cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/53714894
cope, shitlibs
psycholocomotor 1 point 6 hours ago
I think the tanks are uncontroversially okay if they're being used to defend against imperialism. Iran, for example: I'd be fine for Iran to use its tanks against a US ground invasion or to deter against one. Also, the USSR was justified in having tanks to defend itself against the German invasion, to provide a good example from the past.
If a tankie is someone who unconditionally supports the anti-imperialist side in a conflict instead of saying "both are imperialist, both bad" and condemning both out of idealist pacifism, then I'm a tankie.
the_abecedarian 11 points 6 days ago
you are so pressed you had to post this to feel better
username_1 5 points 6 days ago
Can you tell green grass from a cold steel rail? Most probably not.
psycholocomotor 1 point 6 hours ago
why are trains catching strays? I love trains.
gualudengren 6 points 5 days ago
Congratulations you believe the exact same thing as tankies in that regard.
Wobble 1 point 2 days ago
Correct! We are discussing the means, and if the means are justified. This is where I disagree with the direction Lenin wants us to take, by creating a vanguard to lead on the behalf of the proleteriat.
gualudengren 2 points 2 days ago
Might not be your intention but you're making a very benign concept that is essentially a necessity at any sort of scale (representative democracy) sound quite ominous. For any organisation of groups beyond a few people everyone voting on everything is simply unfeasible.
This is not even to get into the weeds of the uneven development of class consciousness, etc.
gualudengren 5 points 5 days ago
They were/are Socialist. Communism is an end stage that can only be achieved once the class struggle has been overcome on a global scale. Unfortunately since no button exists to make this happen instantly and perfectly a transitional period is necessary, and the most successful/best answer that has been put forth thus far on how to implement this is the proletarian state. This is what tankies (and communists more generally understand/believe).
webghost0101 3 points 6 days ago
To me (anarchist) communism means no social classes of any kind.
The political or ruling class is a social class, therefor any form of modern state that is not actively trying to devolve itself into a decentralized network without leaders is anti-communist by nature, regardless what they tell you.
therealdries 2 points 6 days ago
decentralized network without leaders rulers
FTFY.
Anarchists really need to get over this confused understanding of how human organisation works.
webghost0101 3 points 6 days ago
Rulers is indeed what i meant.
therealdries 1 point 6 days ago
Most excellent!
Cowbee 2 points 10 hours ago
This is largely just a disagreement you have with Marx on what class means. For Marx, class is a social category related to ownership of the means of production, and all class societies are divided primarily into two classes, an owning class and a working class. The ruling class of society is the one that owns the state and the commanding heights of the economy. By insinuating that there is a "political class," you create a third class that exists outside of the class struggle, oppressing all, but this isn't how states function or how the state relates to the economic base.
This is why the Marxist path to class abolition requires collectivizing all production and distribution, not simply dismantling as much hierarchy as possible. There's intra-class hierarchy, which can be benign or not, and inter-class hierarchy, which the working class can wield to it's own advantage by becoming the ruling class. It isn't the "political class" that controls the state, but instead one of the two primary classes in any given society, the workers or owners.
As the state collectivizes production and distribution, it creates one unified society that sees no distinction in ownership, thus creating classless society and eliminating the need for a state to keep the ruling class on top, as there is no distinction between workers and owners, as all occupy both.
webghost0101 1 point 8 hours ago
Thanks for you eloquent reply.
You might be on to something there, mainly that while i stil very much respect Marx and the work he did, i have found myself deviating from his philosophies as i got more left on the political spectrum.
For example the dictatorship of the proletariat never sat right with me. Power in my observation always corrupts, regardless of who holds it.
I instead find myself much more in agreement with Kropotkin. Its quite telling that while Kropotkin did get a preferable treatment being somewhat on friendly terms with Lenin his fellow anarchist got prosecuted under Bolshevik rule. Which to me sounds like state cencorship, oppresion of individual freedom.
Needless to say i would have been prosecuted the same. So i while i do respect marx for his theory i firmly oppose Lenin his practical execution.
Cowbee 2 points 7 hours ago
Extending the thoughts of my previous comment, the state can only ever be the dictatorship of a given class. In classless society, there is no class to be dictator, and thus there is no basis for the state. The state exists for class supremacy. The dictatorship of the proletariat is simply a democratic system where the working class controls all political power, and uses the state against those that would oppose the interests of the working class (typically the owning class, but also class traitors).
