It seems Linus's position is very clear now
Serinus 65 points 6 days ago
as long is you don't YOLO the result to the lists for other humans to de-slopify for you.
(Or not de-slopify at all.)
There's literally no one I trust more to handle llm code more than Linus.
He's not going to pass off shit in his name. He'll use it in the best possible way.
Lots of reasons to be anti-AI, but it's not all black and white. It's here to stay and it's useful. (But we ain't gonna spend 400 billion a year on it.)
TrickDacy 39 points 6 days ago
People cannot seem to grasp that there is a difference in using LLMs to experiment and just blindly using code written by an LLM. You'd think they would realize Linus is never going to do the latter. Binary thinking leads to this...
bjc 18 points 6 days ago
is there a difference in the environmental destruction when used this way? no? these things have so many negative effects on the world in so many areas that making life more convenient for coddled computer touches doesn’t excuse literally any of it
TrickDacy 4 points 6 days ago
is there a difference in the environmental destruction when used this way?
Yes. There is no doubt that if you use an LLM for everything that will use several fold more times electricity than someone who uses it a few times a year.
Like I said, binary thinking. You're literally saying there is no difference in 1 and 1000000 because both are more than zero.
TrickDacy -2 points 6 days ago
Okay, and? So he should either change his own processes or keep them secret because some dickbag might claim he's legitimized their product?
I think people in a bubble like this platform seem to miss that AI tools are already "legitimized". I am not stating an opinion, I'm just saying what the average person thinks, which is that they are useful. The reality is a lot more complicated than that and I think they're leading us bad places but I don't think your argument works at all
Croquette 12 points 6 days ago
The tools are "legitimized" by a mass ad campaign to shove LLMs down our throats.
Linus is a very influential person in this space and hin using Claude for whatever project he has will legitimize the massive ad campaign that LLMs companies are pushing. It's a jackpot for them. Organic publicity by one of the biggest nerd of the world.
Any push towards LLMs is only benefiting the ultra wealthy and destroying the planet. And this is exactly what this piece of news is doing.
stsquad 6 points 6 days ago
I can absolutely understand some of the objections and I understand why writers and artists are pissed. My code has always been free software so I don't object to it being in the training sets because that seems fair use according to the four freedoms.
The power usage is definitely a concern but that holds up for all computing. I don't see people up in arms about inefficient CI loops retesting the whole world for a single line change. Think of savings that could be made!
victorz 12 points 6 days ago
My code has always been free software so I don't object to it being in the training sets because that seems fair use according to the four freedoms.
But what about the output of an LLM that was trained on free software, then being used in closed source, commercial software? 🙁
inefficient CI loops retesting the whole world for a single line change. Think of savings that could be made!
Oh yeah, I'm definitely with you there. Oh gosh.
They probably should be up in arms! Both are bad things, simultaneously, as two things can be!
bretton.dev -1 points 6 days ago
It seems like the tide is finally starting to turn here in terms of LLM usage. Even 4 months ago this thread would be a nightmare lol
wuphysics87 85 points 6 days ago
My issue isn't with using AI to work on the Linux Kernel. My issue is working on the kernel with proprietary AI which enables Sam Altman to claim Millennium Prizes.
atomicbocks 24 points 6 days ago
Yeah, I’m quickly seeing a future where stuff like this AI rewrite of the Adobe suite may need to be distributed as the model that makes the software and not the software itself. If that becomes the case then we really will have entered into a world where tech bros control everything as you will quickly find yourself in a world where you can’t use the software if you don’t have the compute to make it.
yogthos 10 points 6 days ago
I can see a completely different kind of future where local models that run on commodity software get good enough for what most people need to do. At that point we'd be in a world that Stallman envisioned with every user having full control over what's running on their machine, and being able to build whatever features they want. We already see how it's becoming trivial to reverse engineer complex apps like Photoshop, or to crack PS5 games using LLMs. We are likely end up in a world where closed source is dead because code itself no longer has any value because anybody can copy and reproduce any application trivially.
