Its not a corrections system, it's a punishment system; unfortunately.
That post seems to be missing.
Potatos_are_not_friends 51 points 3 years ago
People aren't reformed after leaving prison. Many ex-cons are forced into even worse situations and have to resort back to crimes to survive.
Hyperreality 22 points 3 years ago
I don't think a system that's focussed on rehabilitation rather than punishment would be popular with American voters.
Countries that do focus on rehabilitation in western democracies, often hand out less long sentences and treat their prisoners relatively nicely. Their own cell, tv, etc. Still prison though, being robbed of your freedom is punishment in and of itself. On average that leads to better outcomes, lower recidivism, ....
But on a case by case basis, discovering someone who committed a heinous crime was let out after 10 years? Sure, often monitored, evaluated, and with stringent conditions. Sure, only if the chance they'll do it again is very low. But still. It doesn't feel right. Same thing with nice prison cells. Show the average American a Norwegian prison cell, and tell them it houses a rapist, and they'll be understandably offended. Think it isn't fair. Which it almost certainly isn't, but you don't lower the chance of repeat offending by sticking someone in a cage for ten years.
Also, I do wonder if these kinds of prisons are possible in a country without a semi-decent social safety net. If jail's better than being homeless, and homelessness is rampant, people will commit crimes just to escape. You end up rewarding criminals, because jail is comparatively nice compared to their existence outside jail.
brygphilomena 16 points 3 years ago
The American political stance of "hard on crime" is why we will never see legislation reforming our prison system.
Start talking about prison reform, lowing mandatory sentences, zero tolerance, prisoner rights, and living conditions and see how hard you get attacked.
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monarchsonvacay 4 points 3 years ago
They don't have to be. That's not the point of it: the point is to punish them or permanently keep them locked away. If we wanted to guarantee they'll never hurt anyone ever again, we'd execute them and still do in some states.
DietBajaBlast 2 points 3 years ago
YOU DON’T SAY!
RedditWanderer 14 points 3 years ago
It's funny because the little shits like him who think they are smarter and above the law, are the same people who are going to power trip on him in jail. I really hope he spends the rest of his life there, see what it's like to be shorthanded for once.
Jackolantern 12 points 3 years ago
The article says that he can already get vegetarian and that they’re looking into getting vegan.
arc 5 points 3 years ago
Most of the fruit, veg, rice, beans, oats, grits, bread, salad, condiments, pasta, juice etc. on the menu would be vegan any way. There might some mixed with milk or butter, but most is just going to be boiled, baked or fried in oil. Plus all the stuff from the commissary.
Zorque 6 points 3 years ago
I think you vastly overestimate how many foods are made without animal products. I'm not even fully vegan and I often find it hard to get food that doesn't have some kind of dead animal in it.
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dragonflyteaparty 101 points 3 years ago
I think it's crazy the number is people here who think that jail/prison is supposed to primarily be about punishment. Do they not understand the concept of recitavism?
faerydaes 17 points 3 years ago
Former Christian fundamentalist here. I think it's a religious thing, actually. It's very common in conservative religion in America to believe that there are good and evil things and people, and all you need to do is punish evil things and people. Any problems that exist are punishment from God for allowing evil instead of punishing it. Everything will be solved magically by God once you and your society are "righteous" enough (disapproving enough of evil), something which will never actually happen because this will literally just make things worse, providing more evidence of God's wrath.
This religious belief has influences far beyond the fundamentalist religion it came from, and it really helps explain why so many right wing movements are so contradictory and hypocritical.
Everyone else is out here thinking things like "if there's a problem, we need to figure out the solution" while a solid third or more of the American people is literally thinking that they just need to hurt the right people and God will fix it.
(Source: I grew up in the Christian right)
driving_crooner 6 points 3 years ago
By rest of the world you mean Europe? Latinamerican, African and Asian jails are nightmares compared with US's ones.
driving_crooner 4 points 3 years ago
I would guess that's depends on the country, all of those have problems with funding, but they differ on the punitive philosophy. For example argentinean prisoners can get jobs that pay the legal minimum wage and all the normal labor rights any worker enjoys, in Brazil they can read books and wrote essays about them to commute prison time, but their jails still lack proper infrastructure and are overcrowded.
some_designer_dude 13 points 3 years ago
Good bot.
toolverine 8 points 3 years ago
Goodest bot.
FlyingSquid 8 points 3 years ago
I am all for mitigating recidivism. I also think some people are just evil and won't reform. Someone who did the things SBF did won't reform.
See also: This asshole.
Draconic_NEO 1 point 3 years ago
It is certainly odd, though I bet that's going to change. For some strange reason people love talking about that stuff and even though it hasn't appeared in this thread yet it probably will soon.
Edit: it already happened, someone decided to say that they wondered how chewed he's going to be. You all just can't help yourself with the rape jokes, can you?
Draconic_NEO 1 point 3 years ago
What does the idea of punishing people even solve in the first place? It doesn't help them, in fact it actually hurts them. It doesn't teach them how to be better people, so they're likely to do the same thing again. Oh yeah and it wastes resources on punishing these people, resources that could be going to regular people but are instead essentially being wasted to torture someone instead of trying to help them.
I bet somebody's going to come out of the woodwork and try and argue that prison helps people somehow, by punishing them and making them scared, though I've found that making people scared is the wrong way of going about making them into a better person, because scared people just like animals will react, and it's not pretty when they do.
fabulousflamingos 7 points 3 years ago
Punishing evildoers doesn't hurt me, it only helps me. What does hurt me and millions of other Americans is when looney-bin cultists like you take the worst offenders and exploit them to manipulate and bully their victims and the victims' supporters into caving to your insane demands just so you can make yourself feel better. That's what actually hurts people.
abbotsbury -2 points 3 years ago
That's some mental gymnastics to claim someone disagreeing with you is hurting people.
Coreidan -3 points 3 years ago
It’s because most people saying this shit live in America where all prisons are for pure cruelty and punishment, not rehabilitation.
