Which European language am I reading

2 years ago by Camus [il/lui] to c/yurop

ShinkanTrain 52 points 2 years ago

Geoguessr players: Look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power

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kate 21 points 2 years ago

as a geoguessr player this is actually very helpful and i sent it to our group chat

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Visstix 7 points 2 years ago

The source is the geoguessr subreddit

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r 24 points 2 years ago

This is awesome! Never occurred to me that you can tell languages (whose writing systems are similar to each other) apart just by analyzing its graphemes while ignoring grammar entirely

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samus12345 22 points 2 years ago

If you say "yes" to everything, you end up with Vepsian. If you say "no" to everything, you end up with Bulgarian.

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calcopiritus 6 points 2 years ago

That's only because of the order they're in though. I wonder which ones is the most yes and most no without order.

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Hugh_Jeggs 22 points 2 years ago

I dunno it's all Greek to me mate

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MagisterSieran 16 points 2 years ago

Ah yes, of course, I am familiar with the endonyms of all these uncommon languages and their (not always unique) associated flags.

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Ephera 4 points 2 years ago

That's like half the fun, trying to figure out what the languages might be, based on the other languages near them and just guessing what those letters might be in English or whatever other languages you know.

But yes, it absolutely is difficult, especially with many regions being demarked, which I've probably never heard of.

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debil 15 points 2 years ago

Nice touch including esperanto.

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tweeks 4 points 2 years ago

I tried learning Esperanto through Duolingo, but was a bit disappointed. It was still a bit inconsistent here and there; I was hoping for a 'perfect' language without exceptions.

Still think it's a great initiative though.

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debil 5 points 2 years ago

Yes, it's not flawless. My personal pet peeve is that there's no clear way to know if a verb is transitive or intransitive. Despite the shortcomings, it's a fun and rewarding language to learn.

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VitaminF 2 points 2 years ago

At least once you know if it's intransitive or not you can make it the opposite by suffix -igi or -iĝi.

It is a neat language, especially with the history it has by now, but as much I as like it I don't think it will ever catch on widely.

And I don't think it's even possible to construct a language that's easy, consistent, and with wide appeal and adoption.

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debil 1 point 2 years ago

Agreed. I think it could've been solved better. Although excessive use of -igi/-iĝi can make the language sound duller, so I guess it's just what it is and that's it at this point.

IMO, Esperanto could be used at schools as a "gateway language" to language learning in general. It's simple and as logical as can be in grammar and syntax. The vocabulary stems mostly from Latin based languages so learning the most common root words help students build up their vortarojn for other languages as well.

That sort of utilitarian approach to E-o, instead of the more traditional, ideological approach could bring it more popularity. But I'm no teacher so this is likely not happening.

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MagisterSieran 2 points 2 years ago

Esperanto also has the hideous ĥ which to my knowledge no other language has, but it’s not very common so it’s usually not something you can identify it by.

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davidagain 2 points 2 years ago

What sound does that make?

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MagisterSieran 2 points 2 years ago

[x], a sound that isn’t in most varieties of English.

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davidagain 2 points 2 years ago

Thank you.

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VitaminF 2 points 2 years ago

Ĥaoso manĝu vin, fiulo! Estas la plej bona litero ĥ!

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MagisterSieran 2 points 2 years ago

Ne ekzistas maniero meti ĉapelon sur h-on, kiu ne malbelas.

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VitaminF 2 points 2 years ago

Oni povus uzi ħ, la konstanto de Planck el fiziko, tio belegas.

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Churbleyimyam 10 points 2 years ago

I don't know who they are but I like Frysk's flag.

