Please explain why this community (c/europe) is so pro Russia? Genuinely curious as to why.

a month ago by Kenvexity to c/europe

You wouldn't think of a European community of being so insanely pro Russia, yet on every single post mentioning Russia, any negative comments about Russia or their government will get downvoted to hell, some people get banned. I would not be surprised if I am banned or downvoted for posting this. People who are not just blatantly spamming Kremlin propaganda, please say why you are so pro Russia, to someone confused.

Cowbee 41 points a month ago

Lemmy.ml is run by communists, and communists tend to critically support the Russian Federation.

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Kenvexity 10 points a month ago

Yet the Russian Federation isn't communist. Do they still think of it as the Soviet Union? If so, they are incredibly mistaken.

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yogthos 24 points a month ago

It looks like we need to unpack what the phrase critical support actually means. Communists don't look at the Russian Federation and imagine the Soviet Union, nor does nobody think Putin is building socialism. The support is a strategic judgment about the global balance of forces, rooted in a materialist reading of where the primary contradiction lies rather than having anything to do with Russia's internal character.

The primary contradiction in the world is a bloc conflict between Western imperialist states, led by the United States, and the Global South. Western imperialism is the system that enforces economic extraction through debt, sanctions, military bases, trade rules, enabled by dollar's reserve status. It's the force that has strangled development in the Global South and consistently prevented any alternative path of development from gaining traction. As long as that system remains unchallenged there can be no space for experiments in socialism or even genuinely sovereign capitalist development that could later be transformed. That makes breaking Western hegemony a prerequisite for any meaningful change going forward.

Russia currently acts as the main military force directly challenging American led unipolar order. While it's not doing it for communist reasons, their push against NATO expansion and efforts to build alternative financial and trade architectures with BRICS are objectively opening fractures in Western dominance. Russia bogs down NATO in Ukraine and exposes the limits of Western power which, in turn, weakens the imperialist camp creating room for left movements to grow around the world.

So when communists say they critically support Russia, we are not endorsing Russia's internal political system, its capitalist class, nationalist ideology, or its treatment of workers and leftists inside its borders. Our support is conditional and tactical, extending only as far as Russia acts as a counter hegemonic force. The moment Russia pivots toward trying to carve up the world with Western powers or becomes a new oppressor of weaker nations in a way that simply replaces current imperialist hierarchy, that support goes away. Communists are internationalists who see the current moment as one where the central task as weakening the main enemy.

I'll use a historical parallel to help make this all more concrete. Communists critically supported the Allied powers against nazi Germany during the second world war even though the Allies were capitalist imperialists themselves, and just as is the case with Russia today, no one mistook Churchill or Roosevelt for being socialists. The point was that fascism represented the most aggressive and immediate threat to the working class and to the possibility of socialist advance. Today, that threat happens to be Western imperialism with its endless hot wars along with economic warfare against the rest of the world. And the scope of critical support is about actively disrupting Western imperialism.

We live in a world where the US and its vassals can dictate terms to everyone else, and breaking Western hegemony leads to one with more possibilities for mass movements and resource sovereignty creating more room for socialist organizing. Russia's resistance helps crack that door open, and that's why it makes sense to make tactical alignment on one particular axis of struggle while maintaining full independence on all others which is what giving critical support is.

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robear -2 points a month ago

becomes a new oppressor of weaker nations

Unless it's Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine.

In which case, fuck those *flips rolodex* Nazi's.

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yogthos 2 points a month ago

I just love how you trolls keep pretending there are no nazis in Ukraine even as Poland is now having an official row with Ukraine over it. Like no way you can be that detached from reality. You know exactly what you're doing here fash.

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Cowbee 23 points a month ago

No, no communist thinks the RF is the Soviet Union (or RSFSR, which was the specifically Russian part of the USSR). What communists understand is that the Russian Federation is currently strategically aligned against imperialism, and is a strong ally of socialist countries, due to inherited political ties and capitalist encirclement. Communists support a revolution in Russia to overthrow the nationalists and reinstate socialism, but not on western terms.

