there is a chance that the university IT which set stuff up before giving it to me, is responsible for disappearing the proprietary adapter. But because the USB adapter is branded with ThinkPad, I really think it's just what it came with.
Well the newer ones are decent again.
Laptops for consumers have never been good, the reason thinkpads are reliable are because they are sold to businesses (with extensive service warranties)
There are better linux laptops for less. No need to send tour money to the US.
P16 Gen 3 comes closer to that
as a person who uses a framework 16, and deals with returned lease laptops as a job, people are overstating how "durable" thinkpads are.
of course image of course is a joke, but thinkpads advatage isnt necessarily durability, but how cheap replacement parts are because of how many are leased and eventually returned.
frameworks friction is cost and availability, but strength is ease of repair. lenovos is part availability and cost.
As a Framework owner, this meme is absolutely correct.
Not the one you were replying to, but I'm answering you from a Framework 13. It's the best laptop I've owned. It's solid, runs well, is theoretically repairable without having to buy used equipment off ebay, and runs Linux quite well. I've put a few distros on it, and they've all just worked, even the finger print reader.
It's certainly not the best price for performance, but I like the build quality, and it let me bring my own RAM and NVME, which really helped close the price gap.
Thanks! It's interesting to hear folks say that other machines are as powerful and less expensive. The irony is, they're less expensive because they have everything soldered on and designed to be eventual e-waste more quickly.
I wanted a Framework when I was pricing out a new work laptop, but at the time it was going to be months before they'd have what I wanted ready for shipping and I couldn't wait that long. I ended up getting a crazy good deal on a laptop with 64GB of ram. That being said, I still wish I had a Framework compared to this thing.
they're fine. im not throwing out my first get 13" but im also not upgrading it. i'll use it till it dies and replace it like any other laptop*. it turned out to be a perfectly fine device. i knew going in i was spending extra for the chance it'd be my "last laptop" that'd be periodically upgraded. it's definitely fallen short in daily use. decent enough computer that i dont regret having tried it. but i'd stopped suggesting framework to people long before we found out they're a bunch of assholes.
- https://gardinerbryant.com/...
- https://crimier.github.io/posts/Framework-Omarchy/
- https://community.frame.work/...
TL;DR: Framework is sponsoring Omarchy and Hyprland. Omarchy, at least, is really linked to far-righter DHH; cannot find nearly as much about Hyprland on a quick search besides "toxic".
but i'd stopped suggesting framework to people long before we found out they're a bunch of assholes.
Yeah…; I was Hell-bent on a Framework being one of my next laptops and telling everyone about them and then that shit dropped. Massively disappointing.
they are a great example of over engineering just to over engineer. lots of neat ideas that dont serve a purpose in the end. the only personal complaint i have is i dont like the trackpad. they tried to look like an apple trackpad but the button resistance wasnt considered. so its uncomforable to me with extended use. ive also had to replace two dead trackpads.
battery life is average. screen is flimsy but looks nice. lots of things are ok, not bad, just ok. without the hype of being repairable its just another macbook air clone you'd only buy after it goes on sale. if they'd allowed the design to be a little bulkier and used stronger parts instead of gimmicks, it could have been something worth its price.
i do like the aspect ratio and keyboard. the magnetic bezel is a great fidget. getting it without ram and ssd was nice. didnt have to toss the preinstalled ones when i put in 32gb and a 4tb ssd. but its not a 'great' laptop its just a laptop.
not the poster but gen 1 framework 13s has a cmos battery issue that when fully depleted, the laptop will not boot from off state because of how the recharge circuit was wired to the battery.
so if your laptop was in sleep for an extremely extended period of time, you wouldnt be able to turn it on without either replacing the cmos battery or soldering a single wire to fix it.
I have a Framework 16, and love it. However, it's probably the priciest bit of tech I've ever purchased (partially my fault for trying to make it as "future proof" as possible while building it).
Great hardware for Linux too, it's wonderful to never have to worry if your hardware will work or not. Bazzite even has an OS image specifically for Framework hardware.
I was running a little low on space last year so I bought a 1tb expansion drive. Took about 30 seconds to install. Didn't even have to turn the laptop off to do it.
I've had a 12 for a few months now and its a nice low powered, low weight, light use travel machine. Runs pretty nice with kubuntu on it.Generally all around fine though not spectacular a very 5-6/10 machine though that's all I really need from it. Very expensive for what it is though.