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hyves 11 points 2 years ago

Frisia! It's a province of the Netherlands and I think their language is the closest one to English

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1rre 6 points 2 years ago

Closest to Anglic languages (English, Scots & I think some creoles?) in terms of ancestry - I think Danish is actually the closest to English due to the influence of old norse on English though? Or it could just be coincidence in how they evolved?, and part of the Anglo-Frisian family which means it's pretty closely related

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barsoap 5 points 2 years ago

If you like the West Frisian flag wait until you see North Frisia's coat of arms. That's a pot of (red?) grit there, and the motto is "Better dead than slave". Just don't try to conquer them and they're perfectly pleasant to be around with and share a state with, rather cooking grit than looking for trouble. (Not identical to the coat of the district of Nordfriesland, that's quite a bit more territory than North Frisia proper).

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Successful_Try543 3 points 2 years ago

The heart shaped figures you are seeing, actually depict leaves of waterlilies.

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funkless_eck 10 points 2 years ago

gonna coin the English word "milieuwise" - as in "to move towards, or be appropriate for, the current environment" and fuck this chart up.

edit: no need, found the error - on the bottom line you get to English by saying no to "chh" but it appears in hitchhiking, beachhead, witchhood, and, humorously, touchholes.

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Decq 8 points 2 years ago

I feel like 'chh' would only count when pronounced as part of one syllable/sound. Which in all your examples isn't the case. Of course, if someone is not at all familiar with the language they wouldn't be able to make that distinction. So the chart still wouldn't be helpful in that case.

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funkless_eck 2 points 2 years ago

The key point for me is "what am I reading" - where pronunciation doesn't enter into it.

This isn't a guide for spoken, but for written language, so it actually doesn't matter where the phoneme break occurs, only the grapheme

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Successful_Try543 1 point 2 years ago

But doesn't reading differ from seeing by actually processing the letters into syllables and words by an internal voice?

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JohnnyEnzyme -2 points 2 years ago

Seriously.

Now I'm no scholar, but categorising English as part of the Celtic-branch is just ridoinkulous to me. Like-- that might have been true since before the Roman conquest, but Modern English is easily a West-Germanic branch, overlaid with Norman French, starting in 1066.

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Servais 12 points 2 years ago

It's not so much about classification than finding a place to identify it using a suite of yes/no branches based on specific graphems.

German and Dutch are very close languages, but in complete different places in this tree.

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JohnnyEnzyme -4 points 2 years ago

German and Dutch are very close languages, but in complete different places in this tree.

So maybe we could use a better platform for understanding? (hence my original point?)

(Modern German and Dutch are both from the West-Germanic tree, last I checked)

specific graphems

Okay, fine, granted-- but how does that actually help anyone in this day & age learn about these languages?

AS IN-- dude, we don't need to carry a master's degree in order to understand how English formed out of Anglo-Saxon, with Norman French overlaid on top, now do we?

EDIT: Oh rabbits, no, it's ME whose wrong. Whups..

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Eiim 7 points 2 years ago

I still don't think you understand the point of the graphic. It's called "What European language am I reading?", not "how are these European languages related?"

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Servais 4 points 2 years ago

but how does that actually help anyone in this day & age learn about these languages?

As people said in another comment, it can be useful in identifying languages in settings like Geoguessr.

Silly goose.

I appreciate the work you do on your European graphical novel community, and on Reddit to promote Lemmy, so I wasn't expecting this kind of personal attack.

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eran_morad 9 points 2 years ago
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samus12345 1 point 2 years ago
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Ephera 8 points 2 years ago

I enjoy how there's a language called "iron".

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UnbalancedFox 4 points 2 years ago

Its a solid language, but im a bit rusty with it.

Sorry, im leaving.

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barsoap 8 points 2 years ago

Maybe if Low Saxon could finally agree on an orthography we could be in that chart. It's currently split between "Use Dutch orthography", which doesn't work, "use German orthography", which doesn't work, and I guess "use English orthography", which also doesn't work. Technically there should also be a Cyrillic version and who knows with as big as the Diaspora is there's probably a Portuguese version in Brazil.

I vote for this one.

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Successful_Try543 0 points 2 years ago

I'm in. Take my upvote!

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callyral 6 points 2 years ago

what does "b G R v" mean

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barsoap 12 points 2 years ago

"Am I seeing those in what I reading".

