Would it be ethical to ask death-seeking people to go work in dangerous situations?

12 days ago by Cyril Strobe to c/asklemmy

To be clear, I’m not suggesting we do what I’m about to propose, I just think it’s an interesting ethical/moral thought experiment.

If we could find a lot of people who want to unalive themselves, and say to them: there’s been a disaster and there are a lot of people who are stuck (e.g. a mine collapse, or 9/11 or something like that) and it’s a dangerous situation for rescue workers to go into, since you don’t care if you die we’re gonna send you in… would it be an ethical or moral thing to do? To ask or make people who don’t care if they live or not, to go into a situation that there’s a known high risk that they won’t survive?

(Also, I not asking wether it is a good idea to send such people in or wether it would be effective — I’m only interested in the ethics/morality of such an idea)

Chaunticleer 54 points 12 days ago

You've already got a lot of replies. Hopefully somebody else hasn't said this: It's unethical because then you've created a societal incentive to create conditions that make the most exploitable of workers.

This would be America's wet dream

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ReconciliationTime22128 13 points 12 days ago

Or russias

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Chaunticleer 9 points 12 days ago

Them too. Lots of places would kill to be allowed to make suicide-workers

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ReconciliationTime22128 14 points 12 days ago

Pretty sure Russia is likely already doing it to some extent to make up its dwindling army

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Chaunticleer 12 points 12 days ago

Press ganging, yeah. They did that at the beginning of "Special Ukraine Operation". It's hard to organize an invasion when nobody believes their elections work

Remember when even Wagner said "fuck this shit" and turned on them? How badly does a war have to be conceived to make guns for hire turn coat and march on Moscow?

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HikingVet 50 points 12 days ago

We keep suicidal people out of those situations because they increase death tolls.

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Arcanepotato 37 points 12 days ago

This is such a great answer.

Sometimes I do dangerous things at work. I once, light-heartedly, mentioned I am afraid of heights to the person who would be operating then gantry to lower us 20 m underground. I meant it as a friendly "hey I'm human too" to the worker who seemed awkward about having to take the engineer down into the hole. That very nearly ended the work.

I had to explain that yes, I am not a fan of heights, but that just meant I wouldn't be looking over the edge of the gantry going down. I learned that this type of thing is taken extremely seriously. It is critical that everyone can trust that the others on the crew can keep their cool if something goes wrong. The only thing that made what I said forgivable in terms of letting the work proceed is that I was down there to do a condition assessment, and was not part of the rescue team or operating any equipment. I was tied off and could be retrieved with the lifeline. No one would have to put themselves at risk if I fainted, for example.

In addition to this, I think the concept is cruel. If one supports the ability of those who want to die to do so, they should be able to do it with dignity and not risking a painful death or surviving with debilitating injury.

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klankin 4 points 12 days ago

I didn't read the whole thread so maybe you already answered this, but Ive always though of this question in a

"Well we definitely can't get you BACK from Mars..." type of way.

Almost like allow suicidal people a Viking like funeral, in a more scientific way.

But of course letting someone with suicidal impulses making dangerous choices for themselves and others is bad and dangerous all around.

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Arcanepotato 5 points 12 days ago

No, I didn't address this scenario. It's not really relevant to why I think some of the situations presented are unethical, but I'm happy to chime in.

I don't think letting people volunteer for a task that will certainly result in their death is inherently unethical. I also don't think people who volunteer for long or one way space missions are volunteering to die. They are volunteering to die in space. They are accepting that their life may be shorter than on earth, and accepting that it's a one way trip.

Sure, if they volunteer to go up in a vessel that isn't coming back, and the vessel relies on a finite supply of life sustaining things with no plan to accept deliveries or seek out sources, then I can accept that is volunteering for a task that will be the cause of your death. That's a bit more concerning for me because of the time periods involved. A person could change their mind but have to live years and years knowing they cannot survive their choice.

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ReconciliationTime22128 3 points 12 days ago

In addition to this, I think the concept is cruel. If one supports the ability of those who want to die to do so, they should be able to do it with dignity and not risking a painful death or surviving with debilitating injury.

TL;DR to be honest, that last paragraph was all I was asking about. Thanks for sharing your view.

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Arcanepotato 11 points 12 days ago

I don't think the people who are focusing on why it's a bad idea are ignoring the focus on ethics, tbh. It's unethical to do this because it puts others at risk too.

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ReconciliationTime22128 -2 points 12 days ago

I know they aren’t, I’m just curious about the ethics/morals of such an idea is all. Obviously if it was put into practice, the effectiveness would undoubtedly need to be considered. However, as I said before, this isn’t being put into practice — it’s a discussion on Lemmy.

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im_fine_sandy 2 points 11 days ago

Exactly, its unnecessarily risks the people requiring rescue.

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ReconciliationTime22128 2 points 12 days ago

That’s what I thought. If they knew they were going into a life threatening situation, I guess it could be counterproductive as they might just seek to end themselves rather than do the task at hand (which might be to rescue people).

