Work slop! Just love people using LLMs to hand the heavy lifting over to me.
tempest 36 points 13 days ago
Just complete the AI slop trough and copy and paste the ticket back into Claude to fix and open an MR and then have Claude review it and merge and then when there is a bug repeat the process.
I honestly don't know what people are thinking, both employees and employers when people start copy pasting LLM shit. Why do I need you if all you are is a glorified macro? I strongly suspect the human is there to be the fall guy when the LLM invariably does something really stupid.
Lili_Thana 33 points 13 days ago
path: 0 26071969 26073209 26073298, hotness: undefined, score: 33, children: 4
Witchfire 5 points 13 days ago
Tom still used AI — and that's fine. Encouraged, even ... This is kinda only half serious. AI is great — use it all day. Just don't be a pipe. 🥩
That site is still promoting AI. So close, so damn close
ZILtoid1991 1 point 10 days ago
Even worse is, many such "rational" use of AI often involves more AI usage than just posting slop.
partofthevoice 4 points 12 days ago
Imagine all the recursive meat proxies we have in the industry right now, like an infinite redirect loop with MITM to do the networking.
kibiz0r 15 points 13 days ago
I strongly suspect the human is there to be the fall guy when the LLM invariably does something really stupid.
This has a term, actually! “Accountability sink”.
Yes, like a heatsink in a computer, your job is to soak up all the damaging and unwanted aspects of what the “real” and “valuable” main components decide to do, so that consequences never reach any decision-makers.
Fun!
StabbingSky 4 points 13 days ago
Decision makers are often set up as the "fall guy", but the consequences are getting a huge severance package and an even more lucrative c-suite position at another company.
Honestly, until recently the PotUS was a fall guy for most of congress's shit
jj4211 31 points 13 days ago
My god, had someone send in a merge request with utter garbage, with Claude describing some nonsensical "root cause" as to why a function didn't work. Claude made two changes:
- If the current scheme failed, use an entirely different scheme it claimed the software supports that does not work and was never documented as a way to work.
- If that scheme fails, swallow the error and don't report the problem, leaving the problem silently in place but out of the user's view at least for a short while. This is actually the change that 'fixed' the problem.
So I needed to know the debug data for what really went wrong, but the submitter got all pissy and said Claude already sorted it out and why can't I just accept their slop merge request as-is, refusing to believe that all it did was catch and silently drop any and all errors associated with the code instead of fixing it. Wouldn't run the procedure I stated would show them they had messed up data as a result of their 'fix'.
partofthevoice 3 points 12 days ago
I like to tell them, “well my Claude said this.”
You can just point out the issues to Claude and get it to spew out AI slop on how those issues are the worst thing in the world, horrible bad bugs.
Fighting fire with fire. Except you’re actually trying, which means you can’t really loose.
auzy1 4 points 12 days ago
In their defence, the one thing AI does do well is Code review. But, it makes too many absolutely sh** assumptions when helping customers troubleshooting.
I feel the problem is that because its a paid tool, it's not a good look if they simply acknowledge "we're guessing, and its a crap guess"
raman_klogius 17 points 13 days ago
The fabled meat proxies.
meme_historian 10 points 13 days ago
Only one step away from becoming a reverse centaur
criss_cross 6 points 13 days ago
I don’t even get tickets. I get tagged into a slack thread full of slop trying to guess why I am here and what I’m supposed to do.
jaybone 6 points 13 days ago
I have narrowed the containment of the isolation.
Now I’m verifying the resolution path of the indicators.
Permission to accumulate the resolution of the transformation.
I know what all of those words mean individually…
laurelraven 3 points 12 days ago
Honestly, this isn't even an AI issue, people have been doing that long before AI became a thing
Getting a ticket "I need you to change blah" and the request is either nonsense or "fixes" something unrelated to what the user is actually experiencing, but they're so sure they know
This weirdly is way worse when you support technical teams, it makes it pretty clear how much Dunning Kruger is going around in IT... But yeah, AI is making it so much worse
auzy1 2 points 12 days ago
When I was selling Apple gear, there was a lady who told another customer in front of me as I was talking to them, that Mac's can't get viruses lol
I have noticed though, that yeah.. The same overconfident donkeys that exist everywhere else, are now in IT telling IT people that their toddlerbot is smart
vault42_eu 1 point 12 days ago
*was given
Holytimes 0 points 12 days ago
At least Claude is half right half the time unlike normal users who just say it broke fix it and refuse to fucking elaborate.
