randoot 296 points a year ago

Ha only if. Autopilot turns off right before a crash so that Tesla can claim it was off and blame it on the driver. Look it up.

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DarrinBrunner 101 points a year ago

I didn't know this, but I'm not shocked, or even a little bit surprised.

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Sonicdemon86 48 points a year ago

Mark Rober had a video on autopilot of several cars and he used his Tesla. The car turned off the autopilot when he crashed through a styrofaom wall.

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randoot 45 points a year ago

This is how they claim autopilot is safer than human drivers. In reality Tesla has one of the highest fatality rates but magically all of those happen when autopilot was "off"

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anomnom 5 points a year ago

It turns it off with the parking sensor 2ft before the accident.

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ChilledPeppers 1 point a year ago

But tesla doesn't claim you can ever not overlook the car, so if you didn't notice and stop it, it is your fault. Fuck elon and all that, but it is somewhat reasonable.

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HonoraryMancunian 28 points a year ago

Holy shit I did indeed look it up, and it's true. Dunno if it'll hold up but it's still shady as shit

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JcbAzPx 17 points a year ago

Most states apply liability to whoever is in the driver seat anyway. If you are operating the vehicle, even if you're not controlling it at that moment, you are expected to maintain safe operation.

That's why the Uber self driving car that killed someone was considered the test driver's fault and left Uber mostly off the hook.

Not sure how it works for the robo taxis, though.

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Allonzee 6 points a year ago

Yeah that's gonna be tricky with those. I live in Vegas where they're already operating. No steering wheel at all.

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GoodEye8 3 points a year ago

I don't know the specifics of how the law is implemented but the self driving levels are defined such that from SAE level 3 onward you may have a case against manufacturer. I haven't kept up to date with Tesla SAE level but I imagine they're still officially on level 2 because it lets them keep their hands clean.

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nekbardrun 1 point a year ago

Well.... What about blaming the passengers?

Now, I would like to imagine the legal case of an accident involving a self driving robo-taxi transporting another robot to a facility (owned by the company).

Maybe they can blame the humans who suffered the accident?

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Tja 5 points a year ago

The driver is always at blame, even if it was on. They turn it off for marketing claims.

PS: fuck elon

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sexy_peach 136 points a year ago

Autopilot will turn off a few milliseconds before impact either way

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supersquirrel 93 points a year ago

Unironically this is a perfect example of why AI is being used to choose targets to murder in the Palestinian Genocide or in cases like DOGE attacking the functioning of the U.S. government... also US healthcare company claims of denial or collusion of landlord software to raise rent.

The economic function of AI is to abdicate responsibility for your actions so you can make a bit more money while hurting people, and until the public becomes crystal clear on that we are under a wild amount of danger.

Just substitute in for Elon the vague idea of a company that will become a legal and ethical escape goat for brutal choices by individual humans.

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SkavarSharraddas 31 points a year ago

Which is why we need laws about human responsibility for decisions made by AI (or software in general).

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AnarchistArtificer 3 points a year ago

I did an internship at a bank way back, and my role involved a lot of processing of spreadsheets from different departments. I automated a heckton of that with Visual Basic, which my boss was okay with, but I was dismayed to learn that I wasn't saving anyone's time except my own, because after the internship was finished, all of the automation stuff would have to be deleted. The reason was because of a rule (I think a company policy rather than a law) that required that any code has to be the custody of someone, for accountability purposes — "accountability" in this case meaning "if we take unmaintained code for granted, then we may find an entire department's workflow crippled at some point in the future, with no-one knowing how it's meant to work".

It's quite a different thing than what you're talking about, but in terms of the implementation, it doesn't seem too far off.

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The_Caretaker 11 points a year ago

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supersquirrel 6 points a year ago

Yes, good point, there is a clear through line here

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atomicbocks 5 points a year ago

FYI: Scapegoat.

