Do Germans have a long convoluted word for when somebody asks something and you first say "What?" but then immediately answer their question anyway as if your mouth was quicker than your brain?

5 days ago by LouNeko to c/asklemmy

FishFace 52 points 5 days ago

German compound nouns are just written without spaces. There's no grammatical difference between "Schlafsack" (= Schlaf "sleep" + Sack "bag") and "sleeping bag", except the way they're written down. In English we analyse a "word" as "a thing you write down with spaces on either side", which is valid as a definition or as an analysis, but it's not what we really think of when we talk about words, which we think of as something more fundamental.

If, tomorrow, we decided in English to write compound nouns without spaces, the language would have suddenly gained thousands and thousands of words, yet the only real difference would be a rule about writing things down. Spoken English would be exactly the same, so nothing fundamental about the actual bits of English would have changed.

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schipelblorp 36 points 5 days ago

One of my frustrations with English is that spaces in compound nouns are arbitrary. We have fishbowl but also fish tank.

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FishFace 18 points 5 days ago

Well the rest of the rules around written English are arbitrary, why would this one be different?!

I think I'd write fish bowl separately though.

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schipelblorp 13 points 5 days ago

What would you call this?

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FishFace 32 points 5 days ago

delightful?

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ladybugs 4 points 3 days ago

oh no. you broke the English language!

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schipelblorp 8 points 5 days ago

Wikipedia explains "the rules."

Tap for spoiler

They're more suggestions.

Orthography: open, hyphenated, or solid (closed up)

English uses many open compound nouns, a large subclass of which, by convention in accepted English orthography, are not closed up (not solidified) and are sometimes optionally hyphenated in attributive position (that is, when functioning as a noun adjunct). Examples are high school, kidney disease, and file format. Although some other languages would close up these nouns' components (for example, German usually does so), English has a tendency whereby it closes up only certain ones, usually only ones in which the head noun is monosyllabic (and even within that category, only sometimes, and in a way that is not fully standardized). For example, data set and dataset, or file name and filename, are accepted alternative forms, but file format, data format, and data analysis, which have multisyllabic heads (format and analysis), can only be spelled as open in accepted English orthography. This pattern holds for countless nouns with few exceptions. For the class with monosyllabic heads, there is a tendency that "compounds tend to solidify as they age,"[5]: 368  which is how a term such as data set becomes dataset, pin-up becomes pinup,[5]: 368  coal mine becomes coalmine, bottle cap becomes bottlecap, and so on. Such alternative forms usually continue to coexist in accepted use; style guides often convene on preferred dictionaries as a way of achieving consistency, by declaring that the headword form there will be the default styling for each such term.

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Denjin 5 points 5 days ago

Depends if it's a fish bowl (a bowl for a fish) or a fishbowl (a big watered down drink you can buy from bad nightclubs)

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flandish 1 point 5 days ago

i too remember getting a fishbowl in the 90’s at applebee’s in the mall, then going to a movie, and then hoping by the time your movie was done you’d be sober enought to drive home.

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DougPiranha42 3 points 5 days ago

Pink Floyd:

How I wish, how I wish you were here
We're just two lost souls swimming in
a fishbowl, year after year
Running over the same old ground, what have we found?
The same old fears, wish you were here

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FishFace 2 points 4 days ago

Seems I'm just old-fashioned:

image

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TBi 1 point 4 days ago

My fish bowl in a fishbowl.

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Grimy 5 points 5 days ago

I didn't believe you at first so I checked a few. This kind of ruins the magic tbh.

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MrOtingocni 4 points 5 days ago

Wow, I actually learned something today.

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ExtraJudgement 2 points 4 days ago

Mostly true, but in standard German one would normally vocalize "Schlafsack" without any audible pause between the f and the s.

If you were to pronounce "Schlaf sack", there would generally be an expectation of a glottal stop an audible stop between the f and the s (dialects excluded).