You see, here in America prisons are an industry that generates profits for stakeholders. True rehabilitation would cut into their profits, therefore they do everything in their power to ensure you never leave, and if you do they will leave you with enough mental trauma and behavioral issues that you will return.
Corporate media propaganda ensures americans continue to support this shit just like all the rest of the fucked up shit around here. Thanks corporate America!
Default_Defect 13 points 3 years ago
Grifters find a new way to grift all the time. He'd reoffend as soon as he was able.
endofheatwave 5 points 3 years ago
Nah, the vegans absolutely will demand Sam Bankman-Fried's release on the basis that he's not getting gourmet vegan meals anymore, simply because all they really care about is their veganism and not other people.
All the loonies care about are themselves.
ZodiacSF1969 5 points 3 years ago
He hasn't been sentenced or convicted yet.
Floey 92 points 3 years ago
I keep seeing the sentiment in this thread that if you go to prison you basically deserve whatever happens to you, which is a fucked up stance in itself, but more importantly:
Why do the cows, chickens, etc. deserve to suffer because someone is in prison? Does that make sense in any moral framework? How would you feel if we bagged random people not guilty of anything and forced prisoners to watch them tortured "on their behalf" as a form of punishment? That's pretty much the same situation ethically and everyone would agree it's fucked up.
Guntrigger 91 points 3 years ago
In these comments, People who:
- think vegetarian is close enough to vegan.
- don't realise vegan items are no longer vegan if they're for example, cooked in butter.
- want prisoners to rot in jail from the inside out, literally.
I_Fart_Glitter 59 points 3 years ago
I don't think prison should be punitive, but I REALLY don't think jail should be punitive. You haven't been proven guilty of anything when you're in jail.
All of the food served in prison/jail is dogshit and it's not ok. Edible food is a human right. People with ethically based diet restrictions should be protected the same way that religiously based diet restrictions are.
Belief in a make believe sky-daddy doesn't make one persons ethical dietary choices more important than another's. Maybe the Satanic Temple can step in and help out the incarcerated vegans. That seems up their alley.
nomadjoanne 16 points 3 years ago
Yes from everything I hear American prisons are all around horrible (by first world standards). This doesn't seem surprising.
You're there to be punished by your freedom of movement being taken away. Not by being forced to eat inedible food.
Papergeist 12 points 3 years ago
If prisons are going to get nutritious food, then school children need to get it first.
Eufalconimorph 5 points 3 years ago
Sysco provides the food to both in many cases.
VerdantSporeSeasoning 5 points 3 years ago
... Or Aramark
Shudders
Lazylazycat 4 points 3 years ago
They both should, this should be the bare minimum for being a human existing in society.
NuPNuA 33 points 3 years ago
I have noticed for a supposedly progressive network, there are a lot of posts recently on news stories about prisoners supporting capital punishment and wishing prison violence on them. Very odd stuff.
RHSJack 6 points 3 years ago
This has been repeated in case studies around the world since then but the Nuremberg Trials were the first public use of "But of course the other officers at Auschwitz were terrible people but I am not a terrible person!" The psychology would be interesting if it weren't so frikkin horrific. But I suspect SBF isn't that so much as a complete and total narcissist and sociopath.
ICastFist 4 points 3 years ago
Some of these "enemies" dehumanise themselves very easily. Narcisistic sociopaths who actively and openly brag about manipulating "idiots", saying they're the best shit to ever grace the earth and downplay their crimes while laughing all the way to the bank to withdraw ill gotten gains? Yeah, real hard to believe they'd ever want to redeem themselves.
Couple that with the general feeling that rich assholes always get lightly punished whenever they're caught and it's even easier to understand the bloodlust for "proper punishment" against them.
Honytawk 9 points 3 years ago
I think it has more to do with rich people getting away with murder because they are rich while homeless people getting the worst punishment for stealing a loaf of bread or sleeping on a bench.
And the rest of society getting sick and tired of it, so I see their sentiment.
I don't believe in capital punishment though, let alone a death sentence.
Guntrigger 5 points 3 years ago
The thing is, if the rich are getting treated like this in prison, surely it's going to be even worse for literally anyone else.
Guntrigger 4 points 3 years ago
True enough, but it was just an example. More likely something like mashed potato will have milk or other dairy. Even vegetarian nutriloaf might not qualify as vegan.
Point is not everything that starts out vegan ends up vegan on the plate.
Lazylazycat 2 points 3 years ago
Most margarine isn't vegan either.
Lazylazycat 2 points 3 years ago
They usually contain buttermilk or whey (on top of vegetable fat of some kind). They won't be vegan unless they specifically say they are.
CaptainEffort 8 points 3 years ago
Unfortunately this isn’t just Lemmy, or even Reddit. People irl feel this way.
Actually, to Lemmy’s credit, I’ve seen way more pushback to that mentality here than I’ve seen anywhere else.
clothes 3 points 3 years ago
I will say that it gives me hope that so many people are pushing back in threads like this. I've been trying a lot of platforms in recent months, and places like Tildes, HackerNews, and even Beehaw seem to be better able to have constructive conversations about heated topics. So we're not alone!
BonfireOvDreams 84 points 3 years ago
He is Vegan. Irrespective of how we feel about what he did, the failure to address his core ethical beliefs is completely unacceptable. If his belief was rooted in ideas of a higher being or afterlife, everyone would acknowledge how fucked up it is. Not that I'm planning on going to jail anytime soon, but if I could not be able to abide by that daily practice of my life it would be incredibly distressing. Unless he is doing it for environmental reasons (I don't know) he likely seeks total animal liberation, and you're going to force feed him stolen animal secretions? Coproducts of dead baby cows, blended up chicks, and beings bred into painful bodies? The alternative is malnutrition? I would highly consider Jainism or Sikhism on this fact alone. Fuck you if you think he should be forced to go against these ethical beliefs. It is 100% a human rights violation IMO.