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supersquirrel 5 points a year ago

Lol well, Escape Goat 1 & 2 were just too damn good at being tough as nails indie platformers and now the word is hopelessly Escape Goat not Scapegoat in my head I am afraid.

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AnarchistArtificer 3 points a year ago

It reminds me of how apparently firing squad executions used to have only some of the guns loaded with live guns, and the rest with blanks. This way, the executioners could do some moral gymnastics to convince themselves that they hadn't just killed a person

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greenskye 3 points a year ago

Which is honestly just the end game of a practice that's been getting worse for decades. It's partly why stuff was outsourced. The more layers between us and the atrocities, the less humanity can focus on reacting to them.

There's been a concerted effort to introduce as many possible layers as they can to divide people and break up communities in order to break humans ability to empathize (and then use that empathy to affect change).

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ZILtoid1991 56 points a year ago

Except the autopilot will modify its data that it was turned off right at the moment it hits people...

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NikkiDimes 47 points a year ago

Nah, it just disengages a fraction of a second before impact so they can claim "it wasn't engaged at the moment of impact, so not our responsibility."

There were rumours about this for ages, but I honestly didn't fully buy it until I saw it in Mark Rober's vison vs lidar video and various other follow-ups to it.

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Tja 9 points a year ago

It not about responsibility, it's about marketing. At no point do they assume responsibility, like any level 2 system. It would look bad if it was engaged, but you are 100% legally liable for what the car does when on autopilot (or the so called "full self driving"). It's just a lane keeping assistant.

If you trust your life (or the life of others) to a a lane keeping assistant you deserve to go to jail, be it Tesla, VW, or BYD.

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xeekei 8 points a year ago

For fucking real??

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NotMyOldRedditName 12 points a year ago

It turns off, but it's likely so the AEB system can kick in.

AP and AEB are separate things.

Also all L2 crashes that involve an air bag deployment or fatality get reported if it was on within something like 30s before hand, assuming the OEM has the data to report, which Tesla does.

Rules are changing to lessen when it needs to be reported, so things like fender benders aren't necessarily going to be reported for L2 systems in the near future, but something like this would still be and alway has.

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AnUnusualRelic 1 point a year ago

What's AEB? Automatic Energetic Braking?

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xeekei 1 point a year ago

Ok but if Tesla's using that report to get out from liability, we still've a damn problem

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Ageroth 3 points a year ago

https://youtu.be/IQJL3htsDyQ

I'll admit I haven't actually watched the video yet but here it is

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guywithoutaname 41 points a year ago

I'd imagine you are always responsible for what you do when you're driving, even if a system like autopilot is helping you drive.

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LemmyFeed 36 points a year ago

Especially cause autopilot disengages right before the accident so it's technically always your fault.

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arin 6 points a year ago

Yup gotta read the fine print

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opus86 5 points a year ago

If you are in the drivers seat, you are responsible for anything the car does unless there was a provable mechanical failure.

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spankmonkey 40 points a year ago

At best Tesla pays a fine, not Elon.

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koper 25 points a year ago

Don't worry, DOGE will just fire the investigators before that happens.

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ZkhqrD5o 40 points a year ago

Tldr: Take the train and be safe.

Rant: In the EU, you are 35x more likely to die from a car crash, compared to a train crash. The union has created the so-called Vision Zero program, which is designed to reach zero driving deaths by some arbitrarily chosen date in the future. And of course it talks about autonomously driving cars. You know, crazy idea, but what if instead of we bet it all on some hypothetical magic Jesus technology that may or may not exist by the arbitrarily chosen date and instead focus on the real world solution that we already have? But well, the car industry investors would make less money, so I can answer that myself. :(

Edit: Also, Musk is a Nazi cunt who should die of cancer.

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bleistift2 13 points a year ago

Speaking as a German: There are fewer train-related deaths because the trains don’t drive.