So while, yes, compound words in German are written without spaces, that's not just a writing difference.

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FishFace 1 point 4 days ago

This is the same in English between "sleeping" and "bag". The pronunciation of "ing ba" in "sleeping bag" is exactly the same as the pronunciation of "ingba" in "dingbat".

In German, just the same: there is not generally a pause between words written separately: there's no gap that you can find on a spectrogram of a recording of someone saying, say, "brauner Sack" between the two words.

I think people are surprised to hear this, so one explanation for what you wrote is that you genuinely believe in speech there is generally a tiny pause between words, that you don't find within words. It's difficult to find a good citation for this because it's a fairly basic fact in linguistics, in spite of how surprising it may be; the best I came up with was this Duolingo post

But you may already be aware of that and be getting at something else: in German, "Schlafsack" is a word that will be understood by anyone if you say it in the normal way. To get someone to understand that you're saying the two words "Schlaf Sack" next to one another without understanding "Schlafsack", you need to do something to make it clear, otherwise they'll understand the normal word. And one way to do that would be to insert a tiny gap. This is different though: in English if you wanted someone to understand "sleeping bag" not as the thing you use while camping but, perhaps, an anthropomorphic bag that is having a nap, you need to employ something similar. So this is not a difference between the languages.

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ExtraJudgement 2 points 4 days ago

In German, just the same: there is not generally a pause between words written separately: there’s no gap that you can find on a spectrogram of a recording of someone saying, say, “brauner Sack” between the two words.

At the cost of appealing to authority: As a native German speaker, I can absolutely hear the glottal stop a stop between two separate words. It exists. It can also often be found between consecutive vowels within a word, but not necessarily between consecutive consonants like in your example. There's a reason why it's in the IPA. It's also e.g. the basis for the "gender not-really-neutral" dialect of German, which injects an additional glottal stop into a word (like Bürger:innen, which is pronounced like Bürger innen, not like Bürgerinnen).

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FishFace 1 point 4 days ago

Paradoxically, non-native speakers tend to be better at analysing this kind of thing ;) German for sure does not have a glottal stop between most words. "Das Kind" is /daskınt/ not /dasʔkınt/.

I'm not sure if I've misunderstood you and this isn't what you're saying happens...

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givesomefucks 2 points 5 days ago

would be a rule about writing things down.

Which really explains most of the weird things with English...

English isn't a "real" language, it's a hodgepodge peasant language that was completely unsupervised by any sort of written down words let alone rules. Like, shit just wasn't even really written in English, everyone educated enough to know how to write, knew "proper" languages and used them. It's why English words are used for animals rich people ate (pig, cow, deer) and French was used for what rich people ate (pork, beef, venison). English just didn't need a word for eating them as food, because no one who spoke only English could afford it. Meanwhile the simple chicken was called chicken regardless of if it was in a coop or in soup.

It was only standardized with the early use of the printing press by Dutch workers who didn't know English, but still felt the need to edit what they were printing. That was like 1470ish, and written old German has been traced back to like late 700s with a consistent usage. So even though English is standardized now, it's built on an absolutely nonsensical foundation. While other European language had educated people building logical systems.

It just seems weird to people who only know English and assume it's actually normal because they learned as a baby how to speak it.

Also the reason any random American can make decent money teaching English to foreigners, it's almost impossible to learn all the random shit intentionally.

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schipelblorp 5 points 5 days ago

Also the reason any random American can make decent money teaching English to foreigners, it's almost impossible to learn all the random shit intentionally.

The reason English speakers can make decent money is that English is a high-demmand language and people naively value native speakers.

Untrained native speakers of any langauge are fucking horrible teachers because they can't explain anything to you. All they can say is, "I would say this in this situation, but can't tell you why I'd say that in that situation."

Please, don't pay an untrained native speaker for anything but conversation practice.

