That post seems to be missing.
OsrsNeedsF2P 272 points 3 years ago

I've been on Reddit alternatives for the last 5 years. Lemmy is long past the phase the others all failed at, and next time Reddit screws up it'll grow even more.

The largest existential threat for Lemmy at the moment is perpetual funding. The two full-time devs are almost in the poverty line.

If you can donate even a few dollars/month, it's a huge help: https://join-lemmy.org/support

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thorbot 104 points 3 years ago

What's wild to me is this is the first time I have ever heard anything about the financial part of lemmy, I will happily donate

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Nowyn 28 points 3 years ago

There are two types of people you can donate to. Many instances have a way to donate to them to upkeep and upgrade costs. Then you can donate also for development of the project here https://join-lemmy.org/donate

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Corkyskog 14 points 3 years ago

The project devs currently have like 300 bucks a week comitted to them... kind of sad

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nurple 11 points 3 years ago

Looking at the Patreon and LiberaPay linked on the join-lemmy page it's >$600 a week. Still not a lot.

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redballooon 11 points 3 years ago

$300 on liberapay, 1500€ on Patreon and $10 on OpenCollective

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TWeaK 19 points 3 years ago

That's because the financial accounts are also distributed. lemmy.world is separate to lemmy.ml and every other instance, which is also separate to the core development project. Granted, the lemmy.ml admin are the core devs, and there are other users who span across borders, but it's possible for the instance people are faced with (eg lemmy.world) getting all the donations while the core back end development project does not.

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open_world 18 points 3 years ago
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AlmightySnoo 49 points 3 years ago

You can open their donation links and sum the pledged amounts you see there. For full time devs, they are indeed extremely underpaid.

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veroxii 8 points 3 years ago

Don't they get funding from NL.net as well?

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nix 8 points 3 years ago

They were but not anymore iirc

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cosmic_slate 84 points 3 years ago
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ryathal 50 points 3 years ago

A big part of having more substantial discussions is just having more people. 40k is a good number for active shit posting and stupid jokes, it's way to small to have a community about hobbies or even most major metro areas. You need at least 2-3x more people active to at least start to get moderately specialized communities like pro sports. For something really niche, you probably need at least a million MaU.

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cosmic_slate 20 points 3 years ago
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Corkyskog 8 points 3 years ago

I think it's part of the game and growing pains. You want high quality comments? Well you need more users, 75% of which will rarely post anything, 15% will spam low quality comments, and 10% might submit good posts and we'll thought out comments. Those numbers are probably a little inflated, but you just need to frow the base and what we are looking for will eventually be there. There will just be a ton of other nonsense, but that's the good part about upvote/downvotes and different ranking sorting systems.

It will take time, and a lot of people, for a long time will complain that Lemmy is becoming worse, while it slowly gets better.

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PaperTowel 19 points 3 years ago

I totally agree, I've found Lemmy to also be quite boring, my feed consistents of 90% memes and politics. With nearly nothing about my more niche hobbies.

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cwagner 16 points 3 years ago
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imaqtpie 11 points 3 years ago

Specifically, what have I done that you take such issue with? Or if there is another admin you'd like to criticize, go ahead and speak your piece.

I'd hate people to get the wrong idea about Lemmy admins, whom I have found to be largely selfless and altruistic in their actions and motivations.

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cwagner 5 points 3 years ago
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imaqtpie 7 points 3 years ago

Can you provide a link?

As a moderator, one of my duties is to remove comments that are unnecessarily hostile, personal, and/or non-productive. The vast majority of accusations of fascism that I have seen here are unwarranted and needlessly inflammatory.

I don't like the hexbear community at all, but jumping straight to accusations of fascism is counterproductive in the extreme. Hexbear users are guilty of brigading, arguing in bad faith, trolling, racism, advocating for violence, and supporting authoritarian regimes, but its quite simply incorrect to describe them as a far right ultranationalist group.

I removed many comments throughout that fiasco, and the vast majority were from hexbears.

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awwwyissss 2 points 3 years ago

When I joined Lemmy, I was afraid the politics of the creators would be an issue. It turns out, they are amazing at separating that and their development and stewards of Lemmy.

I've found exactly the opposite. I essentially dismissed concerns about Lemmygrad and political extremism, now I've come to see it as the biggest threat to the fediverse.

