[Resolved] Federation issues with lemmy.ml

2 years ago by lwadmin to c/lemmyworld

We're aware of ongoing federation issues for activities being sent to us by lemmy.ml.

We're currently working on the issue, but we don't have an ETA right now.

Cloudflare is reporting 520 - Origin Error when lemmy.ml is trying to send us activities, but the requests don't seem to properly arrive on our proxy server. This is working fine for federation with all other instances so far, but we have seen a few more requests not related to activity sending that seem to occasionally report the same error.

Right now we're about 1.25 days behind lemmy.ml.

You can still manually resolve posts in lemmy.ml communities or comments by lemmy.ml users in our communities to make them show up here without waiting for federation, but this obviously is not something that will replace regular federation.

We'll update this post when there is any new information available.


Update 2024-11-19 17:19 UTC:

Federation is resumed and we're down to less than 5 hours lag, the remainder should be caught up soon.

The root cause is still not identified unfortunately.


Update 2024-11-23 00:24 UTC:

We've explored several different approaches to identify and/or mitigate the issue, which included replacing our primary load balancer with a new VM, updating HAproxy from the latest version packaged in Ubuntu 24.04 LTS to the latest upstream version, finding and removing a configuration option that may have prevented logging of certain errors, but we still haven't really made any progress other than ruling out various potential issues.

We're currently waiting for lemmy.ml admins to be available to reset federation failures at a time when we can start capturing some traffic to get more insights on the traffic that is hitting our load balancer, as the problem seems to be either between Cloudflare and our load balancer, or within the load balancer itself. Due to real life time constraints, we weren't able to find a suitable time this evening, we expect to be able to continue with this tomorrow during the day.

As of this update we're about 2.37 days behind lemmy.ml.

We are still not aware of similar issues on other instances.


Update 2024-11-25 12:29 UTC:

We have identified the underlying issue, where a backport for a bugfix resulting in crashes in certain circumstances was accidentally reverted when another backport was applied. We have applied this patch again and we're receiving activities from lemmy.ml again. It may take an hour or so to catch up, but this time we should reliably be getting there again. We're currently 4.77 days behind.

We still don't have an explanation why the logs were missing in HAproxy after going through Cloudflare, but this shouldn't cause any further federation issues.


Update 2024-11-25 14:31 UTC:

Federation has fully caught up again.

MrKaplan 79 points 2 years ago

this comment section is not a place to rant about other instances

path: 0 13542072, hotness: undefined, score: 79, children: 38
finitebanjo 38 points 2 years ago

I don't see why not.

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Roflmasterbigpimp 17 points 2 years ago

Yeah a swept clean comment section looks way better....

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EndlessApollo 8 points 2 years ago

I'll just post a sentence instead of a rant then, defederate from .ml please :3

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cm0002 6 points 2 years ago path: 0 13542072 13616587, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 1
AustralianSimon 1 point 2 years ago

Weirdly I can't see any of the comments on that post

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Psythik 5 points 2 years ago

Please defederate from them.

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Glytch -18 points 2 years ago

Block the instance on your own client, not all of us are as closed minded as you are.

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alexanderniki -21 points 2 years ago

@Psythik just because you personally don't like them? Or what's the reason?

@MrKaplan

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Psythik 15 points 2 years ago

Because they're tankies, and I really don't need to explain to you why that's a bad thing. You already know.

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electricyarn 3 points 2 years ago

No seriously. I see the term used in memes and I don't know what it means.

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electricyarn 0 points 2 years ago

I don't kmow what tankie means

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Hamartia -20 points 2 years ago

The hypocracy of people exaggerating the scale of the problems and piling-on about other instances in their manic drive to turn this place into an echo chamber is depressing.

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auzy 20 points 2 years ago

It's been far better the past few days without them.

Honestly some of the discussions I have with lemmy.ml people don't make sense in any capacity

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Hamartia -5 points 2 years ago

I haven't really had that experience with anyone from .ml yet. There are a handful of actual tankies there but for the most part, from want I have seen, it's mostly various forms of far left opinion which no one should be afraid of.

Some people here do spend an unseemly amount of time complaining about them. Which is more toxic than anything they're usually complaining about.

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auzy 5 points 2 years ago

I had interactions like this person: https://lemmy.world/comment/13434977

A lot of them seem to be like the crazy Facebook crowd (not all).

But that being said, unfortunately, as Lemmy grows, I'm seeing more of that in general where we slowly move away from a "scientific" oriented approach, to half-truths and biased information.

So you're probably right.

But yeah, people do complain a disproportionate amount about them (I feel like a lot of people screaming "tankie", are similar to the trump crowd people)..

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GeneralInterest 8 points 2 years ago

"Echo chamber" is often used as a criticism on the internet. But in real life, when you make friends, it's with like-minded people, right? So maybe it makes sense to seek online spaces with like-minded people, rather than spaces with people of various views attacking and insulting each other.