Brokkr 17 points 3 years ago
That's a very sensationalist way to phrase your point and makes you sound fairly biased in the matter.
In the law, religious belief is a protected class, but dietary choice is not. A reasonable debate could be had about if it should be protected. The prison system nor the court room is the right forum, because it needs to be decided by the legislature.
dragonflyteaparty 29 points 3 years ago
Veganism it's not a simple dietary choice. Depending on how long the person has been vegan, a sudden switch could make them very sick.
Pogbom 44 points 3 years ago
And let's not pretend that prisons don't regularly disregard inmates dietary restrictions, even the medically necessary ones. It's easy to laugh at this one because 'haha vegan' but it's still atrocious to ignore any dietary restriction, let alone such a common one.
BonfireOvDreams 25 points 3 years ago
Veganism is not strictly a dietary choice. Look into ethical veganism. In the UK, Ethical Vegans are a legally protected class. I understand they are not legally protected in America - this does not require me to change my position at all. I made it clear that it's my opinion, and I presented how I would personally feel to be in his position and what I might consider just to have that ethical belief respected.
mightyfoolish 17 points 3 years ago
It's a lifestyle choice based on moral ramifications. I understand that you're not the legislative but it totally should be a part of the same protected class.
BonfireOvDreams 10 points 3 years ago
Nobody said the guy is entirely ethical ¯\(ツ)/¯
I don't think being forced to consume death/murder is the answer to him not being ethical with people's funds.
dezmd -6 points 3 years ago
So you aren't killing the plants and vegetables you eat as a vegan?
Or you perceive no ethical quandaries about murdering plants?
Or plants don't count because they don't have the same type of nervous system that allows us to communicate in an ethically direct fashion?
Are trees ethically more important than plants you can ethically eat, thus perceived as more ethically protected under such auspices?
And what's your ethical stance on property development groups clear cutting small pine tree forested areas near existing residential/industrial/commercial zoned areas to create more affordable single family and multi-family homes for low income families?
BonfireOvDreams 4 points 3 years ago
If I'm more specific, what Vegans care about is conscious experience. They don't care if something is alive or has some form of reactive biological intelligence. Its not a loose definition of killing that's the problem, it's the killing of conscious beings.
There is no scientific consensus as to the potential for consciousness in plants/trees. Almost nobody affirms that they are. You'll find generally that when we discuss consciousness we describe beings with brains, or if we get in to gray areas, beings that at least have some form of nervous system. Since there is some level of brain plasticity, I tend to take the position that consciousness is an emergent property found in those with a nervous system at bare minimum, but absolutely and especially those with brains. That said, there are particular areas of brains that if compromised will show patterns of lost consciousness, but I just don't affirm that those areas are entirely responsible.
So if plants and trees are not conscious, and they don't experience reality, and there is no subject, then there is no one to grant rights to. If we were talking about some random planet that had no conscious life on it, a planet that for some reason could never support conscious life but could support plant life, I would have no ethical quandary with a space fairing civilization taking all of those resources and leaving the planet with not but rock.
The need for residential housing complicates the ethics of forest habitat removal but not by that much if we consider what a vegan world looks like. Roughly 37.5% of the world's habitable land could be redistributed as that land currently is required for animal agriculture that otherwise wouldn't be. Roughly the size of North America and Brazil combined. You'd have loads of land that could be reforested but also some land that could be reused for housing purposes. As for current reality, I think there's a strong argument that group housing or apartment blocks would be far better for both people and the planet.
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Akasazh 8 points 3 years ago
I think the true argument is that dietary preference is a bit of a slippery slope. One could easily claim that they abide by a diet of only steak, truffles and lobster.
Obviously that is not feasible for a prison kitchen to fulfil. I do agree though that an effort could be made. I'm not sure if religious preference is catered to (no pork f.i.) and I could even see a point of not serving meat at all.
But the bottom line is that you can't let the prisoner make food demands like that and be considered unethical if not fulfilled. Medically there's not really a case here. Water and bread sounds a bit brutal, but it's not likely that he has no choice at all, it's also a bit of an act that his legal team will no doubt will utilise in court to claim 'inhuman circumstances'
dx1 5 points 3 years ago
It's not a slippery slope. Vegans have a saying, veganism is the moral baseline. Other prisoners who want to eat steak or chicken or hot dogs are being catered to for their preferences even though those actively cause victimization. But somebody wants to not victimize animals with their diet and all of a sudden it's "fuck them". None of you have thought about this at all.
AA5B 5 points 3 years ago
Irrespective of how we feel about what he did
What he has been accused of doing. He has not been proven guilty. I’m not saying he’s not guilty but until proven so, whatever happened to “innocent until proven guilty”?
BonfireOvDreams -1 points 3 years ago
Yes earlier in the thread it was very mob like. That's me just placating I suppose. He has not been proven guilty and they're already starving him. Doubly wrong.
CmdrShepard 21 points 3 years ago
I also think it's for show. Having worked in a jail kitchen, they serve lots of cheap food like beans and rice but also have vegetables and other foods that'd be considered vegan. I suspect what's happening is that he isn't getting gourmet meals like he was previously accustomed to, so he's refusing to eat anything else to gain sympathy points.
snapeyouinhalf 10 points 3 years ago
Depends on how it’s prepared. There are plenty of things one could add to veg that make them nonvegan, and a lot of us do add those things. Assuming originally vegan foods will be prepared and served in a way that keeps them vegan is a poor assumption. Idk about this guy’s actual diet, but I’ve seen a lot of vegans accidentally breaking their diet by eating something they assume is vegan, and then get sick from it since their bodies aren’t used to it anymore. Not to mention the guilt felt by those who are extremely serious about it.
TheFrirish 8 points 3 years ago
I agree, only because it's about veganism that there is a supportive reaction. If they were not respecting his Christian/Muslim beliefs for example no one here would bat an eye, especially here.