I use it less and would be embarrassed for others to find out I use it in case they saw Lemmygrad/Hexbear content.

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Spzi 3 points 3 years ago

There should be plenty of instances to choose from which are defederated from both. Would that be a solution for you or others?

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swab148 3 points 3 years ago

Plus instance blocking is coming soon, and some apps already have their own implementation of said feature.

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awwwyissss 0 points 3 years ago

I'm hoping that instance defederation and blocking gets to that point, but as it is it doesn't really work. I have Lemmygrad and Hexbear blocked and I still see them regularly.

There's also a lot of softer propaganda from lemmy.ml, although it doesn't bother me much since I lean "left" anyway.

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cwagner 2 points 3 years ago
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awwwyissss 1 point 3 years ago

Propaganda isn't obvious or or it wouldn't work. It's also generally based on the truth.

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emeralddawn45 0 points 3 years ago

That's okay, I'm sure the lemmygrad and hexbear users are embarrassed to find out you use it too.

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nurple 66 points 3 years ago

Honestly the biggest long term threat to Lemmy is its technology not being able to keep up with its own success. Issues like bad moderation tools, spam, and fractured communities need to be addressed within the software platform itself.

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SchizoDenji 10 points 3 years ago

The model also inherits the biggest potential flaw from reddit, shitty moderators with no means to escalate complaints against their power tripping.

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cosmic_slate 6 points 3 years ago
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SchizoDenji -1 points 3 years ago

I don't care about optics as an end user. I care about my experience. And majority of reddit agrees that the admins and mods suck unless it's a very niche community.

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Blaze 4 points 3 years ago

I feel the opposite. If a community is owned by shitty mods, there is usually an alternative with better moderation

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SchizoDenji 1 point 3 years ago

Sometimes the mods change over the course and the sub grows large enough to not have an alternative. r/soccer is a perfect example.

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Blaze 1 point 3 years ago

I'm talking about Lemmy here, not Reddit

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veroxii 59 points 3 years ago

I don't think there really were 54k MAUs in the first place. It took me a few goes to find the right instance for me. Through some fedi drama I've had to move "home instance" last month. So last month I probably got counted as 2 MAUs.

But this month I've only been using this account.

When lemmy.world was having DDoS issues (are they still?) a lot of people made alts or moved completely and those would all be double counted.

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skankhunt42 7 points 3 years ago

Yeah, I have an account on 4 or 5 other servers but I mainly use this one... So there's ~4 more "inactive" users.

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squiblet 2 points 3 years ago

I haven't seen lemmy.world down recently.

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Phegan 58 points 3 years ago
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And009 4 points 3 years ago

It's all about having a nice community, not the biggest

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Kelsenellenelvial 5 points 3 years ago

The way I see it, the bigger the whole Lemmy community is, the more people can make smaller communities around niche topics. Steady, continuous growth is a good thing. What can be troublesome is rapid/inconsistent growth.

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uis 2 points 3 years ago

Degrowth

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wokehobbit -46 points 3 years ago

So you want an ultra liberal echo chamber? Got it. Just as bad as the far right. Y'all close minded nutjobs.

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tdawg 22 points 3 years ago

In what world is that a logical following of what the other person said?

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20hzservers 11 points 3 years ago

They're still triggered by seeing rhetoric that is even a little critical of capitalism, but we're the sheep..

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retrieval4558 4 points 3 years ago

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DocMcStuffin 49 points 3 years ago

There's going to be ups and downs. I wouldn't be too concerned right now.

I see the bigger problems being community discoverability, not being able to group communities together, and moderation tools.

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Telorand 15 points 3 years ago

This. All of this. It's fine if the goal is to let the active communities bubble to the top organically, but that doesn't mean much if people can't easily find them.

It would be nice if there was a way to load-share communities among the instances or something, kind of like a mesh network.

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Corkyskog 2 points 3 years ago

Have them all in like a tag system. So I can see all subs related to technology, etc.

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Blaze 1 point 3 years ago path: 0 3694927 3695468 3713889, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Kichae 8 points 3 years ago

community discoverability, [...], and moderation tools

Those are big. But so is the lack of smooth interoperability with Mastodon. There's a large population using Mastodon right now that could be participating in threaded discussions here, who are just totally blind to the space, and those that do engage have a super jankey experience.