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ZkhqrD5o 6 points a year ago

Well, we can thank Mr. Schröder for that. "Der Genosse der Bosse"

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dorumon 6 points a year ago

Too bad I live in hell country. Where there are no sidewalks or public transportation just roads and we have facist dipshits bought out by big car companies. I would love to take a train or a bus but that stuff doesn't exist here and never will until we re-educate and remake America from the ground up. America is just too far gone at this rate to even want these public transportation services at all or even bike-lanes. Cities would rather destroy themselves for big top stores anyway and highways thinking they are a good thing only to realize that will ensure they will cease to be alongside their local businesses. I'm sorry but I'm forced to walk on the road and nearly get run over legally speaking with zero repurcussions from the driver side because I shouldn't of been walking on the road anyway.

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ZkhqrD5o 6 points a year ago

I've never been in the USA. Is it really that bad? I've heard that the USA have basically eradicated their own culture, because they destroyed their city centres in favour of suburbs, which need to be subsidised constantly. And therefore, cities sprawl. Is that true?

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RBWells 5 points a year ago

In my city, there are buses, but because there's sprawl to the edges of the huge county, and all the people in the suburbs drive and don't want buses, and the county (not the city) is in charge of transportation, it's starved to the point of near impossible inconvenience.

There are plenty of people living inside the city now, we've got a nice downtown, with people living there, but at this point it's all set up to favor automobiles. Like I intentionally live in a short walk distance to bus stops that could get me anywhere the buses go, but I use the electric bike and can get anywhere faster than the bus. Transfers are so bad because the buses are so infrequent.

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ZkhqrD5o 4 points a year ago

I think I start to understand. But how is it possible to move this many people with cars? I mean, for example, a family of four would then need, four different trips and essentially two different cars because if the adults do not work at the same place, how are they going to get to work on time? Or am I imagining it wrong?

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dorumon 5 points a year ago

Yes it is really this bad and in a lot of cities there is even anti homeless architecture being built. Entire cities in the United States basically got turned into suburbs and roads overnight. For many Americans they cannot even walk outside their neighborhood without having the police get called on them in their own suburban sprawl or getting a gun legally pulled on them and potentially legally killed with no recourse on the shooter. This country is hell on Earth minus our theme parks and local parks and some of the cities that still exist normally today.

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ZkhqrD5o 4 points a year ago

What is "anti-homeless architecture"? Genuine question.

Edit: Also, thanks for the detailed answer.

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SwingingTheLamp 3 points a year ago

98% true.

(The other 2% is historic districts and college towns.)

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ArtemisimetrA 6 points a year ago

We have Vision Zero in the US, too. They lowered speed limits in a couple neighborhoods from 25mph to 20, and all the LED road signs show annual aggregated deaths from car crashes until the number is greater than zero, then someone wrings their hands and says "Welp, we did what we could, guess people just like dying" and then goes on vacation. (Source: me, I made up the spokesperson who gets scapegoated, but all the other stuff is observationally evident where I live)

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FuckFascism 5 points a year ago

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ZkhqrD5o 9 points a year ago

Have you seen his human-growth-hormone belly? It would take years, man.

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ThatGuy46475 3 points a year ago

Retrofitting, in some parts of the world suburbs have already been built.

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HeavyRaptor 2 points a year ago

I agree trains are generally safer but I'd like to know more about the data. Are those just base death chance statistics (e.g.: 100 people die from train accidents every year compared to 3500 from cars) or deaths/km travelled?

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ZkhqrD5o 6 points a year ago

The numbers are calculated from the average of the EU27 killed travelers per billion person kilometers.

So in this case 2.5 perished by car, 0.07 perished by trains, (2.5/0.07~35.71).

Source: https://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/...

Critique of source: biased towards trains given their organisation's purpose.

Edit: typo.

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HeavyRaptor 3 points a year ago

Very thorough answer, thanks!

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TheKMAP 2 points a year ago

Does every single post related to cars have to turn into "don't use cars lol"???