BonfireOvDreams 3 points 3 years ago
Admittedly if he held a religion that he claimed required meat consumption I would be in favor of not accommodating him. Thankfully, no major religion does this, because as it turns out in trying to seek ethical practice, they all arrive at the idea that abstaining from killing conscious beings is morally good.
TheFrirish 5 points 3 years ago
I also believe your first comment is correct and the US prison system is quite messed up to say the least. However I'm being very pragmatic here and I'm not going to shed a tear if he personally only has bread and water to eat. if anything it will do him some good. the problem is that this is applied to every person in jail or most jails.
BonfireOvDreams 6 points 3 years ago
He has been Vegan since at least April 2021. He was not arrested until December 2022. It's not a circus show. The dude's ethical beliefs in regards to Veganism are not in question. They need to be respected.
BonfireOvDreams -2 points 3 years ago
Ironic he can respect animals more than people
He doesn't eat humans or variations of incarcerated pregnant ladies' nonconsensually acquired breast milk. He respects them at least the same actually.
electrogamerman 3 points 3 years ago
No one is forcing him to do anythig. He has bread and water, or he is supposed to receive a special vegan menu?
Edit: Also imagine the girl that killed many new born babies, would you also be like: "give her a vegan diet, poor girl!?" BFR
BonfireOvDreams 5 points 3 years ago
He is not supposed to be malnourished. If the option is malnutrition, or disregard of ethical beliefs, I'd argue they actually are forcing him.
electrogamerman 0 points 3 years ago
Would you think the same if a mass murderer was requesting vegan food? For example the girl that killed new born babies on purpose, would you also be like: "poor girl, give her a vegan menu!"
CaptainEffort 3 points 3 years ago
Yes
mojorizer 0 points 3 years ago
Yes. A convicted murderer sitting in prison is still a human being with human rights. Fuck this dehumanizing system that only knows punishment. It's no wonder that the recidivism rate in the US is one of the highest in the world.
arc -1 points 3 years ago
There are plenty of items on a typical prison menu he can eat without eating "baby cow", or "blended up chicks" as you put it. There is no need to live off bread and water when there are vegetables, fruit, salad, juice, rice, beans etc. I'm sure this will be pointed out to him and also the limits of what a system will accommodate - dietary or religious needs. Also, his ethics are why he is in prison in the first place so boo hoo for him.
arc 5 points 3 years ago
It's not speculation. You can google "federal prison menu" and see the national menu that prisons supply. Here is the 2022 menu. You will note as you read that menu that there are obviously vegan food items that SBF could eat from every single meal of every single day of the week. Breakfast? Fruit, coffee, bread, branflakes... Lunch? Beans, sweet potatoes, mash, salad, rice, baked potato... Dinner? Tacos, salads, tofu, soups, tater tots, cornbread, corn on the cob, hummus... In most cases he even has a viable main option, and even if he can't he could always trade his main to someone else for a side of theirs. Not to mention stuff he can buy in the commissary - ramen noodles, candy, crackers, cookies etc.
So in summary, SBF is lying and trying to drum up sympathy for his own self-inflicted situation. I'm sure prison food sucks compared to what mommy makes or what his ill gotten fortunes could buy, but he is not reduced to bread and water.
lntl -4 points 3 years ago
SBF is in prison and has been relieved of his freedom.
The penal system must offer him a diet that satisfies his daily nutritional requirements because he is not free to do so on his own.
The state is not required to support his "ethical beliefs."
gmtom 0 points 3 years ago
Yes, I have, he's a horrible person, but treating him poorly will not undoe what he's done. And this goes far beyond this one person. The entire us """justice""" system is based around this.
Reggito9345 -3 points 3 years ago
He should be forced to eat the organs and flesh of animals, nothing green whatsoever, only flesh until the end of his days. He's a monster so he should eat what they eat and not pretend he's a fucking saint.
Reggito9345 1 point 3 years ago
If it were up to me I would force him to watch slaughterhouse of animals being slaughtered then force him to eat meat from the same kinds of animals killed in the video, if it were up to me, he would never touch greens again as long as he's alive.
NuPNuA 4 points 3 years ago
They are required in most civilised nations. You're just too used to America's punishment focused prison system, look at the prisons in Scandinavian nations and how they treat their prisoners.
Reggito9345 0 points 3 years ago
Only flesh and milk for him. Don't feed his made up vegan ethics nonsense, he needs to be miserable and eating meat that he despises is the perfect punishment for a little bitch like him.
CaptainEffort -3 points 3 years ago
rehabilitation or whatever the europeans call it
My god dude you’re like a walking parody. Please stop giving the US a bad name.
BonfireOvDreams 3 points 3 years ago
Can the state require you to eat the body or bodily fluids of someone you affirm has rights to bodily autonomy, someone we know to be wholly innocent because they lack agency?
lntl 4 points 3 years ago
No.
They're required to make the offer. I believe the prison where he's incarcerated has even offered him the option of vegetarian meals to complement his PB sandwiches.
I think that's a very generous offer that's he's used his agency to reject because he's a fool.
BonfireOvDreams 5 points 3 years ago
has even offered him the option of vegetarian meals
That doesn't necessarily work at all. Vegans don't eat food that contain or are prepared with any dairy or egg product. It's very likely all of their vegetarian meals are not Vegan accessible.
Reggito9345 -2 points 3 years ago
I don't think so, but it should, he totally deserves it.
YeetPics -9 points 3 years ago
stolen animal secretions ethical beliefs
Theft from animals is unethical, while theft from humans is ethical (based on his actions and your logic). From this we can extrapolate that humans aren't animals at all.
Thanks SBF! That clear up a lot.
BonfireOvDreams 0 points 3 years ago
I explained this elsewhere but stealing from someone's body is completely incongruous from using other's funds.
BonfireOvDreams -1 points 3 years ago
Okay. Lets try again. Stealing people's finances is not the same as stealing from their anatomy. I dont know know why you think I care about SBF specifically.