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meldrik 6 points 2 years ago

Why is “ø y” a no for Denmark, but a yes for Norway? I’m pretty sure both countries have the same alphabet?

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1rre 16 points 2 years ago

it's not "ø", "y", it's "øy" in combination (as a digraph?)

same as "th" further down not implying the N languages don't have "t" or "h", just that they don't have "th"

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meldrik 4 points 2 years ago

Aha thanks for the explanation.

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Ephera 4 points 2 years ago

The "øy" is written without a space between the letters, which seems to mean that these letters occur together in words (more obvious example: "eau" leads into French).

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wowbagger 4 points 2 years ago

The problem is that we can put words together to form new words. So say I produced a yogurt at a lake(sø) , I could call it søyougurt. It's not a word that would be in a dictionary though, but lots of that kind of words aren't.

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Ephera 2 points 2 years ago

Maybe within one syllable then?

I mean, I'm not looking to defend this diagram, I have no idea if it's correct. And frankly I would be surprised if it is anything more than an approximation, since language is always messy.

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DrBob 5 points 2 years ago

French is a strange one here - they have "w" (double vé in the alphabet) but it's used almost exclusively in loan words. So I'm not certain it's determinative the way it's presented here.

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Servais 16 points 2 years ago

I think that choice is more about "ieuw" as a whole, like "nieuw" in Dutch, not the separate 4 letters (like b G R v at the beginning)

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EarMaster 5 points 2 years ago

I don't get your comment. The "w" isn't used in this graph as a single character.

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DrBob 3 points 2 years ago

The Dutch exclusion makes sense to me. I was reading it as separate letters which made the use of "e" a second time redundant.

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Successful_Try543 1 point 2 years ago
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boredtortoise 5 points 2 years ago

I kinda broke it with å

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Spzi 3 points 2 years ago

As a german, I feel the right side is much more alien to me than the left side (split at "Start here").

Is that circumstancial, or does it reflect some linguistic truth? Like, are the languages on the left one family, and the ones on the right another family, or however linguistic taxonomy would call that?

Maybe it's just that the left side includes all the germanic languages, so that feels more familiar. There are also languages on the left side where I have no clue what or where that might be. But much more so on the right side.

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flying_sheep 7 points 2 years ago

Like yeah, the first split is about having a number of common letters from the Latin alphabet, so the right side is everything else: Cyrillic, Hebrew, …

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LANIK2000 3 points 2 years ago

Czech here, was a bit surprised to see Ř in another language, because I was lead to belive it was unique to my language. Turns out the pronunciation is, but the letter it self does show up elsewhere.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%98

However what I find is that Ř is in Upper Sorbian, not Lower like the graph in the post implies. And Ů doesn't seem to be in either.

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sparkle 3 points 2 years ago

A surprising amount of speakers of Spanish have an ř sound, usually in place of the normal trill. Specifically, it's present in New Mexican Spanish (spoken in New Mexico & Colorado), Amazonic Spanish/"Jungle Spanish" and influenced dialects (spoken in Ecuador, Peru, parts of eastern Bolivia, Paruguay, northern Chile, northern Argentinia, the Colombian highlands, and I think south Venezuela), Guatemala, and Costa Rica.

Specifically, the sound is called a voiced alveolar fricative trill. The IPA symbol is [r̝].

It's said to be due to imported influence from northern Spain (Basque Country, Navarra, La Rioja), where the same sound is also present, and varyingly from the influence of various local Native American languages, some of which in the areas have/had the sound.

In some of those dialects, a pronunciation like [ʐ] may be used instead, which I think is similar to what's spelled ż/rz in Polish. The pronunciation can weaken further into [ɹ̝], which might be hard to distinguish from the r sound of some English speakers, or even more to [ɹ] which is similar to the r sound in some English speech.

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LANIK2000 1 point 2 years ago

Fascinating, thanks for the info! Much appreciated!