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SwingingTheLamp 8 points a year ago

It's kind of the natural result, because cars are good for:

navigating a landscape designed to exclude anything but cars
conspicuous consumption
identity signaling

And they're really bad for:

people
the environment
transportation

Do an honest evaluation, and "don't use cars" is the inevitable conclusion.

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Tja 2 points a year ago

Well, there is no train station at my house. Or Aldi. Or my kids Kindergarten. And I live Germany, where public transport is excellent on a global level (memes about Deutsche Bahn aside).

Cars will be necessary for the foreseeable future. Let's make them as safe as possible while investing in public transport, they are not mutually exclusive.

PS: fuck Elon.

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Reygle 39 points a year ago

Made by someone who's able to THINK like a Tesla owner.

Brake pedal? Unthinkable

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Demdaru 10 points a year ago

Dude, that's paid premium

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Reygle 3 points a year ago

Lol

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Wilco 3 points a year ago

Coming soon to a Semi near you.

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secret300 2 points a year ago

Have you seen the brake test first Tesla's? It's not good

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PennyRoyal 25 points a year ago

Wow. That’s a staggeringly apt update

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DannyBoy 41 points a year ago

apt update

Debian user?

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PennyRoyal 17 points a year ago

Ha, no, just verbose

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nekbardrun 4 points a year ago

verbose?

So a debian stable user then...

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vk6flab 9 points a year ago

😂

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SaharaMaleikuhm 22 points a year ago

In my country it's always your fault. And I'm very glad.

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Sauerkraut 2 points a year ago

Here in the US, even if the driver is found responsible it is often only a small fine ($500) and maybe a 30 day suspension for killing someone.

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AnUnusualRelic 5 points a year ago

What if you kill a CEO?

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Sonotsugipaa 1 point a year ago

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SabinStargem 10 points a year ago

The obvious answer is to autopilot into ICE and Trump Regime officials. Elon pays the fine, the world is ridden of MAGATs, and one less Tesla on the road. D, D, D.

/s.

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throwawayacc0430 9 points a year ago

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ByteJunk 4 points a year ago

Don't the Sovereign Citizens's say something like that? Weird people man...

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HurlingDurling 9 points a year ago

Slam on the brakes?

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mosiacmango 8 points a year ago

Cant Kobayashi maru the trolley problem. There is no choice but the choices presented.

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explodicle 5 points a year ago

Kobayashi Maru was supposed to be unwinnable too!

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daggermoon 4 points a year ago

I like that everyone on this site watches Star Trek.

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mosiacmango 2 points a year ago

Damn straight. Even if you didn't before joining Lemmy, c/tenforward is so good you're going to start.

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edgemaster72 1 point a year ago

We could've watched it a dozen, a hundred times. It's impossible to tell.

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teejay 0 points a year ago

Sure. The Tesla is doing 45 mph and the collision is 15 feet ahead. Your reaction speed + brakes will totally fix it, math checks out.

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AeonFelis 8 points a year ago

Oh. A fine. How will Musk survive that financially?

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Etienne_Dahu 4 points a year ago

He won't be fine...

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selokichtli 7 points a year ago

It's a feature, not a bug.

-Musk, probably.

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plantmoretrees 6 points a year ago

Elon isn’t going to last much longer no matter what

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pomfegranate 4 points a year ago

Trick question. I'm asleep at the wheel

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drunkpostdisaster 3 points a year ago

Just let it happen we are all going to die anyway

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theotherbelow 3 points a year ago

In the US its still on you if you have the last clear chance to avoid an accident when you are in the drivers seat. Fun to pay for a billionaires mistakes.

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sir_fart_alot 3 points a year ago

Just swerve to the right

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Raccoon_Rick 1 point a year ago

Rare footage of Elon just leaked

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don 2 points a year ago

Attach 12 M67s to the underside of the turdsla, each having a sturdy steel cable welded to the pin. Retreat to a safe distance behind appropriate cover and pull cables using a forceful yank.

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