ObviouslyNotBanana 68 points 3 years ago
Hate the guy, pretty much, but tbh if it's true this isn't okay.
Reggito9345 0 points 3 years ago
No what's not okay is that they aren't forcing him it eat meat against his will. This is prison, not a vacation, he needs to be punished not catered to.
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Son_of_dad 24 points 3 years ago
Because jail isn't supposed to be there to torture and hurt people
clothes 5 points 3 years ago
I'm losing my mind in this comment section.
Vegan =/= Vegetarian
Basic access to a diet appropriate to each individual =/= Luxury
Being guilty of a crime =/= Being less human than the people you love
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rtxn -9 points 3 years ago
How is this torture? He isn't starving, and he doesn't have to eat gross or questionable food. If a vegan diet was a medical requirement, both his lawyers and the media would've milked it dry, but they didn't, which tells me that vegan food is only a preference.
dragonflyteaparty 6 points 3 years ago
And people who have been on a vegan diet long enough can get really sick if they are made to suddenly switch.
reagansrottencorpse 63 points 3 years ago
I have a feeling the only reason this guy is facing consequences is because he defrauded other rich people.
arc 60 points 3 years ago
I don't believe his choices are THAT limited. Most prisons will have a self-service line with a choice of boiled veg, rice, beans, potatoes, pasta, fruit, grits, oats. Also, and just generally, boo hoo for him. Funny how his ethics extend to what he eats, but not who he steals from.
LeadSoldier 12 points 3 years ago
I have no idea what you are talking about. I was arrested when I was protesting in El Paso. They just brought trays of slop to us in our cells three times a day. It looked close to an '80s elementary school lunch but slightly lower quality. It really wasn't reasonable. I was found not guilty because Americans are supposed to be able to protest. The FBI felt otherwise when they cut off part of the tape proving my innocence but got caught doing so without consequence.
alienanimals 51 points 3 years ago
We never get news articles on how the common prisoner views the food. Fuck this billionaire thief and fuck NBC news.
OldWoodFrame 40 points 3 years ago
Jail should accommodate a vegan diet, but it also seems like they are to some extent. PB sandwiches are food. As long as he can cobble together a nutritionally complete diet, it isn't cruel to have boring meals. Obviously JUST peanut butter sandwiches won't do it but I have to think they have potatoes, beans, rice on the menu too, stuff like that.
grue 12 points 3 years ago
Jail should accommodate a vegan diet
I think that should go without saying, and the real question is why isn't it the default? Why are we bothering to give prisoners (inherently relatively expensive/less sustainable) meat or dairy to begin with?
hh93 4 points 3 years ago
Because meat isn't taxes properly so that having a decent meat based diet is cheaper than having a decent plant based one
Sure there are a lot of cheap vegan meals, too, but some of them are harder and/or take longer to prepare than cheap meat-based food
I'd guess the dairy/meat lobby would complain a lot of they didn't have people forced to eat their stuff in prison
Id guess it's a very nice baseline of product-sales
Burn_The_Right 37 points 3 years ago
Crimes aside, punishment should not include limiting a person's diet or basic food options. No one's asking for gourmet in prisons, but basic fruits and vegetables should be the baseline.
Zorque 18 points 3 years ago
Jail isn't fun, no, but its also supposed to be about reformation, not straight punishment.
If all we do is punish them, they have no real incentive to change. Just do a better job of not getting caught next time.
Or, in Sammy's case, choose less influential people to bilk.
rtxn 3 points 3 years ago
This isn't punishment yet. Not for his financial crimes anyway. He's being held because he allegedly violated his bond through witness tampering and because he can't stop flapping his mouth to the media. The judge has an obligation to preserve the court's integrity throughout the case, for both the plaintiff and the defendant, and that means limiting the defendant's freedom.
Zorque 3 points 3 years ago
Limit the freedom with regards to how well they're fed? That seems pretty... draconian. "You're not guilty... yet, but we're going to curtail your basic freedoms on principle, cause fuck it right?"
nbafantest -9 points 3 years ago
Seems reasonable imo
zepheriths 34 points 3 years ago
The only reason this is being talked about is because he was a billionaire. Boo hoo poor guy stole 7billion Dollars, and now can't have the lifestyle he was used to
jumpinjesus 31 points 3 years ago
what is it with fraudsters and weird hair
Ulrich_the_Old 27 points 3 years ago
Yeast is alive he should go with just water. Also fuck him and everyone like him.
some_guy 21 points 3 years ago
A second attorney for Bankman-Fried, Christian Everdell, also said in court Tuesday that serious Sixth Amendment need to be addressed because Bankman-Fried has no way to prepare and participate in his defense. Everdell said that he has had no access to discovery materials for 11 days and that there are only six weeks left to the start of the trial.
[…]
But he was remanded to jail this month over allegations of witness tampering. His trial is set to begin Oct. 2. On Aug. 11, Kaplan denied his request to delay detention pending an appeal.
Starting to look like it wasn't a smart move meddling in the case, Sam. Almost as if actions have repercussions.
ChonkyOwlbear 19 points 3 years ago
So let him buy his food from the commissary. The prison doesn't serve potatoes? You can live off potatoes alone for a long time. Is there juice, cereal, rice, or beans? I find it hard to believe there isn't. He's clearly exaggerating the limits of his diet.
It's jail. You don't get to go where you want, do what you want, wear what you want, or eat what you want. You don't get to make choices about your life. That is part of the punishment.
nomadjoanne 18 points 3 years ago
You should look at what prisoners get to eat in France. Here in Spain prisoners wear their own clothes, only guards wear uniforms.
I believe the idea of prison should be that you are punished by you're freedom of movement being taken away. Not by being forced to eat inedible food or food that goes against your moral code.
ChonkyOwlbear 4 points 3 years ago
If he had a moral code he wouldn't have harmed so many people. He doesn't. He's just a brat who wants to do whatever he pleases.
FlyingSquid 16 points 3 years ago
It’s jail.