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freeman 3 points 2 years ago

Geoguessr pros have this memorized I assume

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Ephera -3 points 2 years ago

Thankfully, European countries are only a few kilometers across, so even if you just eyeball it, it's usually not too far off.

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freeman 1 point 2 years ago

You have never seen professional geoguessr players. Consider yourself lucky, its amazing to watch them for the first time. I can recommend the youtubers rainbolt, zigzag or geowizard as an oldschool player.

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Randelung 2 points 2 years ago

Swiss German doesn't have orthography and üü can absolutely appear.

Edit: They meant Schriftsprache/Schriftdeutsch, which is almost German but without the ß.

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Successful_Try543 2 points 2 years ago

AfaIk, Schweizer Hochdeutsch is not Schwizerdütsch, but a variety of standard German, with the replacement ß->ss.

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RootBeerGuy 2 points 2 years ago

The language is a variety of German. But there are no real writing rules. Text you see written in Switzerland, e.g. on signage, is practically Hochdeutsch with the needed substitutions of words, like chicken for for example where they don't use the German word.

Written language between people however has no rules and people write as they speak and that's definitely not Hochdeutsch.

Edit: I just read your post again and maybe that's what you meant and I misunderstood you.

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Successful_Try543 3 points 2 years ago

Yes, Schweizer Hochdeutsch is standard German without the ß, and some local words uncommon in Austria or Germany. Basically this is what newspapers as the NZZ are written in.
Schwizerdütsch are the Upper German dialects spoken in Switzerland and around, which, if written down at all, like OC said, don't follow a standard orthography.
Thus, you can find Schweizer Hochdeutsch on the chart, but not Swiss German, Schwizerdütsch.

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Randelung 2 points 2 years ago

Ah damn, you're probably right. Schriftdeutsch.

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Servais 1 point 2 years ago

Where does the diagram mention grammar?

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Randelung 1 point 2 years ago

Orthography. I thought it was a subset of grammar, but no.

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IAmNotACat 1 point 2 years ago

In primarily Irish speaking places you might find TH missing from the orthography entirely.

Similarly, I wonder if ä could show up in English. Such as in diäeresis.

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Observer1199 2 points 2 years ago
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IAmNotACat 1 point 2 years ago

I was pointing out that there are contexts (such as signage) in which they often don’t. It is possible to write perfect Irish without ever using a TH. For example:

“Go raiḃ maiṫ agat agus go n-éirí an boṫar leat”.

There are indeed books you could open and not find a single instance of it.

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Observer1199 2 points 2 years ago
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barsoap 2 points 2 years ago

No. For that to be the case you'd need to start pronouncing stuff correctly.

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drathvedro 1 point 2 years ago path: 0 11577767, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Obi 1 point 2 years ago

I just use my innate knowledge of my fellow Europeans to identify the language well enough to point in the general direction which it came from, or maybe using cardinal directions like "south" or "east"

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FluffyPotato 1 point 2 years ago

I'm not sure what the c with a line on it is but Estonian (või siis Eesti keel) doesnt have it.

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Successful_Try543 1 point 2 years ago

Where do you see a 'c with a line on it'? Starting from the 'latin' branch, you end up with Estonian saying no to everything except ä and õ.

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FluffyPotato 2 points 2 years ago

First thing left from "start here"

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Successful_Try543 1 point 2 years ago

That's a c with a hatschek or caron and Estonian is in the 'no' branch (red).

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FluffyPotato 2 points 2 years ago

Ah, it seems my eyes had a malfunction

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Valmond -3 points 2 years ago

Swedish doesn't have ø ffs

Edit: sorry my bad, its a "No" link, works as expected.

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jol 10 points 2 years ago

But then it's correct? Swedish is in the "no" branch for ø.

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Mazuu 10 points 2 years ago

The chart agrees with you..

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dunz -9 points 2 years ago

The swedish one is incorrect. It's ä and ö not æ and ø.

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crater2150 16 points 2 years ago

Swedish is on the "no" branch of those letters

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