And on top of that, it's also a super jankey experience on the Lemmy end when Mastodon users engage.

Hopefully things get better on that front once Mastodon has implemented groups.

not being able to group communities together

I honestly see this being a continued expectation to be a bigger issue. Two communities with the same name on different servers could be very different spaces. Giving users the ability to group them together homogenizes them in a way that is likely bad for the ecosystem overall.

Like, it's fine to have federated or merged communities, but I think that power needs to be in mods and/or admins hands, not end users.

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DocMcStuffin 3 points 3 years ago

I honestly see this being a continued expectation to be a bigger issue. Two communities with the same name on different servers could be very different spaces. Giving users the ability to group them together homogenizes them in a way that is likely bad for the ecosystem overall.

I see the issue, but I still see the tradeoff as being worth it. Right now, if I want to browse technology commies I have to click into each one I'm subbed to. This means I'm going to go the to biggest one first, then second biggest, and so forth. This pretty much favors the big commies over the small ones because this is just annoying to the end user. Grouping gives those smaller ones a better chance of appearing in someone's feed thus spreading out activity over a larger part of the lemmy fediverse.

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Kichae 3 points 3 years ago

I guess, but it also puts a lot of pressure on those small ones to be indistinguishable from the big ones, by having people treating them like they're the same place.

I don't think Lemmy scales the same way that Mastodon does. I don't think this topic-based community forum model translates to federation the same way the individual-based microblogging space does. It's a more complex space, with more layers to manage. It's often mod or admin driven, whereas microblogs are entirely about average user behaviour.

I don't think it replicates Reddit the same way that it replicates Twitter. I think the mental model just doesn't fit the tech.

Like, yeah, letting users make personalized community lists is one thing, and I get the appeal, but it ends up functioning very differently in a space where multiple communities can have the same handle, you know? I can lump 5 different gaming subreddits together into a single stream, and be totally and intuitively aware that they're different. They have different names, and they present differently, with different stylings, when you actually click through to a post. Without those signals, though, empowering users to lump communities together only has benefits to smaller communities if those communities are looking to grow for growth's sake.

Mastodon has done a great disservice to its admins and users by trying to mask the federated nature of the fediverse. By trying to sell 'Mastodon' as a space in and of itself. By trying to make the actual website you're using invisible. I don't think we benefit from that in any way. Indeed, I think it's only the platform developers who benefit, by making their product the only thing people really see. But the individual websites that make up these networks of social networks are entities in and of themselves. They're like neighbourhoods, or towns. They have their own infrastructure, their own residents, their own characters, and their own needs. Treating them as interchangeable or invisible, ultimately, I feel, stymies the actual potential of the space.

Because this isn't Reddit. It doesn't work like Reddit. It can't try to be "Reddit, but ____", because it fails at the first word. The way forward is in recognizing that, and trying to figure out what this new space really is.

And one of the things it is is not one space.

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Blaze 1 point 3 years ago

There’s a large population using Mastodon right now that could be participating in threaded discussions here, who are just totally blind to the space, and those that do engage have a super jankey experience.

I sometimes post to Lemmy communities from Firefish, and have Mastodon users replying. The interaction seems okay, there are a few improvements points but not so bad overall.

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mojo 29 points 3 years ago

Lemmy still has a lot of development to go and is missing crucial features for mass adoption. Especially moderation and safety is a huge one. It's also still big enough that we're able to stabilize ourselves and have consistently entertaining content. Sadly not much niche stuff, which also has to do with Lemmy development including an improvement to show lesser active communities in your feed like Reddit does.

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rip_art_bell 4 points 3 years ago

I just want an option to "hide downvoted posts" like reddit had... I'm tired of seeing the instance-stickied announcements hang around forever in my feed

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mojo 6 points 3 years ago

I wish scores were hidden by default. It'd prevent a lot of the band wagoning that is super prevalent on Reddit style sites

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tdawg 5 points 3 years ago

Nah, I like seeing what other people think. It gives me the chance to try out ideas and arguments in a space with low consequences. Downvotes are instant feedback with a low barrier to entry

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figaro 3 points 3 years ago

I've been using Lemmy since June, and... I'm really curious. Has there been any developments since then, in terms of actual platform features? (Not saying anything about the .world server devs, they are fantastic)

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mojo 2 points 3 years ago

Not much lol

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xantoxis 25 points 3 years ago

I don't know why everyone is even assuming there's some specific reason for this. At 54k MAU we had a lot of people trying it out to see if they liked it. Inevitably, lots will not like it. It's still going to be a massive increase over, say, 1 year ago.