I'll take the slop machines bullshit over normal users fucking nonsense.
At least I cant be mad the machine isn't using fucking critical thinking.
ILikeBoobies 104 points 13 days ago
Vibe coders not understanding their code because they didn't write it.
Me not understanding my code because I wrote it a month ago.
oatscoop 9 points 13 days ago
My workflow is :
Step one: write down a bunch of nonsense, massive block comments of old code in case the new code is worse, and cludges in one massive file.
Step two: rewrite the whole thing: breaking it down into classes so it's readable and maintainable ...
Step 3: come back later and wonder where the hell anything is. Go to step 1
partofthevoice 5 points 12 days ago
Step 4: realize the shit was simpler and better without the classes.
oatscoop 2 points 11 days ago
I do a lot of fairly complex data processing that benefits from any abstraction I can get.
E.g. "Take these 50,000 data points, identify and apply the best set of filters for each sections, then produce the best curve fit for each section." It's massively complex and (hilariously) produces multiple equally massive data sets while working -- acceleration and velocity plots, for example.
MangoCats 2 points 9 days ago
In the early 90s I coded up a fairly massive data analysis suite entirely in C.
Around 1997 I translated it to C++ - the resulting data analysis ran at 1/2 the speed of the C code, but was 300% faster to modify, expand and maintain. And processor speeds were doubling every 9 months anyway.
drexy_rexy 4 points 12 days ago
Vibe coders not understanding their code because they didn’t write it.
Me not understanding my code because I wrote it a month ago.
...we are not the same :P
UFODivebomb 3 points 11 days ago
"huh. I wonder how this works? I'll check with the original dev"
Checks git blame
"Well fuck..."
MangoCats 1 point 9 days ago
Me, checking the config file blame for who put in that one bad line...
blame: you wrote the entire config file across the space of 2 months a few lines per commit - except that one bad line that somebody else put in...
MonkderVierte 30 points 13 days ago
Ah, actually, caffeine can be really contra-productive for autistic people.
rockSlayer 36 points 13 days ago
I was only ever observed to have autism, but I highly suspect that I'm audhd. What kind of hell is this where caffeine can help my ADHD focus but harms my autistic focus
joulethief 14 points 13 days ago
If it's any consolation, I'm AuDHD myself (ADHD diagnosed first) and I would have never made it this far without copius amounts of caffeine.
Edit: To expand on this, my autistic tastebuds have rejected the taste of coffee until I was like 21. Imagine the astonishment following my first cup when I was bustling around actually getting things done for once.
SlurpingPus 2 points 13 days ago
I seem to have developed some kind of ADHD in adulthood, while also avoiding caffeine in recent years. Now, if I drink two cups of coffee, I come to four fours later with fifty new tabs in the browser, the system deeply in swap, two new projects started and abandoned, and nothing actually done. If I'm lucky, some system reconfiguration that I've been putting off for months, will finally be made.
blazeknave 19 points 13 days ago
What about us caffeinated autistic vibe coders? Slop production through the roof bb!
ZILtoid1991 10 points 12 days ago
They exist, but I'd like to pretend they don't.
blazeknave 1 point 10 days ago
You're welcome.. I'm the reason you're shooting your printer
webghost0101 6 points 13 days ago
I put together a new modpack for minecraft this year and from that i can verify that this comment definitely checks out.
webghost0101 4 points 12 days ago
Its not a public pack sorry But the changelogs for some mods speak for themselves no human does 20 seperate release updates in a day and comments every sentence with an emoticon
blazeknave 1 point 10 days ago
Feeling seen or (targeted)
When the daily slack goes out that says GTM repo produced 100+ PRs vs Eng's 4, bc my markdown process docs were updated every fucking turn ...
raman_klogius 12 points 13 days ago
Just caffeine? I thought a sizeable portion of yinz are on adderrrall.
StabbingSky 9 points 13 days ago
ADHD is wildly common in the field. Everyone in my infosec department has it, which is amazing because we all get the struggle.
ZILtoid1991 7 points 13 days ago
Some of us have to rawdog it, due to the meth myth.