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FishFace 2 points 5 days ago

The idea that English's orthography is crazy because it came into written use late doesn't really hold water. The ancestors of Modern English have all been written down for many centuries, even though post-1066 no-one was using it for a good while at court.

It's more that English as a whole is split between a Germanic and Romance ancestry, with the orthography of both sources being represented, while standardisation took place right around the time of a huge shift in pronunciation - the great vowel shift - fossilising an orthography that represented a bygone pronunciation.

In fact I think more can be blamed on English writing being standardised early than late, and then not keeping up with changes in pronunciation: the infamous cluster used to represent a pronounced /x/ sound - compare English night with German Nacht, or knight with Knecht, or freight with Fracht. All these spellings were standardised from a language that pronounced this consonant! If English really standardised late, then the likelihood would be that these words would not have a (written) consonant where the pronunciation doesn't have one.

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givesomefucks 1 point 5 days ago

It’s more that English as a whole is split between a Germanic and Romance ancestry, with the orthography of both sources being represented

It's way more than those two...

a huge shift in pronunciation

That has absolutely nothing to do with grammar, just spelling...

Like, you seem to be solely focused on spelling.

And that's my entire point, you don't notice the other shit because it's "normal" to you. That's why you'd be paid money to "teach" English...

The rules are so convoluted and nonsensical (the adjective order is a great example) that even native speakers are often unaware of the rules, we just follow them without understanding them.

You can't teach a non native speaker all the rules, it's too much to remember. They need that whole "immersion" thing everyone says but never understands. They need to figure it out thru trial and error and learn it subconsciously otherwise they'll always be focused on translating into English and abiding every rule and remembering each exception.

That's also why you see internet comments of absolutely perfect classroom English, where the writer constantly apologized for their poor English. Textbook can be learned, but authentic English speakers rarely speak/write how we were taught, and that is what wealthy foreigners want their kids to learn, how the language is actually used.

That is nowhere near as big of an issue with any other language.

Because English isn't consistent or logical. There's a shit ton of exceptions to every "rule" and users constantly change things.

Getting deeper into how language influences our thoughts, and the rise of English could explain "the Americanization" of the world just because of how disorganized it can be leaving room for cheating and the importance it puts on the individual and capitalism:

Studies in psychology have found that bilingual people respond differently when they complete tasks in different languages. For example, one study randomly assigned bilingual people in India to complete a work task in Hindi or English.[10] Social norms were more effective at motivating people to work longer in Hindi, whereas payment was more effective in English, which is similar to results when people work in their native languages in the United States and India. Another study randomly assigned bilingual managers in Hong Kong to rate the importance of different values in English or Chinese.[11] When surveyed English, managers in Hong Kong rated conformity and tradition as less important and rated achievement and hedonism as more important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...

It's a fascinating topic, but I fully expect it to be one of those things no one's heard of before, so people with no idea what is going on will reflexively defend English as a language.

Which ironically enough, they likely wouldn't experience that response if their native language wasn't English, even if someone was critizing their hypothetical native language.

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FishFace 1 point 5 days ago

I'm talking about orthography because the thread is about how language (German originally) is written - i.e. orthography. You didn't mention anything about grammar until this latest comment; your previous comment mentioned orthography and vocabulary. All I did was continue talking about what I was already talking about.

The rules are so convoluted and nonsensical (the adjective order is a great example)

The adjective order is an old, overblown meme. The meme came with a ready-made exception ("big bad wolf") which is no less of an exception for the fact that it came with ready-made excuse ("ablaut reduplication").

Did you notice that "old, overblown meme" violates the order (opinion follows age)? That's because it's overblown.

Did you know that other languages have adjective orders of various specificity and rigidity?

Yes, it's a fascinating topic, and yes, there are many markers of non-native English speaking which are impractical to teach. But it sounds like you're trying to steer the conversation somewhere I don't want to go, and I'm not going down there. As soon as you start categorising languages as "real" or "not real" you're on your own. Your misunderstanding of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, likewise.