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remon 16 points 12 days ago

No, it would also be rather stupid. I want the people that were sent to rescue me make it out alive, ideally with me. Just adding more corpses to a disaster is pointless.

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ReconciliationTime22128 0 points 12 days ago

That’s exactly why I don’t fully understand critics of that J. Ismay or whatever his name was: if he hadn’t jumped into the rescue boat, it would’ve only meant another name added to the death list

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cattywampas 4 points 12 days ago

First of all you can say "kill" and "suicidal" on the internet, the thought police won't come for you.

Second, J. Bruce Ismay got done pretty dirty by the newspapers of the time as he'd had a falling out with media magnate William Randolph Hearst and was the highest-ranking White Star Line employee to survive. The movie then reinforced this in his portrayal. He actually helped a lot of people during the sinking before getting into a boat himself, which the official inquiries attested to:

"Mr. Ismay, after rendering assistance to many passengers, found 'C' collapsible, the last boat on the starboard side, actually being lowered. No other people were there at the time. There was room for him and he jumped in. Had he not jumped in he would merely have added one more life — namely, his own — to the number of those lost."

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ReconciliationTime22128 1 point 12 days ago

I mean, I’ve never seen the movie, I’ve just read about his story. But yeah, I agree: the media did him wrong (to some extent)

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cattywampas 3 points 12 days ago

I'd say the media did him wrong to a great extent. It was a pretty classic case of yellow journalism, and in reality he'd done nothing wrong.

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username_1 11 points 12 days ago

I think suicidal people just don't care. They are suicidal for a reason. And society is the most frequent reason. Why would they want to help those who made their life insufferable?

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ReconciliationTime22128 1 point 12 days ago

Even just casual people who they never met? I suppose when you’re in that mindset perhaps it’s hard to think of others maybe. That said, it doesn’t answer wether it would be ethical/moral, only wether it would be effective

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BeelzebubEiNukuKoskaan 5 points 12 days ago

I'm not suicidal anymore but I still don't think or care about people I've never met. People suck and most of them don't care about me either, so I don't spend any time thinking about them.

Anyway, as for the morality. We send people who are not suicidal to do dangerous jobs already. I don't think its a question of morality. If you have a dangerous job and someone is willing to do it for the money you offer, that's fine.

But if you mean that should be be forcing people to do dangerous stuff, then obviously that is not moral and shouldn't be done.

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flamingo_pinyata 7 points 12 days ago

If you don't want to live, would you be good at rescuing those who do want?

If it's a one way situation like going into a nuclear reactor to stop it from exploding - absolutely yes. But if it requires that suicidal person comes back out like in a mine rescue - not so sure.

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ReconciliationTime22128 2 points 12 days ago

I see your point, but I wasn’t asking wether it would be effective, only wether the idea itself is ethical or moral

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Vandals_handle 7 points 12 days ago

I say using ineffective rescue personnel as opposed to trained and effective personnel is immoral. You are further endangering the lives of those needing rescue.

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ReconciliationTime22128 -1 points 12 days ago

I do agree, although I think there’s ambiguity with either being used tbh. It’s like, take 9/11 for example: when the police helicopters saw the north tower sinking on one side, the fire department immediately ordered all firefighters to evacuate, despite knowing full well that there were a lot of people still trapped above. It’s undoubtedly ethical/moral to save your own life, but is it ethical/moral to leave them trapped? Even though it arguably is, it’s still questionable.

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Vandals_handle 4 points 12 days ago

Your question was is it ethical, not are there risks.

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ruuster13 6 points 12 days ago

If we're able to effectively target those people, we should give them what they need to survive (e.g. for depression) or what they need to die (e.g. MAID).

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Malica 6 points 12 days ago

Unethical

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schipelblorp 4 points 12 days ago

While actually being able to help people might give people a reason to live, they might just step inside the door of a burning building, sit down, and wait for smoke inhalation ot take them, in which case, all you're really offering then is a method. So I'd say a full analysis of your plan would actually include EFFECTIVENESS; that is to say, what is the likely result of this action has some bearing.

But, if you're just interested in ethics, the broadly accepted ethic is that people are not allowed to kill themselves OR put themselves in dangerous situation because they want to die. In fact, if your mental health care worker SUSPECTS you of planning to do that, they're supposed to notify the state and the state evaluates you and locks you up against your will. And if the mental health practitioner does not do that and you do unalive yourself, they could lose their license and be sued into the ground by remaining family.

Despite the fact that forced hospitals stays do nothing--and are arguably worse--than other approaches that respect the patient's autonomy; despite the fact that calling the police destroys any trust a client has with a therapist, who is maybe their only person; despite the fact that this pressure makes the population of therapists willing to see suicidal patients much smaller....

So, yeah, there's things to be said about it, but I think your scenario is easily unethical under the current regime.