ZILtoid1991 8 points 13 days ago
That ADHD meds are just fancy meth, so we have to rigorously select who gets them.
partofthevoice 4 points 12 days ago
ADHD meds, meaning adderall in particular, are analogous of methamphetamine. That truth is blown so far out of proportion, it’s not even funny. By methylating the molecule, they increase its fat solubility dramatically. This makes it more potent, by far.
janus2 40 points 13 days ago
from what I've heard from my software engineer friends, a decent coder with standard knowledge of CS and the language they're using will always write better (more optimized, more debuggable, etc.) code than currently available LLMs
even if the "fraction" is closer to 1 than 0, the heavy lifting here is done by "look what they need." vibe coders need gigantic climate destroying machines to write code that isn't as good as what an educated programmer writes running on a burrito and coffee
makeshift0546 14 points 13 days ago
Depends on your domain. Devops is mostly a solved problem terraform is well documented and most infra follows a far more simple pattern. It’s not replacing engineers but if you aren’t a moron it can be a 5x type tool. It is extremely good diagnosing issues, parsing logs, and frankly writing well formed TF. It’s garbage at architecture and every once in a while it’ll absolutely send you a wtf were you thinking type pr. But it’s 80% good with a 20x in raw velocity.
Our team has fixed up a lot of shitty technical debt, increased automation and our deterministic scripts and workflows, and increased usable test coverage on $30/mo copilot plans.
jj4211 8 points 13 days ago
The big problem is that sometimes it's "good" at diagnosing issues and sometimes it's very bad and in both cases it looks the same if you don't have a way to know yourself.
I've seen some of the fodder people consider 'well formed playbooks' and it's also a bit of a crapshoot there. It can speed up some tedium, but so many users get in over their heads.
Today had a junior proudly provide an untested playbook that just did everything wrong and even if it did what it purported to do, it would have been hard coded to certain things that are not what we want to do.
BooBees 6 points 13 days ago
I’m tempted to try to calculate how much energy has been used to produce the currently and previously available library of anime popular amongst coders, because that’s a necessary resource, along with various energy drinks and snackies
ArsonButCute 10 points 12 days ago
I used to write a ton of code while caffeinated.
Now I write less, better code since quitting caffeine.
There was a brief period where I was incapable of doing anything at all between the state of high caffeination and no caffeination.
master_disguise32 1 point 12 days ago
So u were always high, what coding makes u do
ArsonButCute 2 points 12 days ago
Yeah, always high. I quit weed and caffeine at the same time. Quit alcohol 7 months ago. Nicotine a year ago. I'm completely sober for the first time in 13 years as of a few months ago. It wasn't the code's fault. It was depression. TBH the coding was a way to gain some control over my life. It gave me reasons to dive deeper into my addictions though.
ArsonButCute 2 points 12 days ago
I moved to half caff for a few weeks, then to decaf. I still have a cup of coffee every morning as part of my routine. The headaches were brutal on both changes, and I regret not taking longer to do so.
It began when I noticed caffeine pouches being sold at a gas station. Not pills, which feel like a drug, pouches, just like the Zyn pouches. The difference is caffeine can be sold to minors. I realized when I saw them that caffeine is simply another insidious drug being peddled to the masses to keep us locked in addictions, feeding the machine with our hard earned money.
You do not need the stimulant. You do not need the pacifier. You will not enjoy going without, until you learn how much better you feel without.
CptEnder 10 points 12 days ago
Be me AudADHD locking the fuck in doing 10 hours of work in 2 hours when the legal meth kicks in. But it's at 11:37pm and sometimes it's wikiholes on GBU stabilizer fin evolutions instead of work.
And then I waste the rest of the next 2 days.
BilboBargains 8 points 13 days ago
Lisdexamfetamine+caffeine, let's gooooooo
joulethief 7 points 13 days ago
Hands shaking but mind is going brrrr
Flower 6 points 13 days ago
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, The shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Duke_Nukem_1990 1 point 12 days ago
Lisdex in the morning and then some caffeine around 2pm to buff out the curve.
jubilationtcornpone 1 point 13 days ago
Help! I can no longer code. It feels like there's an anvil on my chest.
black0ut 5 points 12 days ago
Back when I was studying, I had a final exam on my last year (so basically one of the most important exams in my career) that was about PHP. It was 3h, and we had to complete a theory part and then code a bunch of stuff.