Yes it is. Which is where you go before being sentenced. So maybe don't punish people so harshly.
I'm not saying he deserves a gourmet vegan diet, but a few accommodations wouldn't be beyond the pale.
NuPNuA 7 points 3 years ago
Therein lies the philosophical question, is prison about punishment or rehabilitation? Dehumanising these people and telling them their beliefs and practices don't matter isn't going to make them want to return as a reformed member of society.
ChonkyOwlbear 0 points 3 years ago
Prison is both punishment and rehabilitation. The essence of it is to teach the prisoner to follow rules. Eating what you are told to eat is child-level rules following and he still can't do it.
ChonkyOwlbear 0 points 3 years ago
It's a lot easier to avoid eating one specific meat than all meats and animal products. Those are also religious restrictions which are protected. His veganism is an arbitrary choice he made, not an external religious mandate. You might as well expect the jail to give him nothing but chocolate cake because that is what he chooses.
arc 3 points 3 years ago
Exactly. While he might have to find alternative sources of protein by forgoing meat there is obviously going to be ample stuff on the menu he can eat. If he claims he's living off bread and water, he is either an extraordinarily picky eater, or more likely just a liar out for some sympathy.
original2 -1 points 3 years ago
You haven’t been proven guilty of anything when you’re in jail. it should not be punitive. Innocent until proven guilty.
When he gets to prison, by all means go ahead (I mean I believe in rehabilitation not retribution but that's personal); until then why not treat him like a human?
relative_iterator -11 points 3 years ago
It sounds like he’s depriving himself
rtxn -15 points 3 years ago
It's not a punishment. Jail is the result of alleged bond violation through witness tampering. The same meal that every other prisoner eats there is made available to him. He's not deprived of nutrition. If there was a medical reason that requires a vegan diet (like the prescribed adderall), don't you think his lawyers and the media would be crying about it? No, his veganism is most likely a lifestyle choice. Still on nutrition - he may dislike it, but he can survive on boring food.
AA5B 18 points 3 years ago
Yeah, I object to that as well. It may not be easy having empathy for a billionaire vegetarian but ….
When my kids were little, they took tours to meet first responders and see the facilities and equipment. However when police got to the hold facilities, they decided it was a “scared straight” opportunity. Part of their standard procedure was to steal make you pay to buy you disgusting greasy swill their choice of kids meal their quantity at the nearest fast food place. You have no choice, no reasonably healthy options, no allowance for anyone not used to all that grease, and you have to pay for it. I guess spending the day half starving while sitting on the toilet is “justified” for people who haven’t even had a chance to face charges yet.
…. Oh and they were practically gleeful to point out that after a certain time Friday afternoon, the magistrate wouldn’t respond until the next week, so you would be stuck.
magnor 18 points 3 years ago
And yet they served organic food to the Qanon Shaman. Go figure.
Astroturfed 12 points 3 years ago
I'm all for improving conditions in the prison system. However, with how bad we know it is, expecting a vegan diet is a bit laughable. I'm surprised they offer vegetarian options at all.
norawibb 31 points 3 years ago
I disagree. It's a moral issue. What if someone was wrongly convicted? Force them to go against their moral system? I personally couldn't bear to eat the flesh of an animal. I get this dudes a criminal but like, I don't think the issue itself is laughable.
Nepenthe 31 points 3 years ago
Even if they weren't wrongly convicted. Murderer happens to follow any one of the religions that forbid pork? What's feeding them bacon going to accomplish, exactly? It's purely out of spite when the object is supposed to be to discourage reoffending. Treating people humanely makes them act human. Call them a dog and they'll act like a dog.
Even the more progressive can be like this. People have weird ideas about human worth being something measurable and thus rescindable.
Franzia 2 points 3 years ago
I think the statistics show our non-rehab priaon system only hardens the will of criminals, and if we want to break their will to do crime we will actually have to show them compassion, as dozens of other countries are successfully doing.
CaptainEffort 1 point 3 years ago
Ummm… you think an eye for an eye is effective? You realize the saying is “an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”, right?
Astroturfed 4 points 3 years ago
There was nothing to disagree with. I didn't say I don't think they shouldn't supply vegan. I just know what the US prison system is like and wouldn't expect them to. It's fucking criminal gladiator college. There are some prisons that barely feed the inmates and make them need money for commissary food to not be hungry constantly.
I'm sure where SBF is being kept is a white collar low security place where they treat them better. They're still treated like caged dogs though.
Ejh3k -13 points 3 years ago
At what point do you consider something not an animal? Is it a size consideration? Like, you'd eat a hummingbird but not a chicken? Warm versus cold blooded? Is it vertebrae versus endoskeleton? Would you eat ants and crickets?
Because I get the whole no animal by products, but fermented foods are animal by products. Most breads have yeasts in it, those are animals. Beer and wine, same.
norawibb 16 points 3 years ago
This is a completely different topic but okay.
Since you want specifics, veganism isn't actually about animals, its about sentient beings. I wouldn't eat a cow or a dog or a human, because they each have the capacity to suffer and the desire to live. Anything that has this capacity is off the table for vegans. Even bugs, while obviously being less sentient than a cow or human, still demonstrate this in some capacity. So no, I just eat plants and fungi. Technically I could eat a jellyfish or even an oyster (although vegans debate it), since this capacity has not been demonstrated by them. Why would I harm others for my own pleasure/sustenance when there is an alternative, especially an alternative that is cheaper, healthier, and far more sustainable?
Yeast is a fungus by the way.
such_lettuce7970 12 points 3 years ago
Why would I harm others for my own pleasure/sustenance when there is an alternative...?
This, for me, has always been the very simple point and it pains me how many people just don't get it.
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grue 10 points 3 years ago
...expecting a vegan diet is a bit laughable. I'm surprised they offer vegetarian options at all.