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Kenvexity 19 points a month ago

So they support it for being anti-western, even though it has little in common with a socialist nation? Just to make it clear

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Cowbee 24 points a month ago

That's an oversimplification, but close-ish to the truth. The Russian Federation is presently anti-imperialist and is helping socialist countries. This is what communists support. Communists do not support the capitalist decay of the Russian Federation, and want a restoration of socialism in Eastern Europe. This is why it is "critical support," same with Iran for example. Socialist countries like China and Cuba are supported with less reservations, hence the distinction between critical and general support.

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davel 23 points a month ago

We’re not anti-Western qua Western. There just happens to be a lot of overlap between the West and imperialism.

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RiverRock 1 point a month ago
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lithiumground -2 points a month ago path: 0 24625597 24659515, hotness: undefined, score: -2, children: 3
Cowbee 7 points a month ago

Lemmy.ml is broadly federated, so anything that suggests Ukraine may not be winning the war is down voted by people from Lemmy.world, etc.

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lithiumground 1 point a month ago

Lemmy.ml is broadly federated, so anything that suggests Ukraine may not be winning the war is down voted by people from Lemmy.world, etc.

that is right. My posts, which show the reality of Ukraine get downvoted. My posts/comments that criticize Russia get upvotes.

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Cowbee 1 point a month ago

There are many Lemmy.ml users critically supportive of Russia. Posting anti-Ukrainian or pro-Russian content on a community on Lemmy.ml gets higher upvotes and fewer down votes/removals than other instances. This is being perceived as being more pro-Russian by OP.

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geneva_convenience 19 points a month ago

When someone posts something and the response is "this is Russian propaganda" instead of addressing it they get downvoted. Or banned if they pair it with insults against users.

There's selective outrage on Russia when the EU and NA are genociding all over the world. You post BBC (British state media) and nobody bats an eye. But you post RT and every Liberal loses their mind.

The reason many people feel weirded out is because these perspectives are banned from Reddit and most other Liberal spaces and therefore people learn to self-censor and to tell others not to talk about it.

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doben 3 points a month ago

Well, as with the latest ruling by the Court of Justice of the European Union on case C-67/25, sharing sanctioned media on open sites like this one, will make you, personally as a user or as an operator of the service, liable before a criminal court. Why? Because it‘s deemed Russian propaganda.

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gandalf_der_12te -3 points a month ago

it's all about the economic situation. large masses of people were wealthy in the US in 1960 and people saw that and said "well, here in the west it works well for us" (somehow without owning the means of production) meanwhile there's just soo many stories about long food-lines and general poverty in the former sovjet union. talk to anyone from romania and they will shout your ears full how much they hate the sovjet union.

so, do you think it's fair that lots of people have a pro-western bias?


i recognize that the US is rapidly enshittifying people's economic situation these days. this is mostly a historical contemplation. the future will be different than the past.

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QinShiHuangsShlong 7 points a month ago

i recognize that the US is rapidly enshittifying people’s economic situation these days

Since it's inception through it's long campaign of perpetrating, funding, and backing colonialism, neocolonialism, and imperialism across the periphery.

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geneva_convenience 6 points a month ago

I've got a story of 500 trucks waiting in line to feed people in a concentration camp but the West blocking them from entering.

Here's a meme from the front page today

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AntiOutsideAktion 17 points a month ago

A lot of time you find yourself defending the truth. Russia is a state enemy of the US-Western hegemony which controls the largest and most expensive propaganda machine that's ever been created.

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davel 15 points a month ago

Previously:

Honest question from a non-communist, based on your reply here. Does one need to support Putin to be a Marxist?

In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.

Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.

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ZeroHora 13 points a month ago

For any people reading this, it's basic but holy shit It's seem too advanced for poor western brain: Communist doesn't need to only support communists and doesn't need to support everything that a communists do, it's not RED vs BLUE for fuck sake, if it's was no communist would support Palestine.

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specimen -3 points a month ago

However, a communist friend of mine did say that aligning with groups that oppose “Western Imperialism” was deliberately part of the the communist party’s strategy, as in, any effort that can undermine it should be supported, overlooking everything else. Hence why you won’t ever see them talk ill publicly of Iran, North Korea, Russia, China, etc.

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geneva_convenience 14 points a month ago

The only reason people withold criticising those countries on some issues is because the West will use that as a pretext to genocide them. It's like discussing "how to improve the Jewish community" during the Holocaust.

