Turbines are our friends

5 months ago by morto to c/science_memes

queerlilhayseed 153 points 5 months ago

It turns out spinning things is really useful and boiling fluids is a convenient way to spin things.

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state_electrician 76 points 5 months ago

It's still funny that so much boils down to steampunk with a fake mustache.

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rants_unnecessarily 21 points 5 months ago

Wait, it's all steampunk?

Always has been.

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f314 17 points 5 months ago

boils down to

I see what you did there!

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brisk 8 points 5 months ago

Not enough brass, though

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fluffykittycat 42 points 5 months ago

"I'll try spinning! That's a good trick!"

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queerlilhayseed 10 points 5 months ago

Wisdom from a Jedi born to bring balance to things.

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot 3 points 5 months ago

But not to be a master.

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queerlilhayseed 2 points 5 months ago

As an old Jedi Master once said, "[Masters] are what they grow beyond"

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llii 6 points 5 months ago path: 0 22959671 22960171 22961101, hotness: undefined, score: 6, children: 0
Alcoholicorn 64 points 5 months ago

Solar thermal is kinda obsolete I thought, now China is churning out PVs for pennies.

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freebee 22 points 5 months ago

But t solar boiler can still be useful in some cases. Where heated water in "solar" on the roof is used immediately for shower etc.

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Redjard 12 points 5 months ago

Modern solar into a modern heat pump is gonna be more efficient than heating water. It's also more versatile and convenient, cause it maintains that efficiency when you pull power from the grid at night. And of course lets you use the power for other purposes.

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freebee 6 points 5 months ago

I agree. But installing a waterboiler on a roof right above a shower is a lot simpler and probably still cheaper, for example in a camping hut situation, so off grid

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Redjard 0 points 5 months ago

Lots of huts probably have an ac or heater. This could all be the same device, at which point it'd definitely be easier than running the pipes for water and maintaining pumps and a dedicated tank.
Don't see a reason you couldn't have a simple ac window unit that also has a warm water port, which you plug a single cable into going straight to your pannels on the roof.

Edit: And once batteries are more affordable (or if you have a few grand to burn) you can then plug in a battery pack conveniently on the indoors side of your window unit.
The indoors side can just have a few regular outlets you can extension cord around to where you need them.

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oneser 13 points 5 months ago

I mean it seems the more complex solution in deployment for sure, but its design could still have use in low heat industrial uses (sub 250°C, e.g. food prep, textile, sanitation etc.) where it is used heat -> heat rather than heat -> electricity -> heat. Maybe these replace thermal collectors eventually.

But that is not the point of this meme at all, just my thoughts.

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rumschlumpel 7 points 5 months ago

IDK, heat pumps are basically multiplying the electricity they use.

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zout 4 points 5 months ago

Only with small temperature differences, the higher the difference the lower the COP.

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mnemonicmonkeys 2 points 5 months ago

You need a giant asterisk there. That "small temperature difference" is -40° to 120°F

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megopie 12 points 5 months ago

Solar thermal has some distinct advantages when you start talking about really big instillations. Especially when considering power storage, molten salt systems can store heat and allow the generators to keep working even at night. Much cheaper than batteries at very large scales.

Thermal solar systems are generally very efficient when the goal is heating something, not just generating power. So say, you want to run an ammonia plant without burning natural gas, or if you want to melt down metals for recycling. There are so many industrial applications where it’s a better way of doing it than using an electric heating element.

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VibeSurgeon 3 points 5 months ago

For heating I'd guess it can still be relevant. As a means of producing electricity though? Yeah

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oppy1984 40 points 5 months ago

It all boils down to steam....

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megopie 39 points 5 months ago

I really like the concentrated solar systems that use molten salt, where rather than heating water directly, molten salt is heated and stored In large insulated tanks and tapped off to a heat exchanger to run the turbines, thus allowing power generation to match demand and continue at a constant rate even when light level very (such as at night).

One interesting idea is to use a concentrated solar system to run an Einstein–Szilard refrigerator, or some other absorption refrigerator cycle.

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rothaine 4 points 5 months ago

What are the tanks made of? "Molten salt" sounds like it would fuck up most materials

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djdarren 9 points 5 months ago

Nokia 3310s.

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OldManWithACane 3 points 5 months ago

If you're gonna build it, you might as well over-build it I guess...

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megopie 7 points 5 months ago

Various common steels with a bunch of insulation around it usually, sometimes with a thin coating. The potassium/sodium/calcium nitrate mixes that are used with concentrated solar systems operating in range between 200 C and 600 C. So like, yah you don’t want to touch it, but it’s not gonna do much to steel. It can be somewhat corrosive, but, this is fairly easily mitigated by design.

Molten salt for heat transfer and thermal storage is a pretty mature technology that goes way back before we started using it in concentrated solar systems.

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how_we_burned 3 points 5 months ago

Molten salt for heat transfer and thermal storage is a pretty mature technology that goes way back before we started using it in concentrated solar systems.