Early growth is always spiky.

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figaro 6 points 3 years ago

Correct. If year over year change is negative though, then that might be an issue.

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pulaskiwasright 25 points 3 years ago

I like Lemmy for the communities it has. But the problem is that it doesn’t have the communities that I like most. I liked Reddit most for the hobby communities that aren’t all necessarily programming or gaming related. Lemmy is fantastic for memes and news and programming and gaming. But those are a small portion of what I used Reddit for. And they aren’t even my favorite part. Look at true guitar communities. Or astronomy, or any other hobby. It’s extremely inactive here.

So I found myself using Lemmy a lot. And then I realized that I was only using Lemmy for the things I don’t actually care about and the things I do care about aren’t here.

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PropaGandalf 5 points 3 years ago

That also something I thought about lately. As a moderator of some hobby/interests communities this sticks out even more. But then why isn't anyone posting? I mean in /c/minimalism we have over 1k subscribers but barely any posts or comments on the few posts made. Is it really the platform or is it us?

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pulaskiwasright 7 points 3 years ago

I like helping people and talking about things other people are interested in more than I like raising topics or asking questions. I feel weird about showing off a new thing, but am happy to talk about someone else’s new thing.

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PropaGandalf 2 points 3 years ago

Exactly thats also how I feel oftentimes. I only post things I really find intriguing or really worth to share. And many others probably feel the same. Soaybe it's just the nature of the people here than a problem of the service itself.

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pulaskiwasright 4 points 3 years ago

I’m definitely not saying there’s something wrong with the Lemmy software. But the reality is that most hobbies don’t have active communities here.

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Blaze 2 points 3 years ago

On that one, it's been under my radar for a bit. I'll try to post/comment more, but I also feel like I'm mature with my minimalism approach, so I don't need to question it so much anymore

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PropaGandalf 2 points 3 years ago

Which is also totally OK. I think we have false expectations about what a community has to be. In the end we are the community and the people are still there.

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phoneymouse 3 points 3 years ago
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Suoko 0 points 3 years ago

Thats's true, and it's true for programming related subs too. But I think it's just just a question of time, nothing strictly necessary is missing on this platform and its usability is on pair with commercial competitors. They could try monetize with silly stuff like avatars, money tips to most active users integrating patron and similar payment methods, etc...

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benjhm 20 points 3 years ago

I'm here only a week or so, subscribed to about 100 communities that look interesting, but most have enough good posts yet very little discussion. Yet the top 'world news' and foss/fedi/prog topics get all the attention, it's not balanced. I hope the new 'scaled/best' ranking algorithm will help, if I understand correctly this is ready but not yet released? People should make more effort to find, upvote, comment on smaller communities (note- to find communities I recommend search-lemmy.com - you find more than from own instance).

Regarding Mastodon - as there are many more users there, it could be a gateway to Lemmy (that's how I got here). Now Mastodon 4.2 has better search, if you follow a lemmy community or account from mastodon, it may show up in such search. However Mastodon new search is opt-in for non-hashtag text, so I suppose Lemmy has to specify whether our posts / replies are searchable - anybody know how this works ?

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pacology 18 points 3 years ago

Do we really need more people here? There are no investors to appease or advertisers to swindle.

Unlimited growth should be a metric we should chase over other stuff like engagement on posts, quality of submissions, etc.

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nurple 47 points 3 years ago

Yes. There are innumerable topics and interests that don’t have a robust presence on Lemmy yet because the platform is just too small and niche. Lemmy is great for tech and tech-adjacent stuff but I still wander back to Reddit from time to time for sports, for instance.

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CoderKat 1 point 3 years ago

I still use Reddit to read episode discussions of TV shows and such. Those largely don't exist here, outside of a handful of shows. And probably would struggle to take off even if the threads existed, as they need a lot of people and good SEO.

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krayj 12 points 3 years ago

If you think the only topics of conversation we need are Politics, World News, & Technology, then we don't need more people here.