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Hamartia -3 points 2 years ago

It's a reasonable argument for giving you tools for tailoring your own feed but not for censoring entire groups out.

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GeneralInterest 2 points 2 years ago

Yeah fair enough, maybe Lemmy.world shouldn't defederate from Lemmy.ml, when people can just block Lemmy.ml in their account settings if they want.

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SmilingSolaris -9 points 2 years ago

True. People out here fighting leftists like their life depends on it

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Serinus 1 point 2 years ago

"leftists"

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KoalaUnknown 70 points 2 years ago
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Metz 33 points 2 years ago

Unfortunately not entirely true. They have the largest Linux Community. To be precise, the big one.

ProgrammerHumor is there as well. The Open Source and Privacy communties are very bigs as well there. Completely dwaring their .world counterpart.

I'm not a fan of .ml either but you can't deny that they have this 3 parts (which very much represent the ideals behind lemmy) covered very well.

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PhilipTheBucket 55 points 2 years ago

The fact of a community being big doesn't mean that it is good.

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WoahWoah 14 points 2 years ago

They get smaller when less people federate with that clown-shoe of an instance. The idea that the community inertia in those three communities is forcing other instances to remain federated despite wide-spread dislike and disdain for .ml users is absurd. Burn the bridge. The more it gets defederated, the bigger similar communities on less toxic instances can and will grow.

Could you imagine using that logic in any other context? "I hang out with a community of KKK members because three of their members know a lot about Linux and have a lot of Linux-involved friends." Give me a break.

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Draconic_NEO 3 points 2 years ago

It happened that way with Beehaw. Beehaw used to be in the same position as lemmy.ml with some of their communities. But they decided to knee jerk defederate us and sh.itjust.works because we're big. They stopped being the de-facto communities not just for us here but almost anywhere else. Defederation does curb this kind of network effect, and quickly too, especially when it causes the less active ones to inflate like crazy.

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Blaze 12 points 2 years ago path: 0 13540484 13541096 13609020, hotness: undefined, score: 12, children: 0
Aatube 11 points 2 years ago path: 0 13540484 13541096 13549912, hotness: undefined, score: 11, children: 2
Blaze 1 point 2 years ago path: 0 13540484 13541096 13549912 13609012, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 1
Aatube 0 points 2 years ago
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gi1242 5 points 2 years ago
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awwwyissss 30 points 2 years ago

It's a constant problem on the fediverse, if you search for things like lemmy.ml and CCP, propaganda, censoring etc it'll get you started.

Hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml are even worse.

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LibertyLizard 20 points 2 years ago path: 0 13540484 13541096 13541905 13545818, hotness: undefined, score: 20, children: 5
gi1242 10 points 2 years ago
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marcos 3 points 2 years ago

Oh... I've tried to talk about fire retardants there once, just to have half of my words censored and my post becoming unreadable.

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Lemminary 10 points 2 years ago

I don't have a link because it's been a while, but others and I have been piled-on by .ml and Hexbear users. In my case, 40+ people replied with nasty comments to a single comment I had made. And then I got straight-up banned from .ml because they misinterpreted what I was saying about communism. A mod cited whatever ambiguous and unrelated bullshit sidebar rule and I got the hammer anyway calling me a troll. But all the nasty circle-jerk comments stayed up. So fuck'em.

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ChronosTriggerWarning 2 points 2 years ago

My experiences mirror this, tho not to that degree. It's similar to Mos Eisley over there.

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pyre 4 points 2 years ago

largest Linux community

oh no, where will we get posts about windows being bad

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Draconic_NEO 2 points 2 years ago

I think things like this can be helpful at curbing network effect. Which can only be really curbed by force. Beehaw used to have quite strong network effect in some communities too in the earlier days, but now, they have much less of a vice, and are actually much quieter than they were before.

Might be a good idea to check out !de_ml@lemmy.blahaj.zone in these trying times. In case it's a while before the issue is fixed.

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greencactus 52 points 2 years ago

Ah, I just today in the morning blocked Lemmy.ml. Seems to have been interesting timing :)

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Chozo 53 points 2 years ago

So it's your fault!

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Freefall 39 points 2 years ago

In which case, thank you.

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credo 19 points 2 years ago

No one said it was a global variable. You can hardly blame the user for poor documentation.

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DarkCloud 24 points 2 years ago

I've never had a positive interaction with Lemmy.ml. For me it serves as a quarantine space, and a set of pre-tagged users I don't personally enjoy dealing with.

...and I'm not particularly averse to Marxists sentiments either, but they're certainly not good sales people, diplomats, or representative of their cause.

Which is just part of their reputation now. Having a bad experience with a .ml user seems to be part of the lemmy experience. It's kind of comical how consistent it seems.