I attended that exam while completely drunk. So much so that I don't remember anything about it. Somehow I didn't get kicked out.
I genuinely expected to fail it, and instead I got my best grade up to that point, an 8/10.
MrScottyTay 4 points 12 days ago
Replace/append with medicated ADHD people
programmerlexi 3 points 13 days ago
i don't even need caffeine to write code (of varying quality) at high speeds.
cows_are_underrated 1 point 12 days ago
varying quality
And thats where you can See if you had caffeine or not /s
grillgamesh 2 points 13 days ago
I could either take several tedious hours to write out several thousand regex patterns by hand to automatically recognize differing formats of notation for this thing I'm doing IRL......
or I could have an LLM do it in a few seconds, and it'll get 99.99% of the cases, missing maybe one case every hundred thousand...
take your guess as to which option I chose.
LLMs are a tool. I use it as such.
MonkderVierte 18 points 13 days ago
Isn't this a case where regex may be the worse choice?
OfCourseNot 8 points 13 days ago
write out several thousand regex patterns
Oh my! This thing is more likely to gain sentience than any llm.
grillgamesh 1 point 13 days ago
it is a truly absurd number, simply due to the inane BS variations on terminology and notation.
It might have been more reasonable to train a local LLM on this material and then just query -that-..... but hey 30ish seconds of claude's free tier usage; and i've got a script that's ~99.99% as good as a human in terms of pattern recognition. Pretty neat when you think about it.
OfCourseNot 2 points 13 days ago
And 'truly absurd number' might still be a bit of an understatement here. Saying that Claude can generate several thousand regexes for you is not really a selling point for llms in my book.
On the other hand. Have you tried running them on the bible or something like that? I bet it finds it talks about ww2, 9-11, the nintendo wii, and shit...
mobyduck648 5 points 13 days ago
Can't be worse than when I was an intern, the product was literally based around parsing arbitrary HTML with regex and not even decent regex, POSIX regex from like the '80s for reasons known only unto the programming gods.
grillgamesh 3 points 13 days ago
sweet merciful torvalds, that must have sucked.
Glad you made it out of that hellhole.
mobyduck648 4 points 13 days ago
Cheers, me too! Was educational as an intern to say the least. I think the firm went belly-up a few years later.
ZILtoid1991 3 points 13 days ago
When I wrote my numerical parser, people told me to use regexes to detect what kind of numerical value is being parsed. I just did it in one go. Only regex-like checking is for ISO datetime values.
grillgamesh 0 points 13 days ago
regex is computationally pretty cheap, from what I've read; due to something about it being a simple AND gate or something..... . IDR, and to be honest it doesn't really matter in the era of 16-core/32thread 5GHz processors.... but when you just want it to work..... it does "just work". /shrug.
cows_are_underrated 3 points 12 days ago
Saying that performance doesnt matter anymore is what brought us AAA games running at 20fps on the most powerfull Consumer Hardware available at the time (yes, Im talling about you Jedi Survivor)
grillgamesh 1 point 13 days ago
Not really. There will only ever be about a hundred people who ever use this tool, and it's really just a massive timesaver that keeps people from needing to open a smorgasbord of files to get a few tidbits from each file; then collate it into one doc....
If I get ~99.99% of all the information, and one hundred people use this, odds are, nobody will ever see the .01% edge case of missed info. and even if it does happen, it's not like it's obsfucated information in each file, it's just a pain to open a hundred files and wait for them all to load at once through the disk-heavy GUI application we have to use.
simpler to just read via the regex patterns, and then put it out into the terminal for the info needed.
NotSteve_ 10 points 13 days ago
or I could have an LLM do it in a few seconds, and it'll get 99.99% of the cases, missing maybe one case every hundred thousand...
Even if the LLM does things perfectly 100% of the time, how do you expect to maintain your skills if you offload all of your work onto a chatbot? What happens when you start offloading more and more until you're not actually doing anything except typing in prompts?
grillgamesh 0 points 13 days ago
My skillset is geared towards meatsacks and things that go boom. LLMs have been a massive boon to the 1% of my job that needs a code monkey.