And we are already starting to get there. Qwen 3.8 27b is comparable in terms of capability to Opus 4.6 which was a frontier model just half a year ago. If Qwen 4 gets to about Opus 5.5 level sometime next year, that's going to be good enough for making vast majority of software that people need. After that it's just a matter of further optimization or hardware getting better so it can run on most computers. But just to reiterate, it's already running on consumer grade hardware, and it can do real work today.
kerryh8er04 7 points 6 days ago
It looks like many AI skeptics have been having a change of heart and maybe some growing dread. You spend the time and it streamlines through the tough problem and it cracks firmware, builds valid specs, reverse engineer enterprise software, it’s been an interesting week.
In some ways I think it might be good, perhaps a significant decrease in proprietary prison cage ecosystems. But at the same time, I have an ever growing dread that we are jumping off the knowledge cliff. The most experienced people are seeing revolutionary productivity, while the least experienced are gaining more capability without the foundational knowledge.
The future may have students who learn nothing, know nothing, and worse they will be happy with nothing.
I’m ready to unplug and live a near Amish lifestyle. Fuck modernity.
yogthos 0 points 6 days ago
How the education system adjusts to this tech will be interesting to watch. I expect that humans who understand how stuff works is going to be a requirement for the foreseeable future, and societies will inevitably adjust. There's always been panic and chaos every time new a disruptive technology has been invented, but humanity inevitably adjusts to it. I don't see any reason to think this will be any different.
atomicbocks 7 points 6 days ago
I’m not sure I agree with the idea that the necessary level of compute will be made available to the average person. We are already well into a paradigm where the average “PC” is an iPad or similar, with Google locking down Android and Microsoft… being Microsoft, I just don’t have any optimism that the future will have the same kind of access to personal computing power or even software access. The “tin-foil hat” part of my brain says that the purchasing years worth of chips output is part of a conspiracy to keep consumers and potential competitors at bay more than it’s a requirement for new models.
I hope I am wrong, but I am not holding my breath.
yogthos 3 points 6 days ago
There are already chips being developed specifically for running LLMs, so it's almost certain this will become akin to having a GPU in the future.
And this tech is now being developed in China as well, so you might not have to rely on western hardware either going forward. Chinese companies are building stuff on top of RSIC-V like the Alibaba chip I linked above, and I fully expect there will be a lot of focus on Linux as China continues to decouple from the US tech stack.
humanspiral 2 points 6 days ago
The tech bros have insane GPU lease agreements. More than they can reasonably afford/use. When "amateurs" can recreate photoshop, 1000x "free" (would be wasted) compute at a better photoshop they control is something they can do too, and beat OSS and adobe. There are capable decompiler to readable/organized source code agents now too. At one point, the LLM labs can stop releasing new models, and just steal everything themselves.
humanspiral 2 points 5 days ago
The top US labs, if their model progress is sufficient to permit its customers to "steal software", can instead of releasing new models use them to steal software for themselves.
bretton.dev 0 points 6 days ago
It's a good thing Sam Altman isn't Anthropic !
LuceVendemiaire 18 points 6 days ago
nitpicking doesnt change the point being made. A corpo getting more control over FOSS is a huge loss for everyone
TeaWithDani 52 points 6 days ago
Linux Foundation has financial backers. He's gotta give them lip service to keep them excited and happy. Anthropic is now a Gold Member. Oracle, Microsoft, Google, Meta, Amazon are all Platinum Members.
FOSS has always been subject to corporate meddling in their governance. There's a reason we call it Linux and not GNU-Linux. GNU gets no money so GNU goes nowhere.
Linus gives a headline using agents, Linux gets millions to continue doing real work. That's the game they are playing, for better or worse.
baatliwala 19 points 5 days ago
Linus regularly posted on Google+, it's more like he himself isn't that into foss and sees everything as a utility to use
TeaWithDani 2 points 4 days ago
Linus has been critical of Gplv3. I dont think he would use Gplv2 again if he could start over.
I wouldn't even disagree with considering it. Look at how corporately independent the BSDs are... and they are just as capable in most fields as Linux.
I'm unsure which license is the best path anymore. That said the outcome would likely be the same eitherway.
Ricaz 16 points 5 days ago
Nobody can prove this is the case. Linus sees coding LLMs as an inevitable evolution and compares them to what compilers were for Assembly.
I don't personally think this particular use of LLMs is unethical, but using open models would definitely improve the look.
TeaWithDani 5 points 4 days ago
Corporate affecting the direction of Linux, directly or indirectly is simply a fact.