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Gladaed 51 points 5 days ago

German words don't tend to be long and convoluted. That's just a stereotype due to writing rules.

A sentence spelled without spaces isn't a word.

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schipelblorp 4 points 5 days ago

Stereotype?

Stereo type?

Stereo-type?

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Gladaed 1 point 5 days ago

That's just a regular english word.

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aldhissla 2 points 5 days ago

Or as some would say, classic wortlängenbedingte Sprachwesensverfälschung*. See the space there inbetween ☝️?

*amtlich korrigiert

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Gladaed 4 points 5 days ago

Sprachwesensverfälschung, wenn ich bitten darf.

(Word length induced misconception of a language's nature)

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chickenf622 1 point 5 days ago

Would that end bit basically translate to "if I may"/"if you will"? I know a more literal translation would be "if I may ask/request". Mein Deutsch ist mittelmäßig und ich brauche mehr Übung.

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Gladaed 2 points 5 days ago

Not really, it's a phrase. Basically "if you please".

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Octopus 14 points 5 days ago

Off topic, but in English, it’s called an ‘audio processing disorder’

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a_jeering_serpent 4 points 5 days ago

What? No say the exact same words again. What’s a singdis? Audio process singdis order? Audio processing disorder! Oh, I have one of those! Why? What’s up? I wasn’t listening.

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ajikeshi 14 points 5 days ago

talking without thinking.... that could be called "amischnattern"

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ChojinDSL 1 point 5 days ago

Den muss ich mir merken.

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ajikeshi 1 point 5 days ago

ah... ist lustiger sich spontan was auzudenken und mit den worten zu spielen :D

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username_1 10 points 5 days ago

What?
Oh, why do you care? You wouldn't be able to pronounce it anyway :)

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remon 8 points 5 days ago

Not that I'm aware of but you can always make one up.

Like "verarbeitiungszeitintensive Frage" or something like that.

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FritzApollo 2 points 5 days ago

Mundschnelleralsseele?

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aldhissla 0 points 5 days ago

Klappengeschwindigkeitsübertretung

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frigge 8 points 4 days ago

Aufmerksamkeitsdefizithyperaktivitätssyndrom

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DickCaramel 8 points 5 days ago path: 0 26209088, hotness: undefined, score: 8, children: 1
LouNeko 1 point 5 days ago

I think that might actually be it.

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ExtraJudgement 7 points 4 days ago

Mundhirnverbindungslatenz.

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Zensate 5 points 5 days ago

No but they do have a word for asking about it

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lokalhorst 5 points 5 days ago

Dumme Angewohnheit.

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manxu 2 points 5 days ago

Mundschussvorhirnverwendung

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Zwuzelmaus 2 points 5 days ago

I call it in a neat & translateable manner:

Some do their thinking 5cm behind the forehead,
and some do it 5cm before.

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SubArcticTundra 2 points 5 days ago

Ooh I've had this happen

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AmidFuror 1 point 5 days ago

VorschnellantworttrotzNichtverstehensreaktion

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Sly2 1 point 4 days ago

Umgekehrt proportionales-Denk-plapper Verhältnis?

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Kazumara 1 point 4 days ago

Not that I am aware of, sorry.

All the words posted before by the others in the thread are made up, and some of them aren't even good at pretending to be German.

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fyzzlefry 1 point 4 days ago

All words are made up...

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Kazumara 1 point 3 days ago

Yeah but not all of them are rectently made up by an individual person for the purpose of being posted here in order to mislead others about words that are in practical use.

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Malica 1 point 4 days ago

ADHD?

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mojofrododojo 1 point 4 days ago

ya, da sperkenzspleitzchenraufmoderhausen

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BoosBeau 1 point 5 days ago

Ze Mouthen iz tu Quiken

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FritzApollo 3 points 5 days ago

Some bastard dialect between English and Frisian haha.

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BeMoreCareful 0 points 4 days ago

Shaddenlisten

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