Personally, I don't like having to keep going back to Reddit for everything else. For other communities to be successful on Lemmy, we need about 2 orders of magnitude more users.

Are you content to have meaningful activity in just a small handful of generic topics? I'm not.

So, yes, we really do need more people here. A LOT more.

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Corgana 9 points 3 years ago

There is an argument to be made that a diversity of perspectives increases overall quality, and a diversity of perspectives is only achievable when growth is beyond a certain point.

That said, Lemmy (the software) just isn't ready for anything approaching Reddit-sized audiences yet, so I think you're absolutely right that growth should only be a goal right now inasmuch as it enables existing communities to flourish.

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1984 -1 points 3 years ago

You won't have diversity of perspectives here... Entire instances are defederating rather than dealing with all the different opinions and the massive burden of moderating it.

But sure, you can still choose to be on some instance that allows all discussions, that's a plus of the technology. But I don't think people want that. They dont want to see what they don't agree with. This is why they downvote things.

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Blamemeta -6 points 3 years ago

Diversity of perspectives? This place is about left wing politics.

It'd be nice to have some good hobby communities, but lemmy doesn't want a diversity of perspectives.

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yildo 6 points 3 years ago

You might not need exponential growth, but you do want a certain critical mass of activity for each of a variety of topics

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hamid 18 points 3 years ago
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herrvogel 12 points 3 years ago

Well I kinda care. Right now lemmy is kinda... boring? The content variety is very limited and the alternatives to the niche communities I enjoy(ed) on reddit are mostly just barren deserts. That's all because of the rather small and relatively homogenous user base. It's a bit too echo chamber-y too.

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hamid -4 points 3 years ago
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herrvogel 3 points 3 years ago

Lemmy is not special in that its actively contributing members are a small minority. The majority are, always have been, and always will be occasional participants at best. All social platforms are like that. That's how reddit works, that's how archlinux forums work, that's how your local open mic poetry club works. I'm not going to apologize to anyone for not posting. I'm not interested.

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Ignacio 12 points 3 years ago

Too many fascists harassing, bullying and arguing in bad faith have this effect too.

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LarryTheMatador 7 points 3 years ago

Thats why my blocklist runneth over. I think of it like playing duck-hunt on ye olde nintendo. Hence I dont see alot of fash on here and when I do its for like 7/10s of a second.

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Lauchs 4 points 3 years ago

I really wish we could share blocklists or something.

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awwwyissss 5 points 3 years ago

I've had a way bigger problem here with extremist communists, but I hate both equally.

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DarkThoughts 2 points 3 years ago

I clash with both but blocking all the Lemmy.ml communities was a good start of filtering a huge chunk of them out. Doesn't help that the mods absolutely do not care there.

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awwwyissss 2 points 3 years ago

I think the mods do care, as in they support the extremist propaganda, but want to maintain lemmy.ml as a more palatable instance to spread softer propaganda.

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DarkThoughts 2 points 3 years ago

If you let people and their comments & threads stay that are downright conspiracy levels of bullshit and insults towards other users then that's not really maintaining a moderate view towards normies.

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CookieJarObserver 9 points 3 years ago
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JokeDeity 8 points 3 years ago
path: 0 3716918, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 7
Companion1666 15 points 3 years ago

Cat's voice

path: 0 3716918 3717863, hotness: undefined, score: 15, children: 1
DarkThoughts 3 points 3 years ago

MIAU

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Pixelle 10 points 3 years ago
path: 0 3716918 3717200, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 3
JokeDeity 2 points 3 years ago
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Stumblinbear 7 points 3 years ago

I just got banned from Reddit for "promoting violence" because I said a meme should die. jfc

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cyberic 4 points 3 years ago

This is my new favorite reddit ban

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rip_art_bell 3 points 3 years ago

monthly active users I would guess

path: 0 3716918 3722305, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
gastationsushi 8 points 3 years ago

This would be bad if lemmy had a board trying to push an IPO.

path: 0 3744103, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 0
1984 8 points 3 years ago

I see mostly memes, maybe that's why its losing interest. I'm on here less now too.

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Blaze 4 points 3 years ago

I just blocked all memes communities. Better content now

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jet 3 points 3 years ago

I blocked all memes except Risa..

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Blaze 2 points 3 years ago

Hey, nice to see you here!