Isn't the core problem with anything that uses molten salt is that when the heat sauce source (thanks autocorrect, really, the context in that sentence means you should suggest "sauce"?) fails you just end up with a huge lump of solid salts that clog every part of your system?

The Russian Alfa class had a similar problem due their use of lead-bismuth heated into a liquid.

When they lost power for whatever they'd essentially end up being written off as reheating them was incredibly difficult and very tricky.

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megopie 1 point 5 months ago

molten salt systems can be fail safe by having the coolant drain from parts of the system that can’t operate with solidified salt in them, even if they do, you can sends someone with a heating element to remelt the system at critical points before turning it on. It’s not like water where the coolant will physically expand and burst things when it freezes, water’s actually pretty weird in that regard, most things take up less volume when they freeze.

I don’t know why they couldn’t do the same for an alpha class, but I suspect it’s because running the reactor without coolant in it would have caused a melt down, and if any coolant was left inside it when turned off, the control rods would have been frozen in place preventing it from being restarted. Perhaps in such a tightly sealed system, the shrinkage caused by cooling could have caused things to break as well.

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I_am_10_squirrels 2 points 5 months ago

As a first guess, I would use glass fused to steel tanks. I would need to do a detailed look at material compatibility, talk to vendors, and run some bench scale studies before I moved forward with anything.

Source: am licensed engineer

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CapuccinoCoretto 24 points 5 months ago

Punches below the belt. Right in the photovoltaics.

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humanspiral 22 points 5 months ago

This is old technology that is more expensive/complicated/maintenance-ey than PV. An economic falacy is that if you have oil/fossils you should use that instead of solar. It's always better to use cheapest energy. Export the fossils, import solar. It is more jobs to have solar as well, and in fact most of the deployment costs are local work/materials (wiring/support structures).

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 4 points 5 months ago

now hear me out. what if we just boiled water in it. why do we have to get all fucky with it.

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comrade19 2 points 5 months ago

The ultimate bird bath

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 1 point 5 months ago

Right? Think of all the pigeons we could flash fry

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Bombastic 20 points 5 months ago

They can't keep getting away with this!!

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AdolfSchmitler 13 points 5 months ago

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johnefrancis 19 points 5 months ago

why are there 2 people in suits?

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Noodle07 14 points 5 months ago

Mandatory clothing in our utopian solarpunk society of course

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot 12 points 5 months ago

The third guy was busy that day.

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NutWrench 10 points 5 months ago

Human sacrifices to the Turbine Gods.

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lightnsfw 5 points 5 months ago

Have we even tried powering our turbines with CEO blood?

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Soup 9 points 5 months ago

Stock assets to show scale, probably.

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA 6 points 5 months ago

gotta dress up to visit the machine god

don't wanna insult the machine god with my shabby shoes. wear my fancy shoes.

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PolarKraken 2 points 5 months ago

Your machine god likes fancy shoes 😂 Embarrassing.

The generic suits depicted are sacrificial "meat candles". They do what they sound like, and everyone knows shoes just kinda get in the way and slow things down. Simple as. Power don't flow the same without a few of these suits startin to sizzle just right, oughta have yer meat candles primed before ya start 'er up.

Fancy shoes! The things ya read on the Internet, by golly.

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OldChicoAle 5 points 5 months ago

Someone needs to take credit for the work of engineers and manual laborers.

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m3t00 3 points 5 months ago

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johnefrancis 2 points 5 months ago

even the Mormons are solar now?

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AffineConnection 2 points 5 months ago

men in black

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village604 18 points 5 months ago

I wonder if we could kill 2 birds with one stone. Have parabolic solar panels that reflect unabsorbed light to boil water.

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OwOarchist 14 points 5 months ago

It would be a less efficient boiler (because the 'mirrors' would be much less reflective), and much more expensive (because solar panels -- especially custom-made curved ones -- are much more expensive than mirrors).

Overall, I suppose maybe you could come out ahead if you used very efficient solar panels for it, and that would let you generate slightly more watts per surface area used...

But we really don't need to optimize for surface area in 99% of cases. Almost everywhere solar power is used, space to install panels is abundant, and it would be much cheaper and more effective to just put one or the other of these solar collection methods over a slightly wider area if you want increased production. (And even then, most of the cases where production-per-surface-area is very important are on solar-powered vehicles, and these parabolic sun-tracking mirrors are impractical for use on a moving vehicle.)

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Alcoholicorn 10 points 5 months ago path: 0 22959721 22959906, hotness: undefined, score: 10, children: 0
Honytawk 2 points 5 months ago

You'd just have 2 inefficient power generators

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rumba 2 points 5 months ago

How about running water through the back side of the panels to keep them cool, transfer the heat into a heat battery (sand) then us that to assist your hot water heater.

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village604 2 points 5 months ago

Either that or use it for temperature differential power generation.

Although I guess you could use the power generated by the panels to run a heat pump to boil the water used for cooling too.