Go read the bios of the Linux Foundation Execs and Board of Directors. Ai is often the first thing they mention. Take the CEO or the Chair. BOD includes Microsoft, Oracle and lots of direct Ai stakeholders.
$$$ says Linux kernal serves Ai now. Thats the politics of FOSS non-profits.
atomicbocks 49 points 6 days ago
AI like this is very quickly becoming the One Ring in my mind. Like there’s a bunch of people who have convinced themselves that they can use this plagiarism box in a good way, that the outcome will somehow justify the means. But the reality is that this machine was created by evil for evil reasons and as it stands right now you can’t use Claude or ChatGPT or any of that shit and not participate in the plagiarism, in the outright theft of all of the art and creativity of humanity, and the destruction of our environment.
I wish that more people would understand that the jump from the novelty of Watson beating Ken Jennings on Jeopardy to here wasn’t technological innovation. It was purely capitalism.
GamingChairModel 47 points 6 days ago
plagiarism
outright theft
It frustrates me to see that people are suddenly protective of some kind of intellectual property right of people to control creations after they've been created.
I'm pretty skeptical of AI and have my doubts that it will be a net good, but I'm definitely not gonna suddenly be pro-copyright as part of that fight. Copyright has traditionally been used to entrench corporate interests, and strengthening those protections isn't going to suddenly win a fight against some kind of AI dystopia.
TheAgeOfSuperboredom 39 points 6 days ago
I think it's more about the unequal application if those laws. People have had their lives ruined for sharing an mp3. These companies infringe on literally everything and they get rich.
I bet the next step is that the folks vibe coding emulators and replacements for major software suites are going to get serious fines, while artists are going to continue to get ripped off in the name of "innovation".
atomicbocks 12 points 6 days ago
This is very much the problem I have. We have officially reached the point where the average artist on Deviant Art has less intellectual property rights than the average even LLC let alone megacorp like Disney.
inari -2 points 6 days ago
So which is it? Should people (and AI companies) be prosecuted for copyright violations or should people (and AI companies) not be prosecuted for copyright violations?
If you want equal application of those laws, that is.
TheAgeOfSuperboredom 10 points 6 days ago
It doesn't matter. The law needs to pick one and be consistent.
If you want my personal opinion, I've been against a lot of copyright law most of my life, but I'm beginning to rethink that with this so called AI. I think we need strong protections against commercial infringement while maintaining strong personal fair use. The details of course are complex.
SaharaMaleikuhm 5 points 6 days ago
Either one would be better than the current situation. And let's be real, we aren't gonna have a say in it anway
aberrate_junior_beatnik 4 points 6 days ago
People shouldn't be and companies should, neither should be, both should be, the current situation, in order of decreasing preference.
jumping_redditor -4 points 6 days ago
the reason they can "violate" the rules is that violation is defined loosely enough that feeding millions of legally aquired contents to the AI is probably as legal as making a collage.
communism 5 points 6 days ago
Exactly. What happened to "restriction of what a user can do with software or its source code is an infringement upon the users' rights"? I'm not saying that AI companies are acting in the spirit of FOSS, they're not, their models aren't even open-weight (for the most part), but the issue is not the training on materials that ought to be public domain anyway. There's plenty of ethical issues with modern technology. It's not sustainable at all, the supply chain is full of slavery, it generates huge amounts of emissions, etc. People's primary concern being pearl clutching about "plagiarism" shows where their priorities lie. If AI companies have plagiarised then I couldn't care less. It's everything else they're doing that's the problem.
floquant 11 points 6 days ago
I am not sure it was initially created for evil, I do believe that its discovery was mostly academic and in that it was, and still is, a pretty significant/interesting one. It was very quickly and very strongly made into the perfect weapon for the information age for sure, but i doubt that the original researchers wanted that, or just really thought of the implications outside of information theory. But it was indeed Google, surveillance capitalism incarnate, that initially gifted transformers to the world and kickstarted the whole thing...