That said, I'm sure there's good people on .ml.

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Pilferjinx -3 points 2 years ago

Yeah, just avoid politics there and it's fine. We all know about their zeal so it's pointless to discuss it.

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Bremmy -1 points 2 years ago

Is there a reason people seem to not like .ml? I only joined because it said the instance was for FOSS enthusiasts

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Eldritch 11 points 2 years ago

Yes. Because it isn't for FOSS enthusiasts.. They use the .ml specifically to refer to an oppressive, violent, ignorant political ideology. Every bit as bad as capitalism. That's a threat to anyone that disagrees with them left or right.

A lot of older established communities are there by the circumstance of it being the oldest server. And not by any other virtue. In fact, there are a number like the KDE project that have their own instance. Completely detached from political ideology. Which is a wise decision. A lot of official projects don't want to be associated with the regular hypocritical and disparaging remarks of the admin staff there

I've been a foss enthusiast since the late 80s early 90s when I was in college. Used Linux since 94. Dabbled in BSD a bit before. Am solidly towards the anarchist left. And I block ML on principle alone. Authoritarians aren't allies. And access to open source communities shouldn't hinge on not accidentally crossing the fragile and hypocritical political ideologies of such groups. No place or group is perfect. But few are so flawed out of the gate.

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Blaze 3 points 2 years ago path: 0 13540574 13547225 13607645 13609034, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
Bremmy 2 points 2 years ago

Yikes! Thank you for writing this out, I had no idea. Fk those .ml tankies

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Blaze 5 points 2 years ago path: 0 13540574 13547225 13609033, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 1
Bremmy 2 points 2 years ago

Wow that's crazy, thank you and the other person for informing me

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Dasus 1 point 2 years ago

Russians

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rikudou 49 points 2 years ago
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Lost_My_Mind 47 points 2 years ago

I mean.....if you wanted to defederare from lemmy.ml I'd be fine with that.

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taipan 9 points 2 years ago

It's certainly an efficient way to resolve the problem.

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NateNate60 4 points 2 years ago

There's too much content on lemmy.ml to defederate. We'd lose like a quarter of all the content.

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Lost_My_Mind 23 points 2 years ago

We'd lose the .ml version of that content.

But I thought the whole point of federation was that if mods, or communities become problematic, you could always create your own. Then all the non-problematic people will move to that.

Is that not the very foundation of the concept of the fediverse?

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NateNate60 13 points 2 years ago

It's not wrong, but I don't regard Lemmy.ml as being problematic enough to defederate from. Their moderation practices are questionable and their user base is annoying but it's otherwise generally tolerable. People can block the instance if they don't want to see content from it.

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lurklurk 3 points 2 years ago

It would be nice to have a simple way to block the user base too

path: 0 13605676 13608260 13608286 13608623 13614944, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 1
Draconic_NEO 2 points 2 years ago

In order for that to work there needs to be effort taken to curb persistent network effect like the utterly monolithic communities on lemmy.ml. When there isn't any, they just get bigger and stronger. That isn't something you can do by starting new instances, it has to be done by ones with a big slice of the pie, something new instances never have unless started just after the collapse of an existing one.

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Draconic_NEO 12 points 2 years ago

We would adapt, just like when Beehaw was a significant amount of the userbase on Lemmy and they cut us and sh.itjust.works off, we adapted and they got smaller. Lemmy.world is a bigger server than lemmy.ml. Only reason their communities are still so big is network effect. Which would be curbed by them being cut off. As I've said already, network effect is curbed by force, taking away a choice, not providing 7 more choices while leaving the original.

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IndustryStandard -2 points 2 years ago

I wouldn't.

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finitebanjo 32 points 2 years ago

I can think of a solution.

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uservoid1 29 points 2 years ago

Could it be an issue/compatibility with lemmy.ml running Lemmy v0.19.7 ?

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MrKaplan 26 points 2 years ago

I don't believe it is.

There weren't any network related changes from 0.19.6 to 0.19.7 and we haven't seen this behavior with any of the 0.19.6 instances yet.

The requests are visible with details (domain, path, headers) in Cloudflare, but they're not showing on our proxy server logs at all.

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uranibaba 33 points 2 years ago

I've read enough posts over at /r/sysadmin, it is always DNS.

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scsi 51 points 2 years ago
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Freefall 25 points 2 years ago
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Freefall 3 points 2 years ago

Lol, flagged as inappropriate 🤣

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Roflmasterbigpimp 20 points 2 years ago
path: 0 13541808, hotness: undefined, score: 20, children: 3
Ensign_Crab -17 points 2 years ago
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awwwyissss 12 points 2 years ago
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Wooki 5 points 2 years ago
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FrostyTrichs 20 points 2 years ago

FWIW the communities on walledgarden.xyz have been having federation issues to lemmy.ml for a few days as well.