As long as people still talk to each other, and things need exploding, I'll have a job. Heck, if we somehow get to a point where money isnt needed, I'd still do what I do simply 'cuz I like it.
jj4211 4 points 13 days ago
Frankly, your use case sounds like something has gone horribly wrong from the outset. If something needs several thousand regex patterns, then something is very very wrong, and there's zero chance you have a comprehensive solution as it stands. Either trying to use regex for a use case that some natively AI approach might actually be warranted for, or regex is being used poorly and each one is too limited, or some other approach entirely is warranted.
grillgamesh 1 point 13 days ago
well, it works, and i don't need to touch it.
remaking what is already working would cost more time.
makeshift0546 2 points 13 days ago
Lots of folks here create absurdly high expectations that most coders don’t meet. They are out there but they ain’t average. Getting it 80% correct with good human reviews to catch the trash and using it to figure out what’s breaking quickly vs tracking down logs has been great for our team. I laugh at some of the garbage it spits out and the dumb way you can see shit like, ‘I have to be honest I did zero testing’.
mobyduck648 2 points 13 days ago
Yeah I'm not a fan of slop merchants and PRs the size of battleships but anyone solving merge conflicts by hand because they hate LLMs is being a tad masochistic in my opinion. I'm in two minds about how much coding itself ought to be automated, but I'm a strong advocate of automating the tedious donkey work we'd absolutely have got rid of years ago some other way if possible.
It's also good for avoiding tarpits, sometimes I literally don't want to learn something because it's too expensive relative to the value of retaining it. I would rather crawl over a mile of broken glass and hot coals than learn the detailed ins and outs of WSDL just to support a legacy feature which is firmly in the crosshairs of my deprecation gun, to use a totally neutral and not driven by personal bitterness example.
iLigator -20 points 13 days ago
Even though i hate ai and what it has done to my profession i can confidently say that you are in denial and this is pure cope. Agents can already write much more organized code than any developer in my company. "Knowledge" and "architecture" won't save anyone since llms already have plenty of that. We became a meat proxy and it spreads in other professions too. What a shame.
Warl0k3 28 points 13 days ago
You know I keep seeing this, and I keep trying AI, and my experience really just does not track with the grandiose claims y'all AI fans (with 2 comment accounts that have been dormant for six months...) keep making. Maybe you're some canned code shop with crap devs, but even then I'm real curious what the use case is where AI agents can take over from real devs like you're claiming. Sounds like marketing hype more than anything.
percent -2 points 13 days ago
I keep trying AI
When you try AI, how do to do it? And do you try for hours? Days? Weeks?
There's a learning curve to use these tools productively, and they often feel unproductive early on while building your proficiency.
I think the learning curve is often misunderstood or underestimated, possibly because we interface with these tools using natural language. We overestimate how "easy" it "should" be. (This was my own experience anyway, when I first started learning to use AI)
Warl0k3 8 points 13 days ago
I know there's a temptation to call "skill issue" when you see anecdotal evidence that runs counter to your own experience, but I can say with some degree of professional certainty and a smidge of personal snark that no, I in fact do know what I'm doing. These tools have their uses, but their general applicability is vastly overstated (if I were the kind of cynical person that enjoyed being right, I would say intentionally overstated in an effort to attain profitability on bootstraps made of hype). And I wanna clarify that I do indeed use some AI tools (ex: security checkers) with regularity. They do absolutely have worth - they just don't have trillions of dollars worth... of worth. Ahem.
The hype-doomer thing that some people have about this, oh woe it's going to destroy an entire conceptual industry, that just isn't what's happening, but it's very much what the advertising would like you to believe it's doing.
iLigator -7 points 13 days ago
You may try to attack my character by implying a bot or throwaway account but my point stands and all metrics agree with what i said. I literally used the newest model of a certain company (not naming them) and the agent finished a weeks work in 2 sessions. It even found lib incompatibilities and a weird bug in codebase without even prompting for that. The models became better but the harness got really good now. Your experience may be a skill issue, your prompts may suck or even your codebase might be too big, or cope, either way we are screwed, please don't give a false hope by moving the goalpost each time a llm evolves further, it's better for programmers to swim with the wave and evolve with the profession than be stuck in denial and becone obsolete.