Those things can wait until the countries have finally liberated themselves from Western imperialism. Without that they'll never be able to take any serious steps before being moved back to the start.

Coincidentally that's also the reason most Westerners are conditioned to constantly talk ill of those countries. They have to liberate Iraq Afghanistan Syria Libya Iran

An excellent article about this pertaining the Middle-East: Arabs and Muslims: The Real Victims of Modern Antisemitism

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ZeroHora 13 points a month ago

Yes, some communists do support some of that but not because of ideology but for a strategic reason, the part of "overlooking everything else" is completely bullshit.

Hence why you won’t ever see them talk ill publicly of Iran, North Korea, Russia, China, etc.

Press X to doubt.

You won't see communists to that much because liberals already do that endlessly for all the wrong reasons.

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marxismtomorrow 6 points a month ago

That "communist" 'friend' either never heard of critical support, or vastly misunderstands it.

I generally support Russia. And Ukraine. Because the more resources spent on the pointless war the fewer resources can be spent internally in those countries to resist popular revolution.

It's not overlooking the bad that either government does, it is simply supporting them and the actions they perform that happen to align with the wider goal of global revolution.

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frisbird 12 points a month ago

Russia is in a contest with European empire and basically has been for centuries. Napoleon invaded Russia. The Americans invaded Russia. The Germans invaded Russia.

Did they do this because Russia is inherently "bad"? No. They did it to advance European empire. In the case of the Germans and the Americans, they explicitly did it to stop the working class from holding power and directing their own government to develop along the communist path.

Russia became capitalist and liberal and then it tried to join the Western Empire. It really thought it could be part of the club that rules the world so brutally and violently. But the West rebuffed Russia multiple times and then demonstrated that they had not yet given up their goal of subjugating Russia and exploiting it for resources. So Russia took up the position, finally, that the West cannot be trusted and that Russia must prevent the West from ever being able to subjugate it.

In the current contest between Russia and Ukraine, everyone in the political spheres understands this as a proxy war between Russia and the West. US military leaders have said it, NATO leaders have said it. It's not a Russian expansionist project. It's a proxy war, which is how the West has been fighting with Russia for at least 6 decades. This is not a wild claim. It's a historically continuous one.

In a contest between Russia and the West, we want Russia to win. Because the alternative is that the West expands its empire to include the vast territory, resources, and peoples of Russia. This would be very bad for the whole world (except white people in the Empire). The evidence for that is plain to see. What Europe and its colonies have done to the world is beyond the largest evil the world has ever seen.

In the end, we are forced into a brutal calculus - do we support the end of the Western empire or do we support the continuation of the Western empire? If we support the end of the Western empire, we have to acknowledge that we support the Empire's enemies. And if we would rather oppose the Empire's enemies, we have to acknowledge that we therefore support the expansion and maintenance of the empire. There is, unfortunately, no alternative.

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Maxxie 9 points a month ago
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frisbird 9 points a month ago

You can explain why you think it's baffling. I don't think it's pointless

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Maxxie 6 points a month ago
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Majestic 7 points a month ago

Please read Yogthos reply here: https://lemmy.ml/post/49690377/26558932

It basically encapsulates most of the important reasoning.

Why do we support Iran against the US? Objectively Iran is a theocracy that is socially backwards, it oppresses women, it oppresses LGBTQ people, it has a reactionary social character. Why then do we support it? Because it is the lesser evil. And importantly we would support it if it aggressed first against the zionist entity because it's not about aggression or simplistic victim/aggressor dynamics but about liberation for the region and the world. And because Iran exists the way it does today because of western meddling and it cannot move beyond its present character as long as the west is there serving as a foil. Take away that, take away the zionist entity and the aggression and siege situation, allow development and these things have an opportunity to change.

Anyways you use the term "totalitarian" which was itself invented by a Nazi apologist zionist to equate communism to Nazism. But why do you suppose that Russia is this but the west with its vast surveillance nets, its ICE, its camera systems, its global communications intercept network run by the eyes groups with NSA, GCHQ, and its brutal wars with atrocities against civilians across the middle east is not? I mean you can be arrested in Britain for the most trivial of things. You can be sent to prison for saying "I support Palestine Action" while peacefully protesting. How is it that these countries are not also "totalitarian" but Russia is? It cannot be and people only think that way because of propaganda. You have been blinded to the police state and brutality of the west while the brutality of Russia is hyped up, they hide the atrocities and human rights violations of the west and play down the problems while playing up, highlighting every instance and pounding the drums in your ears that scream "this is totalitarianism" to convince you of this fact.