"Surprised" is the wrong word, but this thread has me wondering why all prison food isn't vegan. Never mind respecting people's religious/ethical/whatever preferences; why are we wasting meat on folks who don't deserve it? Just making everything vegan would be (a) the simplest "lowest common denominator" of dietary restrictions, and more importantly (b) the cheapest/most environmentally sustainable option (disregarding subsidies to the meat/dairy industry).
(On the other hand, this is half rhetorical because I'm also remembering about a documentary I watched about Alcatraz, which mentioned that the food was intentionally good in part to stave off prison riots.)
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arc 6 points 3 years ago
Here is a sample federal prison menu. It's hard to see any day where he wouldn't have a significant choice off that list. Him claiming he only eats bread, water and peanut butter is just a play for pity and attention.
arc 5 points 3 years ago
It sounds good on paper at least. In reality it might depend a lot on the facility. It definitely demolishes the claim that SBF's only choice is is bread, water and peanut butter. He tried this same schtick when he was held in prison in the Bahamas for 10 days. Maybe it was true there but it sure as hell isn't true in the US. It's just pity party theatrics to garner some sympathy.
FriendlyBeagleDog 10 points 3 years ago
Some of the replies here are absolutely vile: if you're going to endorse locking people in cages for years if not decades and pretend that's a justified response to anything short of their being an immediate physical danger to the people around them, then the least you can do is accommodate their most basic needs and ethical positions.
Prisons are pitched to us as places of rehabilitation - somewhere to pay penance and right wrongs before returning to the community, better for having served the time. I think it's a deeply disingenuous characterisation which serves mainly to let people avoid facing up to the reality which is prison's purposeless and ultimately harmful cruelty, but it is the dominant characterisation nonetheless.
But, if we blindly accept the rehabilitation narrative, then how exactly do we expect to rehabilitate people by fracturing them psychologically? By forcing them to violate ethical commitments which are sacrosanct to them, by alienating them from their communities and forcing them to abide by a clockwork dictatorial regime without any semblance of comfort or dignity, by leaving them to rot miserably for years?
No, and no wonder prisons are factories for broken people and recidivism if this is how people think about them. Get a hold of yourselves.
Also, before anybody retreats to the flimsy position of "but prisoners shouldn't eat better than schoolchildren" or "but what about the poor" - yes, those people are also underserved, and we have resources available to improve conditions for all of them too. All that's lacking is will.
Last but not least, if you concede that you care about neither the incarcerated nor the society they come from and will return to in time - then there's also the question of why animals should suffer? If people aren't even worthy of being afforded their basic preferences, then why should the default be the option which necessitates the lifelong suffering of sentient beings on an industrial scale?
Seriously, develop a sense of empathy.
Naatan 35 points 3 years ago
I reeeaaally wish people would stop drawing a direct line between eating vegan and eating healthy.
Just cause I don’t want to eat animals that doesn’t mean I don’t want to stuff my face with good food.
Most restaurants just throw a salad at you or something.
CaptainEffort 2 points 3 years ago
You can eat nothing but Oreos and be vegan lmao. My dad literally gained weight when he became a vegan.
arc 4 points 3 years ago
Same for gluten free diets. Some people think eating gluten free is healthy (it isn't), but cram your face with GF pizza, pasta, cookies and candy and you'll be as fat as anyone else. As for health, my kids are celiac so I frequently peruse the ingredients of these products and even simple GF breads can have dozens of ingredients to give it texture, bubbles, elasticity & taste similar to regular wheat bread.
Not_Alec_Baldwin 3 points 3 years ago
TIL Oreos are vegan.
Fifteen_Two 3 points 3 years ago
Actually, I think that's exactly what it means!
Speculater 11 points 3 years ago
So are Doritos and Hershey chocolate syrup. Vegan doesn't mean healthy.
such_lettuce7970 8 points 3 years ago
Sweet chili heat flavour are, or were last time I checked.
Not_Alec_Baldwin 3 points 3 years ago
Apparently depending on your brand of vegan, some sugar doesn't make the cut. I don't know the ins and outs I literally just googled it.
Psythik 9 points 3 years ago
And unhealthy doesn't automatically mean fat, either. It's all about calories in, calories out. You can eat all the junk food you want and still be skinny, so long as you're burning more calories than you're consuming.
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commie 1 point 3 years ago
Dietary veganism differs from vegetarianism in that vegetarians may choose to consume some animal-derived foods such as milk, eggs, and honey on the grounds that animals do not need to be slaughtered to obtain these products. Veganism is motivated by a variety of reasons, including personal health, animal rights, environmentalism, and ethics.
sure sounds like it's a diet for some people
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BonfireOvDreams 11 points 3 years ago
Likely yes, but bread can have animal product in it. In any case it is not nutritionally complete.
BonfireOvDreams 10 points 3 years ago
Vitamin B12, C, D, calcium, & omega 3 will for sure not be nutritionally met.
Cleverdawny 4 points 3 years ago
They will be if you add potatoes into the mix
dulce_3t_decorum_3st 0 points 3 years ago
Is this thread full of SBF stooges or am I losing my mind? Fuck that guy.
Zozano 25 points 3 years ago
Yeah, fuck him. But also they should accommodate for his diet.
The reason we imprison people for life as opposed to executing them, is because we want to demonstrate compassion. Prison is merely isolation for the safety of the public.
His diet doesn't just affect him though, if his diet is to reduce suffering of non-human amimals by not eating meat, then he's still doing good.
Think about the flip-side of this, if in prison, vegan meals were the only option for everyone, and an inmate refused to eat until given meat.
Zozano 2 points 3 years ago
You might be, but think about the reaction to that. It's not a realistic scenario, even progressive governments would strike it down as inhumane.
It simply is the case that there is a bias towards vegans. If other convicts can eat meat, then vegans should be allowed to eat plant-based meals.
endofheatwave 4 points 3 years ago
It's being brigaded by vegans who only care about veganism, not other people, and people who think it's unethical that anyone be punished for anything they do.