Edit: I realised that I inadvertently made this comment about "AI" by way of pronouns when I'm really talking about LLMs. Google of course did not invent AI, and I more strongly disagree that AI in its actual sense was invented for or is inherently evil.
christian 30 points 5 days ago
I actually do think that someone who already has multiple decades of experience in programming without using AI is probably not producing shoddier code after incorporating it into their workflow. Important modern software projects, whose backbones are programmers fitting that description, aren't going to be worse in the present because of Claude usage. I remain strongly against it though, because normalizing its usage guarantees the future won't have programmers that fit that description running the shows.
I think this can be framed as a statement about generative AI in general: If you think AI has been making everything shittier today, just wait until you see what it's been doing to everything tomorrow.
Kiernian 2 points 4 days ago
I actually do think that someone who already has multiple decades of experience in programming without using AI is probably not producing shoddier code after incorporating it into their workflow
While it's not impossible that someone like that exists, the number of times I've seen someone push LLM generated code that LOOKS okay on a first glance to experienced eyes but turns out to result in things like the code as a whole suddenly ignoring all permission groups and just letting everyone through in one particular area, or allowing directory traversal, or injection, or any number of otherwise rookie mistakes is high enough that everyone, especially programmers with decades of experience should be extremely concerned.
thingsiplay 11 points 4 days ago
Nobody freaks out when skilled programmers/professionals use AI
Wrong. Because there are inherent problems with ethics, such as data it has been trained on and licensing questions. Also using LLM might decrease your competence over time. This also gives too much power to those few companies who control what data and logic the Ai is fed with. Even skilled programmers, professionals or not, get lazy.
BTW I am not 100% anti Ai, but I'm not a pro vibe. I think its fine the way some developers use Ai tools. But regardless how it is used, the ethical and licensing questions remain.
Goodlucksil 7 points 5 days ago
Not if you're famous, if you're bad at coding on your own
thingsiplay 1 point 4 days ago
Nobody cares how famous a person is (in relation to this issue). If anything, the position and power a person has is much more important.
veniasilente -2 points 6 days ago
He was already pretty dumbed down back when he used to shit on C++. From there to the neutering he went on (we don't get middle fingers for Nvidia anymore) and now this... it's sad to watch.
Die a hero or else, as the saying goes.
stinkytofuisgood 17 points 4 days ago
AI ethics aside (but not discounted overall), if there's one person I trust above all others to use an LLM to assist in coding properly, it's Linus Torvalds.
Kiernian 3 points 4 days ago
use an LLM to assist in coding properly
This is categorically impossible for any ways in which the LLM could reasonably "assist".
Putting aside any potentially elitist definitions of the word "properly" and simply taking it to mean "code that functions and isn't malware", you're stuck with the same modus operandi you get copy-pasting snippets from stack overflow and hand editing them to fit your codebase.
To wit: you still need to go over every single bit of code to determine whether or not it's safe to include in your existing codebase, and unlike stack overflow, output from an LLM isn't being simultaneously examined by other experts for flaws at the same time you're looking at it.
We need to stop treating LLM's like they're in any way a "robot programmer".
They are database reorganization engines
(data lake of indexed, ingested material)
with a static output style
(resemble human speech patterns)
that is specifically, deliberately written to deceive about its own capability and purpose.
(speak with confidence, which is a thing that a script or a program cannot have, as though it is performing a specific requested task and not just vomiting up the contents of its proverbial shelves because someone handed it an hand crafted index card that menrions a few things from the card catalog it uses)
There should be no place for that in programming.
EtzBetz 0 points 4 days ago
It may be that LLMs are database reorganization engines, but they are becoming pretty fucking good at it lately. I don't have experience with them writing C, but for higher level-languages the output has just become very good.
PetteriPano 1 point 8 hours ago
In my experience LLMs have been great at implementing solved problems that it has been trained on.
I've built a low-level media system that AFAIK exists in one 20yo unmaintained open sourced version, and ~6 proprietary versions. Even with clear specifications and baby steps Opus had a very hard time getting functional code.
CoconutLove 12 points 4 days ago
Lemmy is gonna lose its mind. Lmao!
greedytacothief 11 points 5 days ago
Linus has said that he reads compiler output. I have no doubt that he reads the code, I'm not particularly worried about bad code.
grrgyle 18 points 5 days ago
I just hope he doesn't get lazy and brainrotted like I've seen happen with coworkers. People who used to call themselves "software craftsmen" now shipping 1k+ line changesets with fully generated documentation.
architect -14 points 5 days ago
… obviously he can read it but you people insist it takes so much more time to do it this way. Linus is proving that is a lie. Why would he do that if writing code was so much easier?