The notion that "power corrupts" isn't actually how administrative positions function in reality. Power isn't some supernatural force that people turn metaphysically evil by. Administrative positions allow people levers, and these levers can be twisted in their own favor. At the same time, administration is a necessity for large-scale production and distribution, the kind necessary to achive classless society, meet the needs of everyone, expand everyone's freedoms, and achieve scientific, collective planned goals. Keeping the problems that can come from manipulating these levers in check is a problem of form of organization, not a challenge to the necessity of these positions.
I used to be an anarchist, but understanding scientific socialism as presented by Marx and Engels leads me to accept Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally correct. The vanguard path to revolution as is key to Leninism is merely an advance in the strategy of establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat, not a change in what the dictatorship of the proletariat looks like.
webghost0101 2 points 6 hours ago
I understand the theory you are coming from but with all respect reading your comment made me shiver. “State supremacy” most of all.
I do not trust any individual to control levers that they can adjust in their own favour or ideals, especialy not the levers that can dictate who is and who is not a class traitor. It does not take a supernatural force to start punishing anyone critical of the leadership as traitors and have others agreeing against their interests out of fear of being branded a traitor.
In an ideal world i think no state should exist at all, more realistically it should be as decentralised as can be keeping organisational powers as local as can be with no offices one individual can hold.
I do find myself fortunatly priviledged to live in the age of internet communication. Therefor i can envision such decentralized system where all individuals can join and attend to organize shared interests.
Administration and measurements can be provider transparantly for all to read like open source projects. Good ideas can spread organicly and be Imitated by any people to fit their own usecase.
Without modern tools it seems more then logical to have a centralized administration to coordinate the many parts of a society. But we have the means to evolve past needing such.
basiclemmon98 -2 points 6 days ago
By "anarchist", you must mean "shitlib", because THE BOOKS, YOU MUST HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS! You are clearly just uneducated. (this is satire)
TheShamMirrors 2 points 6 days ago path: 0 26219717 26220840 26221519, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 5
chloroken 1 point 6 days ago
Watching videos is a poor excuse for reading. There is a reason you're such an uneducated clown, and it's correlated with how you've only read Harry Potter and you're ostensibly an adult.
TheShamMirrors 1 point 6 days ago path: 0 26219717 26220840 26221519 26223830 26223865, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 3
psycholocomotor 1 point 6 hours ago
Have you read the books? You should really read the books. It certainly can't hurt.
basiclemmon98 0 points 3 hours ago
Recommend me a book of theory written after the invention of the desktop computer and all the infrastructure involved, and then I will take said "theory" seriously.
psycholocomotor 1 point 3 hours ago
Kwame Nkrumah wrote Neo-Colonialism, The Last Stage of Imperialism in 1965 exactly coinciding with the release of the first ever desktop computer, the P101.
basiclemmon98 0 points 3 hours ago
Psychologists don't read Freud for the correct takes in the mind, and biologists don't read Darwin for the most accurate biological theories. Why should I read Marx and Engals to know the best political models?
UpAndAtThem 3 points 6 days ago
Yes, I'm certain the shitlibs will cope, as well as seethe!
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leftymemes
@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of "ML" (read: Dengist) influence. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, discussion and agitprop/stuff that's better fit for a poster than a meme go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme. Please post agitprop here)
0.5 [Provisional Rule] Try to use alt text or image descriptions to allow for greater accessibility
(Please take a look at our wiki page for the guidelines on how to actually write alternative text!)
We encourage alternative text (from now referred to as "alt text") to be added to all posts/comments containing media, such as images, animated GIFs, videos, audio files, and custom emojis.
EDIT: For files you share in the comments, a simple summary should be enough if they’re too complex.
We are committed to social equity and to reducing barriers of entry, including (digital) communication and culture. It takes each of us only a few moments to make a whole world of content (more) accessible to a bunch of folks.
When alt text is absent, a reminder will be issued. If you don't add the missing alt text within 48 hours, the post will be removed. No hard feelings.
0.5.1 Style tip about abbreviations and short forms
When writing stuff like "lol" and "iirc", it's a good idea to try and replace those with their all caps counterpart
- ofc => OFC
- af = AF
- ok => OK
- lol => LOL
- bc => BC
- bs => BS
- iirc => IIRC
- cia => CIA
- nato => Nato (you don't spell it when talking, right?)
- usa => USA
- prc => PRC
- etc.
Why? Because otherwise (AFAIK), screen readers will try to read them out as actually words instead of spelling them
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" (read: Dengists) (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
6. Don't irrationally idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
- Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Sexual assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
go to feed...
My communism says we should disassemble all the tanks and never make any new ones.
save