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rumba 1 point 5 months ago

Right on. and PV get's less efficient when it gets hot, I'm unsure if there's enough waste heat to do anything useful. but there is at least a marginally good reason to cool them.

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fubarx 18 points 5 months ago

Everybody with a college course in Thermodynamics.

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OwOarchist 14 points 5 months ago

At least hydro and wind power are still safe from the boiling water...

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morto 2 points 5 months ago

Still safe so far

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bstix 1 point 5 months ago

Hydro is the OG boiled water.

Sun heats water. Water evaporates. Go up high. Falls down. Turn turbine.

Wind power is a side effect of the same process happening on a rotating globe.

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OwOarchist 1 point 5 months ago

Water evaporates.

Evaporation =/= boiling.

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panda_abyss 10 points 5 months ago

With all the solar mirrors, won't we overhear the sun shooting all that light back?

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chromeleon 12 points 5 months ago

there's a silencer on its gun, so we probably won't hear much.

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BeatTakeshi 9 points 5 months ago path: 0 22971687, hotness: undefined, score: 9, children: 0
A_Chilean_Cyborg 8 points 5 months ago

Yes, Everything, always turns back to mechanical enginnering.

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Quill7513 5 points 5 months ago

carcinization but for steam engines instead of crabs

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EmptyAsparagus 8 points 5 months ago

guys its literally in fallout, so its canon.

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Skullgrid 8 points 5 months ago path: 0 22965216 22966022, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 1
EmptyAsparagus 2 points 5 months ago

nice, thanks!

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ryannathans 6 points 5 months ago

Would solar boilers be more efficient than PV?

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marcos 11 points 5 months ago

No, neither will it be cheaper.

People stopped building those some years ago.

(But those incredibly expensive concentrators with a single tower are more efficient. Nobody is building those anymore either.)

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ryannathans 5 points 5 months ago

I assume not efficient enough to justify cost

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marcos 4 points 5 months ago

Turns out that sunlight is very cheap. You need a lot of efficiency to justify any extra cost.

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mnemonicmonkeys 3 points 5 months ago

Plus, you get a lot of lag when heating water with concentrated solar. Overnight your water cools down, so you need time to get it back to boiling temperature before it can generate any power. That lag gets worse during winter and cloudy days

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Damage 3 points 5 months ago

PV panels have very low maintenance needs

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rumba 2 points 5 months ago

They used to be cheaper. Solar is bananas cheap now

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marcos 2 points 5 months ago

Generating electricity by boiling water used to be the cheapest option, but nowadays it's a bottleneck that itself is way more expensive than the alternatives that people actually build.

It only got cheaper with time, though. It's the alternatives (PV, wind, batteries, gas) that improved a crazy amount.

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ilinamorato 2 points 5 months ago

Another thread I read said that photovoltaics have an efficiency of around 45%, while turbines are somewhere in the 40% range. Source: I dunno.

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ryannathans 3 points 5 months ago

PVs max out around 28%

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MonkderVierte 1 point 5 months ago

Turbines are over 90% efficient.

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zout 4 points 5 months ago

Traditional Rankine cycles with a boiler, a turbine and a condenser have efficiencies lower than 40%, I've never seen one higher than 30%.

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nutsack 4 points 5 months ago

ah yes the bird blaster

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pedz 6 points 5 months ago

I know this is a meme community but I was curious about this. It seems some birds do get burned, but not blasted. It varies a lot depending on the installation and it can also be mitigated. Also, the amount of birds dying from this is significantly lower than just the amount of birds hitting windows. For the benefit of other curious people, I'll try to condense the relevant information from wikipedia and the sources.

In more general terms, a 2016 preliminary study assessed that the annual bird mortality per MW of installed power was similar between U.S. concentrated solar power plants and wind power plants, and higher for fossil fuel power plants.

How it was calculated for fossil fuel

Sovacool estimated avian mortality from fossil fuel power plants across the United States as a result of collision with infrastructure, electrocutions, pollution and contamination, and climate change. In addition, Sovacool estimated climate change-induced avian mortality (in terms of habitat loss and changes in migration) predicted to be the result of fossil fuel power plant operations.

A preliminary assessment of avian mortality at utility-scale solar energy facilities in the United States: https://www.sciencedirect.com/...

Review of Avian Mortality Studies at Concentrating Solar Power Plants: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1364837

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sexy_peach 4 points 5 months ago

wait these could be built with co2 turbines as well, right??

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megopie 8 points 5 months ago

Yes, super critical CO2 turbines can work in such a system. As can sterling engines. Or thermoelectric solid state couples.

Any system that uses a temperature differential to generate power can be used. It’s just a matter of what you care about in a given situation. Upfront cost, mechanical reliability, noise/vibration, and availability of needed components play in to what makes the most sense.

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DarkSpectrum 3 points 5 months ago

heat transfer fluid is circulated

solar battery pumps?

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Aeao 2 points 5 months ago

Spaceman meme

“It’s just boiling water?”

“Always has been”

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