Warl0k3 11 points 13 days ago
"But have you considered that it might not be a fundamental misrepresentation of the capabilities of our system that's been borne out repeatedly in real-world testing, but instead a skill issue?"
boonhet -1 points 13 days ago
We didn't even have proper harnesses 3 years ago. Claude Code which more or less kicked everything off is under 2 years old, before that you would've had to use Cursor or something. And we now have local models better than the frontier ones of 3 years ago if you have a good graphics card or an SoC with lots of shared memory. The cheapo Chinese models now beat the super expensive American ones from just a few months ago.
Whole thing is changing so fast if you haven't tried it in a few months, you don't really know what it entails now.
iLigator -5 points 13 days ago
GPT 3.0 couldn't create gta 6 using a single prompt therefore all future models are bad. /s Maybe get out of your cave and test it yourself instead of coping in denial.
FabledAepitaph -1 points 13 days ago
You basically did tho lol
iLigator -3 points 13 days ago
Please give me 1 thing that a mid developer can create but the latest model agents can't. There is coping and there's delusion, i think you're heading towards the second.
FabledAepitaph 4 points 13 days ago
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, but I could be wrong. I work in a non-programming technical field and I am also impressed and concerned by the progress the models have made over the last few years, especially in terms of being able to "do my job".
Like the other guy was saying, there are still issues with its implementations, and the second you begin to think it's perfect or immutable, you notice issues that would have been show stoppers if they made it through. And at the end of the day, at least for what I do, if nobody is here to press the buttons, the AI will never be able to do its thing to begin with.
I also personally predict that the cost of tokens and utilizing AI services will eventually become overly expensive and encumbered, as does everything under capitalism. Name one thing that hasn't gotten shittier and more expensive overall. The AI companies haven't even begun to enter their enshittification stage yet.
I maintain that AI in its current form will NOT be able to produce truly novel thought or original work, as it can only put together the Legos that it already has ingested. Perhaps grunt work programming will require less manpower, but cutting-edge developments are still beyond the LLM's grasp at the moment.
Anyways, I welcome other opinions
iLigator -2 points 13 days ago
Software development is by far the most affected profession. Every time a new model gets released another part of my occupation can be done by it. People are moving the goalpost to focus on every mistake the llm makes to cope and fool themselves they are still not expendable and better than the llms. With enough confidence i can say that the vast majority of programmers are not.
iLigator -1 points 13 days ago
Honestly, have you used an agent ? Comments like your make me think your llm usage consists of copy paste to "chat" instead of prompting an agent. That or all haters are Jake Wharton level and actually produce better code manually fast enough.
jj4211 9 points 13 days ago
I have both used agents and have been the "victim" of heavy agent users.
If you can provide an utterly well bounded problem with perfectly verifiable criteria for it to retry against until the tests pass and the tests are full and valid for the use case, it can work. Similarly, if your code's reality is forgiving and flexible, and a 'close enough' result is good enough to get the human software user in the right ball park, you might be able to extract decent behavior.
However, if there is a means by which the answer can 'look correct' yet be wrong in the real world and the real world scenarios require accuracy and precision, there's huge gaps.
Especially if the agents control the coding and the test case generation, seen plenty of times where it talked itself out of a test case that was failing when the test case was in fact correctly showing a flaw.
iLigator 1 point 13 days ago
That's actually my biggest issue with it, it often tries to get out of scope and touch something it shouldn't. But thats a low bar for an entire profession to exist. I wish llms never happened, ruined our field and I'm upset about that. I honestly cannot imagine a CS field it wont disrupt.
programmer_humor
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Welcome to Programmer Humor!
This is a place where you can post jokes, memes, humor, etc. related to programming!
For sharing awful code theres also Programming Horror.
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programmer_humor
@programming.dev
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7101
Welcome to Programmer Humor!
This is a place where you can post jokes, memes, humor, etc. related to programming!
For sharing awful code theres also Programming Horror.
Rules
- Keep content in english
- No advertisements
- Posts must be related to programming or programmer topics
- If the mod doesn't find it funny, you're banned. Ha-ha!... For real: do not use the community for "statements". There are other places for such content. Keep it chill and funny.
go to feed...
I'm going to lose my mind if I get any more support tickets where someone has cut and pasted the output from Claude instead of telling me what the problem actually was.
My job has basically turned into guessing what bad info Claude has given
save