Since we were/are working through some things with our host I didn't want to bother anyone from lemmy.ml about it, but it's a thing. AFAIK federation is otherwise working normally.

Good luck getting it figured out and resolved!

path: 0 13546337, hotness: undefined, score: 20, children: 0
trespasser69 18 points 2 years ago path: 0 13614259, hotness: undefined, score: 18, children: 4
Olgratin_Magmatoe 8 points 2 years ago

FUCK active directory

path: 0 13614259 13614673, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 3
DarylDutch 4 points 2 years ago
path: 0 13614259 13614673 13627868, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 2
BluesF 1 point 2 years ago

Kill Firewall and marry WiFi (it's an open relationship)

path: 0 13614259 13614673 13627868 13637506, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Olgratin_Magmatoe 1 point 2 years ago

Active directory for both, against my will. It's all three

path: 0 13614259 13614673 13627868 13632287, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
DarkThoughts 17 points 2 years ago
path: 0 13540950, hotness: undefined, score: 17, children: 0
LibertyLizard 13 points 2 years ago
path: 0 13545532, hotness: undefined, score: 13, children: 0
Deestan 12 points 2 years ago

Do these things usually happen from time to time?

I've noticed some lemmy.ml communities looking surprisingly "dead" some days here and there but not thought much of it.

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MrKaplan 10 points 2 years ago

I wouldn't say usually, but they can happen from time to time for a variety of reasons.

It can be caused by overly aggressive WAF (web application firewall) configurations, proxy server misconfigurations, bugs in Lemmy and probably some more.

Proxy server misconfiguration is a common one we've seen other instances have issues with from time to time, especially when it works between Lemmy instances but e.g. Mastodon -> Lemmy not working properly, as the proxy configuration would only be specifically matching Lemmys behavior rather than spec-compliant requests.

Overly aggressive WAF configurations tend to usually being a result of instances being attacked/overloaded either by DDoS or aggressive AI service crawlers.

Usually, when there are no configuration changes on either side, issues like this don't just show up randomly.

In this case, while there was a change on the lemmy.ml side and we don't believe a change on our side fell into the time this started happening (we don't have the exact date for when the underlying issue started happening), while the behavior on the sending side might have changed with the Lemmy update, and other instances might just randomly not be affected. We currently believe that this is likely just exposing an issue on our end that already existed prior to changes on lemmy.ml, except the specific logic was previously not used.

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awwwyissss 11 points 2 years ago
path: 0 13541976, hotness: undefined, score: 11, children: 0
Wooki 7 points 2 years ago
path: 0 13542102, hotness: undefined, score: 7, children: 0
frostysauce 5 points 2 years ago
path: 0 13614383, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0
MehBlah 5 points 2 years ago
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BakedCatboy 4 points 2 years ago

Hmm interesting, so I guess even though I can see this hours old post, my comment should arrive in several days time. Hopefully I haven't responded to anyone on world with anything important recently.

path: 0 13546986, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1
lwadmin 5 points 2 years ago

it arrived a few minutes ago, federation is working again (for now)

path: 0 13546986 13547398, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0
AhismaMiasma 4 points 2 years ago

Lemm.ee is not loading at all, giving a 503 error. Possibly related?

path: 0 13547100, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1
MrKaplan 1 point 2 years ago

I doubt it

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yokonzo 4 points 2 years ago

There's actually been some issues with Reddthat as well, not seeing users ect

path: 0 13616450, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 7
MrKaplan 2 points 2 years ago

do you have some more details about that?

path: 0 13616450 13616483, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 5
yokonzo 1 point 2 years ago

I'm sorry I didn't see this, I mean I don't have much info for you, but basically I have noticed on lemmy.world posts if say I post on it with my alt I cannot see those posts even though I can see my lemmy.world account with my alt and all the comments it makes.

I have tested this with a few accounts and it seems to be consistent

path: 0 13616450 13616483 13649046, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 4
MrKaplan 1 point 2 years ago

could you share some specific examples?

feel free to pm them if you don't want to post them in public.

path: 0 13616450 13616483 13649046 13652272, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
yokonzo 1 point 2 years ago

Like it wasn't even posted

Like it wasn't even posted as shown here, I noticed it about In July or so

path: 0 13616450 13616483 13649046 13652272 13653363, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 2
ticoombs 2 points 2 years ago

I too would love to know what your experiencing (so I can fix it!)

path: 0 13616450 13620697, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
trespasser69 4 points 2 years ago path: 0 13541340, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 0
neanderthal 1 point 2 years ago

Hmm. I have used HAproxy a lot. I doubt that is the issue. If other instances are working fine, my guess it is on their end.

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DATAGS 1 point 2 years ago

What's happening

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