Carney’s vision of Canada’s sovereignty is quickly blurring

a month ago by NightOwl to c/canada

Foxer 24 points a month ago

Carney is a man who somehow, and I will never know how, convinced NDP voters the voting for an ex banker capitalist whose job it was to renovict people and hide the wealth of the 1% from taxation in Canada was the absolute best choice for progressives and left-wing voters to rally behind

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GrackleBirb 28 points a month ago

My support for Carney was to keep PP out. Singh did not give me the confidence that he could do that. I still vote NDP at the provincial level (although my riding has been Conservative forever alas) - the federal NDP hasn’t really inspired much confidence but Marit is killing it at the provincial level in Ontario.

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rbos 12 points a month ago

We came very close to a PP government. Too close. I don't like Carney much but Poulivre would have been disastrous. I would rank Singh above both, but my riding was heavily Tory.

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mister_newbie 1 point a month ago

I, too, really like Marit, but let's be honest: she's never winning in this province -- where Bob Rae is still seen as the bogeyman.

A rotten head of cabbage could probably beat Doug these days, provided it's red.

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Gnumile 1 point a month ago

This is a perfect example of why things are very unlikely to change. Too many people have too little faith in things actually changing, so it remains conservatives vs liberals

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mister_newbie 2 points a month ago

It's a perfect example on why FPTP sucks hairy ballsacks. I'd vote NDP, happily, if I knew I could transfer that vote to a non-blue candidate.

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ILikeBoobies 1 point a month ago

Bob Rae not as bad as Harris or Ford but I'll never forgive him for letting public servants keep their job admist a recession .

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Foxer -15 points a month ago

If you genuinely thought a Bloomberg/Brookfield international banker with a history of renovictions and exploitation of slave-like labor whose primary job was to hide the wealth of the 1% was better than Poilievre then I think you need to seriously reconsider your judgments.

The damage being done to the economy currently is going to be generational and the people that will face and feel it the most are going to be the poor and disadvantaged that nDP voters normally care about. With Poilievre you would have gotten some of the same things, such as an oil pipeline, but you would have also gotten a healthy economy that wouldn't been able to pay the needs of the week in the future

Instead an entire generation and probably too are going to grow up with a substandard life quality as a direct result of the liberal rule including Carney's over the last 11 years.

I strongly encourage you to sit back and think about your choices. Watch what happens over the next few years and watch what happens as we attempt to recover for that in the years to follow and watch who suffers.

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healthetank 6 points a month ago

What do you base this 'strong economy' bit on? As far as I can tell, Carneys taken most of PPs playbook out from under him.

What policies did PP propose that would've given us a "healthy economy"?

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Foxer -4 points a month ago

He's announced PP's policies but he never delivered on them. He's pretty good at announcing things people want to hear but he doesn't actually do any of it

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GrackleBirb 4 points a month ago

Yeah no fuck Tiny PP

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karlhungus 14 points a month ago

He didn't, Pete and Trump did.

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Canconda 2 points a month ago

Crazy we have to explain this to non-magats.

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cecilkorik 10 points a month ago

Singh unfortunately didn't help the cause much. But I think it was actually Pollievre who helped Carney with such incredible efficiency. I agree, it makes no sense, but PP's innate reality distortion field was apparently large enough to cause some sort of gravitational lensing around Carney too that made him temporarily look like an anti-Trump.

I also think Carney did particularly well on the military topic, especially compared to previous Liberal positions, which might have genuinely appealed to some NDP voters disillusioned with the NDP's traditionally weak stance on defense, in light of the active military threats against us and our allies.

Personally, I understand where the NDP's defense policy is coming from, and I think it's responsible and probably even the right way to approach it holistically. We don't need to beg Europe to partner with us, even if they're obviously willing to, we have everything we need to develop our own military and industry on our own, but it will take time for those investments to pay off, and I get the desire to shortcut some of that with European assistance. But maybe people thought we wouldn't be able to have socialism and kick Trump and Putin's teeth in at the same time. I don't know.

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Foxer 0 points a month ago

Well it's worth noting that poilievre got almost the same popular vote as carney did. And there's no doubt the Carney had his own trudeomanium moments there in the campaign where people flock to him because they believed in him not because they didn't believe in Poilievre. In fact based on the polling poilievre was gaining ground through most of the election.