You know, apologia. They're actually really disgusting
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DonnieNarco -7 points 3 years ago
😜 😆 😜 😅 😂 😆 😂 😜 😅
Stinkywinks -8 points 3 years ago
If you wanna be vegan, stay out of prison
original2 9 points 3 years ago
You haven’t been proven guilty of anything when you’re in jail. it should not be punitive. Innocent until proven guilty.
When he gets to prison, by all means go ahead (I mean I believe in rehabilitation not retribution but that’s personal); until then why not treat him like a human?
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Compactor9679 -11 points 3 years ago path: 0 2719618, hotness: undefined, score: -11, children: 1
mechoman444 -17 points 3 years ago
Bread is not vegan. It has yeast.
dragonflyteaparty 14 points 3 years ago
Yeast is a fungus.
FuglyDuck 48 points 3 years ago
Yes.
This guy stole billions of dollars in fraudulent crypto.
Not locking him up would be to admit the 2 tiered justice system exists. We all know it does. But this would admit it.
Also he did try to run. So… off to jail he goes.
girlfreddy 23 points 3 years ago
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His bail was revoked because he was contacting witnesses.
Classic example of fuck around and find out.
FuglyDuck 9 points 3 years ago
It’s called “justice” and in an ideal society it comes for everyone.
He commited billions of dollars worth of fraud. This was an intentional act. It might not “do any good”- but let me ask you, in a nation of laws, would allowing one that blatant to escape justice do any good? And what about the harm caused by signaling that Stanford-lawyer-parents means you’re immune to prosecution?
Lock him up. Give him his crappy budget-vegan-diet and let him serve as an example. (Even if only that example is to not steal from rich assholes.)
commie -6 points 3 years ago
It’s called “justice” and in an ideal society it comes for everyone.
i don't think justice is a vengeful spectre. i think it's everyone feeling that wrongs have been righted, and i don't see how locking him in a cage lets him right his wrongs.
KoboldCoterie 7 points 3 years ago
Make him work in a sweatshop 16 hours a day until he can pay back everything he stole?
kaosof 6 points 3 years ago
The main thing is to dissuade people from doing what he did, right?
Fuck around and find out and all that.
If it has any actual use for anyone (e.g. separating dangerous people from society, taking stolen property/money back, preventing them from committing more crimes etc), that's entirely unintentional.
commie 1 point 3 years ago
If it has any actual use for anyone (e.g. separating dangerous people from society, taking stolen property/money back, preventing them from committing more crimes etc), that’s entirely unintentional.
shouldn't those sorts of things be the actual goal of any "justice system"?
jmp242 2 points 3 years ago
It's interesting to me to meet someone wholly anti jail. I think our "justice system" is anything but, and at least that's partially because we have a completely muddled idea about what we're even trying to accomplish - mostly because of all these different opinions.
It seems pretty clear that our jails are "technically" just this side of cruel and unusual punishment as defined by our courts. But it's all about punishment. Of course this assumes that retribution is a useful goal, and as you point out - it probably isn't.
It's also dubious that there's any deterrence effect from jail sentences. Lots of people believe there is, but the studies I've seen don't bear that out.
It's also pretty clear that jail is expensive and just as likely to make criminals worse rather than better, so from a societal perspective, there's a really good reason to re-think our justice system.
However, given our current system is about punishment and making victims and society at large feel better because "those who fucked around found out" - I would still prefer to see this guy get his to remind people we do in fact have laws and might enforce them.
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Screwthehole 12 points 3 years ago
If you don't, aren't you just saying to the next con man that it's okay, jail is too hard so you won't actually get punished, might as well steal billions of dollars?
commie -2 points 3 years ago
i don't think he's a malicious conman trying to swindle grandma out of her retirement: i think he's a stupid guy who dug a whole way too fucking deep. and i don't think we should put people in cages for being stupid.
julietOscarEcho 2 points 3 years ago
You think a guy who graduated from MIT and got a job at fucking Jane Street is "stupid". No. His problem is the missing moral compass, he's got the smarts all day.
kinsnik 7 points 3 years ago
are you arguing that he shouldn't be sent to prison if he is found guilty? or that having him in jail until trial is a mistake?
the first one: yes, if he is found guilty, he definitely should be sent to prison. he is accused of committing fraud for billions of dollars.
for the second: yes. his bail was revoked because there was reasonable cause to believe he was attempting to tamper with witnesses
commie -7 points 3 years ago
i don't relish the idea of keeping people in cages and this guy in particular just seems stupid. i don't think there is a good case to be made that inconveniencing him for weeks months or years does us any good, especially since maintaining jails is, itself, kind of inconvenient for us.
gAlienLifeform 5 points 3 years ago
i don't relish the idea of keeping people in cages
I'm personally of the opinion that it's sadly necessary sometimes, but we definitely overuse it and it's always a tragedy when things get to the point where it's necessary.
Regardless of my opinion though, if you're interested in this you should probably check out this bit from a textbook on criminal law talking about the theoretical justifications for punishment because lots of people have thought and written lots about this and you may as well pick up the terminology they tend to use.
e; also, these are the arguments you're going to run into (pretty sure I see deterrence, retribution, and incapacitation theories in this thread)
commie -1 points 3 years ago
i think i'm ok with retribution, like a couple of brothers beating the shit out of their sister's rapist, or shunning or whatever. but i don't like the institution of prisons. we should figure something else out.
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commie -2 points 3 years ago
if you’re arguing against it there’s probably millions of people more deserving of more lenient charges than this guy.
no doubt. but this is the guy we're talking about right now so i thought it was worth pointing out that jail is bad and we need to rethink that whole thing.
thanks for using Leebra!
go to feed...
Welcome to the American corrections system, abuses like this and worse happen every day and we just don't normally hear about them because the defendants aren't famous like this one is
"For example, in 2019, guards force fed a Hindu man in ICE detention who went on hunger strike to protest the failure to provide vegan meals to him and other Hindus in detention."
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