My only problems with the Framework 13 are:
- the 3:2 aspect ratio is really nice on the host, but getting VMs to display correctly is hard
- The magnetic bezel is too much fun to play with. I grab at it while thinking, and have broken the plastic from taking it off and on thousands of times
- The interchangeable USB ports don't lock well on the 13. If the HDMI cable is tight, I pull the whole adapter out. (I believe they changed the locking mechanism on the 16)
- The hinges for the display aren't that strong, even the new ones. They're acceptable, but moving the laptop w/ it at certain angles, it will fall open to 180°
It's still my favorite laptop I've owned
Tbh the T470/80 seems to be one of the last real Thiccpad series.
I had one in my backpack and slipped on ice, fell straight on my back. Laptop didnt have any issues
T480 still has dual batteries and is plenty repairable / mod-able, thick / tough enough.
Ok. I had a t495 and that thing is just crap. Nice keyboard but it broke fast
Fair enough.
I have a gripe with the 80 series. The USB c ports aren't easily fixable and the laptop only charges through USB c. (also USB pd handshake blanking the screen on 7th gen Intel models, but that doesn't count).
So for example, my sister fucks up her power dedicated USB C port because shit happens. She's reliant on the last remaining one to keep working. It's not on a seperate daughter board like HP, which has some USB ports and the charger on seperate boards. I can replace that. I can't really microsolder.
Tbh my current work laptop is the same. It's usbc for charging only.
And it's not like there's complicated data lines or anything for the power specific port, it's USB 2 at best.
Valid. In fact the (thunderbolt) power port will self-destruct over a year or two without a firmware update (overheats), Lenovo used to replace 'em for free, not sure what the situation is now. I was lucky and got mine new in box (but at the second hand price) after the bios update was available, but it's something you should look out for when buying second hand. FWIW there's also a power port in the dock connector.
I'm gonna be real, I really dislike the t580. The keyboard is just awful. Again, my sister had 2 of them. One was my dad's old laptop and the other one is the replacement. The keyboard is so meh. Same with the track pad. The cooling solution is really nice. I like the captive screws. But using it is awful. I actually prefer the HP pavilion x360 that I essentially rebuilt twice over the t580.
Do they have a version with the Ctrl key in the lower left corner where it belongs?
on mine you can switch it in the firmware
Pretty sure that's all of them.
classic thinkpad W
Stop ruining ThinkPads for me!!!
Microslop has been patching that out over time though
Going to be an interesting thread to follow as someone who wants a Framework for the repairability. And friends recommending it; and honestly in a world where social media is probably flooded with astroturfed comments instead of real experience, and review sites are ones I highly doubt actually touched or bothered with the products, I am gonna trust word of mouth. But I can be convinced into reconsidering (price, performance I can get out of a laptop, and the Hyperland/Omarchy thing).
my general consideration points for purchasing
General points
- Typing this from a MacBook as someone who likes the look and thinness of it a lot, and appreciates the "boring gray color scheme" because neutrals will always go with my outfit.
- I see the interchangeable ports as a bonus.
- Any of them, including the weakest possible take-home configuration for the 12, would be a performance upgrade over my current Linux laptop (HP laptop I got for around $249ish).
- I particularly like the upgradeable storage.
- Would be buying DIY and loading some Linux distro on it.
Model-specific
- 12 inch would be great for me if it were not for the color accuracy and me wanting to use it to do a bit of digital art that involves color. And Linux not supporting the sheet music reader I like. Or having any sheet music reader at all as far as I am aware—dedicated sheet music readers as opposed to just PDF readers tend to have nice features like letting you jump back to a specific page without needing to go in and edit the whole PDF file, and setting up setlists of sheet music you can quickly and easily flick through. But being able to totally replace my iPad and my current Linux laptop would be so nice. Putting one foot out of the Apple ecosystem for principles and "what if they start making more changes I don't like and I'm stuck," and consolidating two devices into one.
- 13 inch is better on accuracy but loses the stylus support, so no more art, and having a stylus is really helpful on sheet music annotation for me. Would handle my games better too. Although I don't really play things requiring great performance, never play multiplayer requiring high ping or kernel-level anticheat, and I have pretty good tolerance for low frames per second, I do have a feeling 12 inch would fail to handle anything but the most super lightweight games.
- 16 inch is a total nonstarter. Too big. I like portability.
I would highly recommend the Framework 13. I've had it for a bit more than a year now. The only problem I've faced was that the WiFi card was a bit unstable in EndeavourOS. But that was fixed by replacing wpa_supplicant with iwd. (I hear that it was only an issue for the AMD version, and that it's fixed now.) Battery life is fine for me. I limit charging at 70%, and that usually lasts me the whole day.