None of the polling I saw indicated that defense was a major issue. And it wasn't really brought up a lot during the election, that was more post-election. So while anything is possible I'm not seeing a lot of evidence for that being a major driving force

I don't know that the new NDP is going to be pushing terribly hard for military spending.

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BassetHound 9 points a month ago

I gave up on the NDP after years of mismanagement. I voted for the party of Jack and was alright with Mulcair. But under Jagmeet the party has been run into the ground.

That year where Jagmeet and the NDP propped up the obviously dead Trudeau government was the final straw. Willfully choosing to support a wildly unpopular prime minister to avoid the election was gross and made a mockery of their name. If you want to be taken seriously as a party and a leader, you have to be in it to win. There could have been an opportunity to become the opposition again and maybe replace the Liberals in time. Instead they chose to sacrifice their own party. If they don’t even want to be a serious party, why the hell should I vote for them?

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kbal 4 points a month ago

Why vote NDP? Because even if we concede that all your criticisms of the party are exactly right and unchanged under its new leadership, that still makes them the best of the main parties available to vote for.

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Foxer -2 points a month ago

Well obviously a fair number of NDP voters kind of felt the same. And this is kind of a point that I was bringing up, historically both provincially and federally we have seen conservative supporters utterly destroy their party when their signs of corruption or egregious Behavior. And likewise you can say the same thing about the NDP including the recent destruction of the party.

For some reason you can't say that about liberals. No matter how bad the liberals get they still tend to survive and their voters are reluctant to punish them the same way

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healthetank 2 points a month ago

I'd be curious what historical data you're referencing?

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Foxer -1 points a month ago

Well there are numerous examples of right wing parties or the NDP completely devastating or wiping out their parties in the face of corruption.

Consider the PC government federally after Brian Mulroney left and Kim Campbell disappointed by saying everything was fine and there's no need to change. They went from being in power to being able to hold caucus meetings at a medium-sized booth at Denny's. And then the party was eventually wiped out completely and replaced.

Consider the NDP in British Columbia when they had their scandal of the tail end of the 20th century and we're reduced to two seats as I recall. Likewise the conservative party which was known as the social credit for absolutely bizarre reasons was wiped out after the Vanderzalm Scandals.

There is a willingness for Canadian voters on the right and the farther left to absolutely devastate if not completely destroy their political party if it is perceived that they have done something unethical. The conservatives most of all but the NDP as well

But there is no willingness on the part of the liberal sister they may knock their party out of power but they will never punish them even for severe corruption the way the conservatives and even the NDP will

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TemplaerDude 8 points a month ago

Jagmeet went to our strike line and said he’d take Trudeau down if they forced a deal on us. When they forced a deal on us, Jagmeet was silent. That’s why I didn’t vote for the NDP. Hopefully their new leadership actually stands by their word.

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Foxer -1 points a month ago

And honestly I respect that. Conservatives have destroyed their parties provincially in federally when they perceived that the party had become corrupt or morally bankrupt. And the NDP has done the same and your statement is an expression of that. The willingness to destroy the political party because of bad behavior is an absolute requirement for good democracy

But the liberal supporters do not have that track record. Even when they punish their party it's mild and temporary and most often they don't. And that creates a problem. How long will others watch that before they decide they should behave the same way then the political parties know they can get away with anything

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TemplaerDude 4 points a month ago

You know what killed me is I shook the guys hand and looked in his eyes and I knew he didn’t believe what he had just said. I could tell from the look in his eyes that he said what he said because it was what we wanted to hear. And that hurt because I like Jag and I respect the position the guy was in, unfortunately with the benefit of hindsight we can tell that in the end his decisions tanked the party. I couldn’t vote for the party after that. They needed a change. They got it. I hope it works out.

The liberal party has had the support of the “Always Liberal, forever Liberal, no matter what I’m voting liberal” people who are just as confounding as their conservative counterparts, for entirely different reasons.

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kent_eh 4 points a month ago

The liberal party has had the support of the “Always Liberal, forever Liberal, no matter what I’m voting liberal” people

I see that type of voter more on the conservative side.

I personally know far more people who switch between liberal and NDP depending on the election than I do people who switch from conservative to anything else.