Kleptocracy is also a meaningless term to communists. It's almost like a slur which is selectively applied to the designated "bad guys". All capitalist nations are run under a dictatorship of capital and capitalists to serve their interests. This is true in Russia and it is true in the US. If some places are a little more brazen with their corruption and others a little better at hiding it behind "lobbying" that doesn't change the essential character in our opinion. People starve and sleep on the streets in every major US city while the wealthy sit atop their 12th mansion and party with models and use private jets to private islands. The wealthy do things like rape children and get a slap on the wrist because prison would be bad for them. The wealthy run pedophile networks like Jeffery Epstein and the government buries the evidence and ensures no one is held to account while fabricating lies about what really happened. They crash the economy like in 2008 and the government bails them out while shafting the average person. Does that sound like "kleptocracy"? Because that's the US. Russian capitalist elites are no different, they steal from the people, they live lavishly while others suffer, they commit crimes and use connections to get away with it. It's no different.

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frisbird 5 points a month ago

Russia is no more a kleptocratic police state than any other. The reason your metaphor is "anime villain" is because your understanding is cartoonish. Russia is a real country with a long history and over 140 million people. It has a total all-in police budget of $47B. The USA has ~350M people and an all-in police budget of $237B.

Russia's per capita incarceration rate is significantly lower than the US. Russia recidivism rate is significantly lower than the US.

Essentially on all metrics you could measure a police state, the US is worse than Russia.

But of course, people will argue, just because the US is worse doesn't mean that we can ignore Russia's problems. And we don't. We just understand that in a contest between Russia, who primarily has conflicts at its borders, and the US who primarily has conflicts in the periphery of the world where it does immense harm, we support any and all back pressure against the US even if that means a corrupt and violent state like Russia wins that contest.

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Cowbee 4 points a month ago

How familiar are you with Marxism-Leninism?

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Maxxie 3 points a month ago
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Cowbee 13 points a month ago

The idea of a political vanguard was already present with Marx and Engels. Lenin advanced Marxism to the era of imperialism. Further, characterizing socialist democracy as "a small group of people [with] absolute power" is just not how socialist democracy or vanguards function in reality.

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Fancy_Gecko 6 points a month ago

to over simplify it , Russia is currently fighting the US empire and its cronies through a proxy and maybe directly in the future

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humanspiral 3 points a month ago

Reality has a pro russia bias

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mrdown 2 points a month ago

.ml

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lithiumground -6 points a month ago

Russia is absolutely imperialist, not communist! China is economically imperialist too!

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RiverRock 8 points a month ago

Lol, when you know what words mean

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Cowbee 5 points a month ago

Russia isn't communist, but it isn't imperialist, as it utterly lacks the finance capital required to do so. China is a socialist state with near total public control of finance, doesn't participate in unequal exchange, doesn't participate in neocolonialism, and doesn't imperialize in general. Trade is not imperialism, nor are loans in general.

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reluctant_squidd -18 points a month ago

I don’t think most people know what communism and socialism or capitalism are, nor do they care to learn.

Communism = USSR

Socialism = Capitalism

Capitalism = good because of trickledown, which its nonsense

I really believe it’s that simple.

Edit: elaborated a bit

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Cowbee 11 points a month ago

OP is questioning why the communists are critically supporting the Russian Federation.

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reluctant_squidd -6 points a month ago

I edited my comment to elaborate a bit more, probably while you were typing your response.

Regardless, Communism != Russia. That was my point.

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davel 14 points a month ago

Literally no one is confusing post-Soviet Russia with communism.

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reluctant_squidd -11 points a month ago

Except lemmy.ml apparently.

If they are communists, but support Russia, then they either are not actually communists and don’t understand what that term actually means, or they are communists and don’t understand Russia.

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Cowbee 8 points a month ago

The USSR was socialist and run by a communist party. The Russian Federation is capitalist, but critically supported by communists for its anti-imperialist role. That's all it is.

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