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khalic 7 points 3 years ago
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spaduf 7 points 3 years ago

I think the big question here is still where we land. It could easily be somewhere in the 20-30k range.

path: 0 3694352, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 0
AbouBenAdhem 7 points 3 years ago

The pattern I see in MAU is periodic surges of new users, followed by a leveling-off decay that eventually amounts to about half of the new users.

How does that compare to other platforms?

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dipshit 5 points 3 years ago

very concerning. time to shut the whole thing down.

path: 0 3721635, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0
cupcakezealot 4 points 3 years ago
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Qwertzwertz 1 point 3 years ago

What is non-niche by your definition?

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Wiz 4 points 3 years ago path: 0 3698465, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0
centof 3 points 3 years ago

It kinda makes sense that mastodon (open source twitter) would have less of a drop than lemmy if you factor in Musk's recent twitter changes.

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squiblet 1 point 3 years ago

I read that as it jumped by 25%, 500,000 users.

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centof 0 points 3 years ago

I can't help but wonder if this is partly driven by the increase in using lemmy from a mobile app, which imo can tend to dumb down the content on lemmy.

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Tranus 4 points 3 years ago

" dumb it down"? Isn't the mobile app (s) displaying the same posts as the website(s)?

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centof 2 points 3 years ago

Yes, it shows the same posts, but if I am interacting via a phone without a physical keyboard it is harder to make in depth posts and include things like links to external websites than it is with a phone. Basically a phone user is in general more likely to make shorter replies and interact with memes and short form content more. I guess I am assuming that phone users have a shorter attention spans since it often seems to be the case.

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Comment105 -15 points 3 years ago

Nobody seriously expects Lemmy to last that much longer than Voat and similar "alternatives".

path: 0 3704581, hotness: undefined, score: -15, children: 13
Pixelle 4 points 3 years ago
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The_Mixer_Dude 2 points 3 years ago

Not the guy you are asking but I think I could give some insight. I don't think it's going to "fail" in every regard but it's going to decline significantly and become an echo chamber for the extremeist types that are driving everyone away. After all the more reasonable and normal active types have left the extremists will likely turn on each other over very minute details that don't exactly correlate to their specific world view and it will likely turn into an all out brawl.

That being said Reddit is very likely to pull more stupid anti-user bullshit and send a few more waves of users to Lemmy and spike the numbers some more at which point hopefully has all their mod tools figured out and communities get solved to actually allow for niches to be usable.

The success of Lemmy lies entirely on a perfect timing of Reddit fucking up again before the infighting becomes too bad and people returning to Reddit warn people away from going to lemmy

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squiblet 2 points 3 years ago

Well, that’s not true. The situation is nothing like Voat. Sites that are self-contained without open source software: yes, I expect those to close down within a year or two.

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DarkThoughts 2 points 3 years ago

I do see a severe lack of moderation in the Fediverse though. Everywhere are extremistic views being spewed by far right & far left users and mods don't give a shit, even after reporting those people. Insults stay, conspiracy bullshit stays, pure bigotry stays, the most heinous hate stays, and more importantly those corresponding accounts stay.

It really makes me want to use it less and less. I already blocked Lemmy.ml instances but it's such a widespread issue in many of the largest communities. If you combine that with the already pretty low engagement on those various platforms then I don't really see the point anymore.

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squiblet 2 points 3 years ago

Where are you seeing that? I have seen extremist left views. People wanted to defederate from Lemmygrad and Hexbear over that, plus annoying trollish behavior, and many instances did. There was extremist rightwing BS on exploding heads and rammy, and people wantged to defederate... and did. Other than that, I see people acting polite, reasonable, and debating in complete sentences. I really can't think of any examples I've seen of what you're talking about. I guess I've looked through the modlog and seen some abusive posts... but well, that's been moderated already.

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DarkThoughts 1 point 3 years ago

https://kbin.social/m/modernmisogyny for example, which is basically a TERF community by one user, which I tried to PM to ernest some months ago.
Or here a somewhat recent thread for Starfield which still hasn't been removed: https://kbin.social/...
You can check the user profile for even more garbage too.

There was also a user here on kbin that was constantly trolling. He seemed to have quit a month ago though, or at least stopped commenting.

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thanks for using Leebra!

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