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ZombieCyborgFromOuterSpace 4 points a month ago

💯

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DrivebyHaiku 2 points a month ago

Because literally the Conservative candidate was dramatically worse on progressive policies and there was only the slimmest chance of avoiding that fate. Until we reform voting the whole song and dance of strategic voting will favour the traditional tradeoffs of these two parties. Without vote reform we're more or less doomed to be the frog that boils slow.

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Foxer -2 points a month ago

In what way was the candidate dramatically works on Progressive policies? Jimmy would have fired government workers? Do you mean he would have built more Pipelines and pumped more oil? Or is it that you are worried that he wouldn't have attacked freedom of speech quite as aggressively as the liberals have with their online bills?

There was no threat to Progressive policies with Poilievre. Or at least none that are not threatened already. And the simple fact of the matter is that the more the carney runs our economy and debt into the dirt, the more that Progressive people and poor people will suffer when eventually that has to be corrected and we can't borrow any more money. You may be too young to remember how badly people suffered for the first Trudeau's overspending when that had to be corrected, this time it's going to be in order of magnitude worse and that date will come

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DrivebyHaiku 1 point a month ago

Poilievere ran with a cabinet that had constant issues of candidates calling out support for MAGA-like policies and conduct across the board. He threatened jail time for political rivals, had issues with various perspective MPs talking about their personal stances on repealing abortion protections or saying things regarding indigenous affairs that were racist or in denial of a well documented genocide. He made clear his position as anti-trans which many queer people rightly see as being simply the first domino to fall in the repeal of queer and a whole host of women's rights.

His economic policies were very much out loud every thing that Carney is up to now and perhaps you forgot that. Carney was in effect a traditional conservative politician with a liberal coat of paint. He wasn't talking about vote reform or taxation policies on billionaires. The kind of person you run when you want to shore up Conservative style financial values while basically not actively threatening civil rights issues like your opponents do. He was a traditional Conservative wet dream of basically everything a Whig government wants without the culture war bullshit If you think progressives actually liked Carney at the point of voting him is that's bloody insane. The man's a banker who has been strengthening old colonial ties and wheeling and dealing during a sovereignty crisis where the US, our historical trading partner is softly threatening annexation. The only reasons Conservatives are critical is because they think "Conservative" means "fiscally Conservative" and not the branch of political philosophy of the likes of Edmund Burke that thinks channeling money into the hands of the rich and conserving a social hierarchy that keeps certain people at the bottom and punishing deviance from a social norm, removing safety nets because "families" are easier to control than individuals. Meanwhile "Conservative" government spending has never actually been fiscally conservative historically. They just pump money into whatever makes their friends rich because that's kind of the point. It doesn't matter who is in the seat for government if they don't gave the pretty label that seems to say to them "This guy won't waste money" you can what if any scenario where your guy wouldn't be doing the same or worse. At least Carney had the shame to not say that shit out loud and feels like he needs to court the public instead of getting tacit endorsement for that kind of behavior right out the gate on election day the way Poilevre would of had.

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Foxer -1 points a month ago

What absolute nonsense. Unless you define maga like Policies as being tax breaks and the like there is no comparison between trump's policies and Poilievres. If anything carney was far more trump like, with his build baby build comments and make Canada strong again stuff.

And no, carney is not putting in place PoilievreS economic policies. He said he would, he ran on them, but now he's running away from them. Remember when he promised to deal with interpreneurial trade? Then tried to walk it back when you realized it might be hard? Remember what he said he was going to get rid of the carbon tax but then doubled up the industrial carbon tax and associated fees? He never got rid of the regist legislation that is preventing companies from building pipelines and doing things in Canada, and now he suggesting that the Canadian taxpayer will pay for it just like they did under Justin Trudeau which is the absolute direct opposite of what the conservatives were going for.