I love how Linux friendly it is. On my last laptop (an HP), it was pretty much impossible to upgrade the BIOS from inside Linux. Now it's trivial. There's also good support available when you face issues. (Both from Framework, and community members.) The hardware is pretty nice. I actually like how it's MacBook-like, because it just looks nice in most settings. It's portable too, I really hope they don't make it bulkier like some folks here seem to demand.
The problem is that for whatever reason, touch panels (specifically the ones with built in digitizers) always have awful color accuracy. Every single panel that I've looked at to replace the one in my laptop is always like 66% sRGB. Also taking into consideration that it does both MPP and USI styluses, that digitizer is custom.
Edit: it's not a built in digitizer, it's glass. They're sourcing the panel from boe based on the parts image. Theoretically if you knew what you were doing, you could replace the digitizer. I've tried removing the glass from a panel before and it is a nightmare.
Edit 2: there's 3 panels that fit the descriptor of what you want and fit the framework 12 (not accounting for the glass digitizer). They're all discontinued and are like a decade old according to panelook.
Edit 3: I adjusted my search parameters to match the framework 12. It's a 12.2 in panel and according to panelook, all of them barring the discontinued one are 50% ntsc gamut or don't list anything. It's such an odd size that not many display manufacturers have options. Like 6 options, 6 different manufacturers.
Convertible laptops like this just suck in general to shop for. I wanted one with a dgpu and that left me with 3 current gen options, (11th gen Intel when I originally searched), all from Asus, or 7th-8th gen Intel (including the machine I had at the time).
The T14's trackpoint created a pressure spot on my screen simply from being closed. I traveled with it only a handful of times, and when I did, I had it in a light bag with hardly anything else in it. Yes, I need a laptop carry case, but regardless, this really should not be an issue.
I've since put a felt pad between my screen and keyboard for when I close it, but that should not be something I have to do with a $1200 laptop.
Otherwise, it's been great.
I got an upgraded L440, judging from your context, you got a ThinPad, which are not as good as the older ThiccPads, of which the L440 is a part of.
my comment on Linux laptops mentioned in the meme:
for Thinkpads are nice but you have to buy a older/used thinkpad for the reasons why people like it and i want to use AARCH64/ARM64(i still think RISC-V is in its infancy personally) due to its power efficiency
for Framework they dont sell it in my Country
::: spoiler lots of yapping about my idea for laptop(or cyber-deck) if your interested click here am not sure if this the right place to put this info
tbh i would rather make a DIY secondary "Laptop" for Linux
and this is my idea
- the pc itself: Raspberry PI 5 8GB Ram(CPU,Ram,etc is not upgradable though storage is upgradable either via NVME HAT or SD cards though i wish they opted for USBC Video instead of Micro HDMI,while the CPU isnt the fastest its fine for my needs) mainly i love its power efficiency (5v 3a,prob cause of ARM SOC) and it has a WI-FI and Bluetooth chip
- screen: portable raspberry pi 16 inch monitor with usbc power input
- PSU: a powerbank that can output atleast 5V 3A both USB C AND USB A for both screen and the pi itself perferably one that can count how much charge it has (ik 5V and 5A are recommended its harder to find power banks for that)
- Case(optional maybe?): either a toolbox(needs drilling) or pizza box(like that one meme,easy to cut throughq but its not durable or none ig
- keyboard and mouse: either current keyboard/mouse am using on my main pc or a portable keyboard/touchpad(but every portable kb and touchpad i find are bluetooth )
- OS: Armbian Linux(while the pi can run Windows it lacks drivers,i also opted for Armbian because i want Gnome like on my main PC)
Laptop purpose: backup PC/server :::
Last time I checked for the price of a Framework I would be able to buy 2 comparable Slimbooks. I don't know what sense does it make to buy an upgradable laptop if replacing one after couple of years will cost the same. Is it just about reducing e-waste? I still have to do something with old framework parts and I think reusing an old laptop would be easier.
What I'm saying is that if Slimbook costs 1.5k and Framework costs 3k it's still cheaper for me to buy 2 Slimbooks over 10 years than to buy one Framework and use it for 10 years with an upgrade in the middle. What's the benefit of upgrading here?
Things break. More than upgrades, Framework laptops are great for repairability.
Also Framework are American.
I've had a few ThinkPads T14s (AMD gen 1 and also gen 2 - one personal, one for work), and a Framework 16 (personal).
I am much happier now with an HP laptop (zbook ultra g1a) than I ever was with either. Framework build quality and reliability are horrible, and ThinkPads have the absolute worst imaginable displays
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@programming.dev
Welcome to Programmer Humor!
This is a place where you can post jokes, memes, humor, etc. related to programming!
For sharing awful code theres also Programming Horror.
Rules
- Keep content in english
- No advertisements
- Posts must be related to programming or programmer topics
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