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user224 2 points 12 days ago

the broadly accepted ethic is that people are not allowed to kill themselves OR put themselves in dangerous situation because they want to die

Which is bullshit.
I was born without my permission. Obviously. That's already bad enough.
I should at least be allowed to die from my own will. It's not like there is any physically possible way to regret death, just like there is no regret of not being born.

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schipelblorp 1 point 12 days ago

I sort of agree with you, but I come at it from a different angle.

I don't think people have an absolute right to kill themselves, but I think everyone is worse off where they have to monitor what they say to their therapists and have to worry about being imprisoned in an abusive unhelpful insitution. Seem like, in the aggregate, the world is a worse place for instituting the report-and-commit policy.

And, of course, the money that the hospital gets for jailing you wouldn't otherwise go to, say, housing.... it's a fucked up society from top to bottom.

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bedwyr 4 points 12 days ago

Waste.

People about to die should all be helped by anonymous groups to, let's say, moderate, the views of the super rich and their lackeys. If you get my drift.

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gastroglizzy 3 points 12 days ago

Yes, but probably not for the reason you're thinking.

It would be unethical because people who don't care about living would not make effective rescuers, they're not trained to handle these situations effectively, and it would decrease the chances of successfully rescuing the person.

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HobbitFoot 2 points 12 days ago

So, I look at this from the opposite point of view, would I want to hire social people for high danger situations? For most situations, the answer is no.

If I need something done right and I'm willing to risk a human life for it, why am I sending someone whose main goal is to die and be happy with that as the achieved goal? I have to spend time and money getting them fit for purpose just to lose that investment because they blew themselves up. Then, I potentially have to deal with a hazardous situation caused by their death, which may cause additional damage and loss of life.

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mushroommunk 2 points 12 days ago

I'm kind of surprised in all the discussions I don't see where anybody mentioned recent history in Japan where it wasn't directly asked but a few cultural aspects led to exactly what you're talking about happening. Old people took up working in Fukushima nuclear reactor because they knew the radiation would likely harm them and they wanted to spare the young.

Like a modern day practical Ättenstupa.

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ReconciliationTime22128 -1 points 12 days ago

Have you ever read about the K-19 sub disaster? I like to contrast the two examples:

When the sub began to experience a meltdown, the captain got suicidal thoughts:

“At one point, I thought of going down to my cabin, drawing my pistol and finishing all my problems at once,” he said.

But rather than go himself into the reactor, he got ‘volunteers’ to sacrifice their lives to go in and repair.

Also, if you read the entire comments section, you’ll see that others have in fact already mentioned that example.

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yermaw 2 points 11 days ago

Its been a while since I've seen it, but would it eventually do a Lethal Weapon?

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user224 1 point 12 days ago

Same as usual, only if that person wants to.

There's a large difference between painless euthanasia or instant suicide (e.g. shot in the head) and, say, burning to death or getting buried alive under rubble.

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tigermountain 1 point 10 days ago

It depends on the moral code you follow whether it's ethical or not.

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Zwuzelmaus 1 point 12 days ago

No. Not ethical at all!

Life itself is one of the highest ethical values. Even the life of a suicidal person. It has the same value.

By bringing such a person in dangerous situations, it is very likely that this brings her closer to suicidal thoughts and/or opportunities.

Therefore, such situations must be avoided, for these people even more than for "normal", not suicidal people.

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ReconciliationTime22128 1 point 12 days ago

Thanks for sharing your view

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Fleur_ 0 points 11 days ago

Ehh I could see it for testing drugs or other new medical technologies

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Pomal 0 points 12 days ago

See the Fukushima reactor clean ups.

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gastroglizzy 6 points 12 days ago

Those people weren't suicidal, they were too old for their health to be negatively affected by the amounts of radiation present.

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Pomal 0 points 12 days ago

See my other reply in this specific thread.

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ReconciliationTime22128 1 point 12 days ago

I prefer the K-19 reactor repair tbh

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Pomal 2 points 12 days ago

In each instance, end was near but the drive to live was not gone. It’s just surrender to the fact that someone had to make it happen.

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ReconciliationTime22128 0 points 12 days ago

Yes, although there is one interesting point about the K-19: according to the captain of the sub, when the disaster began, he did began to experience suicidal thoughts:

“At one point, I thought of going down to my cabin, drawing my pistol and finishing all my problems at once,” he said.

What I find interesting is that though he continued on, he didn’t voluntarily go into the reactor himself, instead sending ‘volunteers’ in.

Source: https://www.latimes.com/...

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yesman 0 points 12 days ago

How would this even work? Recruit on the suicide prevention line? How would you train suicidal people? Just give them the rundown on the way to the earthquake or mine disaster? Do we think suicidal people are organized, motivated, fit, and competent?

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ReconciliationTime22128 3 points 12 days ago

Wholly irrelevant to the question of whether it’s ethical or not. The debate over whether it’s feasible is a separate debate entirely. I asked if it’s ethical/moral.

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5) This is not a support community.

It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.

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