Carney's platform was very much like the conservatives but his actual actions are nothing like the conservatives

And carney is absolutely threatening civil rights. Both the left and the right are deeply concerned about his online gestapo bills. The new police powers for search and seizure are deeply worrying. Etc etc

Conservative spending is the opposite of what you're saying. In harper's time for example spending was extremely targeted and did very well and did not flow into the hands of his buddies. Right now we have a scandal where it appears that Brooksfield bought into a company 15 days before carney agreed to give them billions of dollars in bailouts for their condos. Which is exactly what you were just talking about but it's not the conservatives doing it

Poilievre was clear about what his policy was. Get government spending under control and come up with a plan and March towards a balanced budget. Attract business investment to Canada by creating a favorable environment. Keep investment money in Canada by giving a break to those people who invest in Canadian investments instead of moving their money to America which is what has been happening for the last year and change. Focus on correcting the mistakes and problems of the last 10 years and get crime under control

None of those are bad things. You can say what you like but those are all things that even if you feel there are other priorities out there you can't say that those are bad things. And none of that is happening under Carney

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sbv 12 points a month ago

Did anyone expect anything different? He's a child of the 70s and 80s who became a banker and high ranking technocrat. Neoliberalism is his jam.

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AGM 11 points a month ago

Stirring up nationalist sentiments with the idea of an outside threat to make yourself the national champion and having a populace rally behind you with their political support as they huddle under the flag is incredibly powerful in electoral politics, but politics for the public and politics behind closed doors with powerful stakeholders are never the same.

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kent_eh 3 points a month ago

with the idea of an outside threat to make yourself the national champion

That threat isn't one of Carney's (or even Trudeau's) making.

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patatas 0 points a month ago

A threat so menacing that our government is actively taking steps to integrate defence systems more deeply and hand resource extraction rights to them

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humanspiral 9 points a month ago

,,, Carney’s MOU with Alberta calls for Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS), purportedly to ameliorate environmental damage. But this is still a very costly, unproven technology. In Saskatchewan it has only achieved 60 per cent efficiency

Ccs is a scam. Cheaper energy than coal can be achieved 10 months of the year, in canada, with coal plant as backup. Much lower emissions than 60% capture, and bigger negative of ccs is that it costs 10$ per watt. Ballpark of nuclear plants. Solar + batteries is $1 per watt.

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kevincox 6 points a month ago

Yeah, carbon capture doesn't math. I think the saying is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The only reason why it is promoted is because the fossil fuel cartels push it as it moves the blame and focus from them to someone else's problem. Then a bunch of garbage "carbon credit" companies start up and make a lot of noise while doing basically nothing. All the while they can keep pushing for fossil fuel projects because "it's fine, carbon capture will solve it".

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Radical_Socialist_t00t 4 points a month ago

I wish red & blue would just fuse their parties at this point. Only difference left between LPC & CPC at this point is that the CPC is filled with nazis, the differences end there really. Hopefully we get an orange surge wave next election and then eventually, flush capitalism down the toilet.

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UserMail 4 points a month ago

I like the NDP and Greens, but I can't vote for them unless their parties merge. They get very little votes here.

If after they merge, pick up a bunch of votes, implement stratgic voting, they could decide to split again afterwards if they wish.

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rbos 3 points a month ago

In my experience the NDP is willing to burn ecological resources for trivial short term gains. They are a worker party, which is fine, but they often treat 'jobs' as a goal in itself, rather than a route to quality of people's lives.

You can make lots of jobs logging old growth and building out fossil fuel infrastructure.

Edit: don't get me wrong, I'll still vote for them over other options, but my heart and wallet are with the Greens.

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karlhungus 4 points a month ago

I don't get that sense of NDP from Avi Lewis at all.

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rbos 2 points a month ago

Avi Lewis is good people, but institutionally i don't see the NDP prioroizing economic and environmental sustainability. If it comes down to closing mills or saving scraps of old growth forest, or bulking up our renewables, I'm not yet convinced he'd make what i consider the right call. Unpopular sacrifices will need to happen to forestall dosaster.

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karlhungus 3 points a month ago

We can do better, which I believe they would do, with balance. Certainly better than carney or pete.

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Levi 2 points a month ago

Yeah, I really don't want Green and NDP to merge. NDP seem to hate the environment. I'd have nobody left to vote for.

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Canconda 1 point a month ago

The problem is that they only appeal to single issue voters because their candidates are single issue voters. None of these candidates come across as "in it for the people." They come across as idealogues with little consideration for 3/4's of what their job would actually entail.

I would vote for an eco-socialist party, but none exists. Avi seems to be taking the NDP in a better direction, but unless he really steps up his charisma game I don't think he's gonna make middle class folks see the writing on the wall.

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