Also you people cry about the water usage etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. the water is being used here. Why is it okay for him to do it?
You also don’t know him. Maybe he’s not reading every piece of code.
Yall are hypocrites. Fucking hypocrites. And yall gatekeep from people “you don’t know”(aka if you aren’t already fucking famous you’ve got the mark of the beast Abe deserve ridicule). Yall can’t see how you’re fighting the fight for the oligarchs. You can’t see how you pick and choose who is allowed to use new tech. Fuck all of yall hypocrites. You’re wrong.
custom_username 9 points 5 days ago
I can't wait for a base linux install to be 60 GB of slop, like windows.
stinkytofuisgood 1 point 4 days ago
As long as Linus Torvalds lives, which I hope will be forever, the Linux kernel will never be AI slop.
Whether any particular distro is slop, that's another story.
Prior_Industry 5 points 5 days ago
Any chance Claude code could come up with a solution that would fall under the copyright of a third party?
selokichtli 4 points 5 days ago
I can't edit to see Linus fucking loose it with Claude.
thingsiplay 3 points 4 days ago
"With great power comes great responsibility."
geneva_convenience 3 points 4 days ago
Is this why they recently added nieu rules to not be mean to Claude?
late_pessimistic 2 points 4 days ago
Hopefully LLMs may help fix some random small bugs or rewrite legacy code.
cypherpunks 2 points 5 days ago
for people wondering what "folios" in Linux memory management are: https://lwn.net/Articles/937239/
ratatouille 0 points 3 days ago
What is the difference between Code Linus get from other people and an LLM? As far the AI do not get hurted Feelings from the answer.
tanisnikana -1 points 6 days ago
Fuuuuuck.
In theory I could drive over to his house and knock on his door and ask him to stop using clankers, but I’m sure I would be trespassed immediately.
timewarp 26 points 6 days ago
I also live right outside Portland. This triplea the performance. He correctly documents its use. I see AI being used properly here. People complaining on Lemmy about it still use every piece of technology that make AI possible. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Ooops 4 points 6 days ago
AI is a hideous abomination tainting everything with its existence or our lord and savior that will soon™ solve all of humanity's problems. There is no middle-ground anymore.
And the notion that a tool can be useful for one thing if properly handled, not so useful if used carelessly, and absolutely stupid when used for a purpose it cannot actually fullfil is somehow (magic? collective brain-dead?) deemed crazy now.
PS: The only thing more insane than the discussion itself are the arguments about AI-use being unethical as it is trained on stolen data usually made by the very same copyleft guys that claim that no copyright should exist, all data should be free, and copying something is no theft!
StoneStar 3 points 6 days ago
I personally -do- think copyright shouldn't exist. But it does (for Marvel or whatever), but not for GPL licensed projects once it is encoded in a matrix, and that's pretty messed up. "Loki is a copyrighted Marvel character, I can’t create a new, full-length story using him as the main character.", Yet if I ask it to write a text editor based on GNU Emacs it has very little problem doing so (edit: and technically failing, but still).
tanisnikana 0 points 6 days ago
I can assure you, I haven’t used liquified distilled human text in the same way that AI does. I never will.
The entire concept is terrible.
Goddamn slop apologists coming out of the woodwork all the time. :/
tanisnikana 1 point 6 days ago
No. This heretical abuse of human labor and planetary resources has absolutely no place in society, where it creates lumpy and awkward abominations attempting to replace intent and care.
Fuck AI.
RumRunningDevil 5 points 6 days ago
Hear hear.
Sweet lord I hate these things. They get rid of all the best parts of being human and leave only the shitty parts.
The correct and moral thing to do would be the absolute eradication of the technology and enacting a global non-proliferation treaty. Unfortunately I'm not likely to see that in my lifetime so I'm likely forced to live with the slow collapse of humanity into comfort and leisure.
jumping_redditor -2 points 6 days ago
human labor is purchasable and its outputs are usable for whatever the purcaser wants to use them for. this is the purpose of employment, employees need not know what their output is used for.
tanisnikana 3 points 5 days ago
I would like to not have my fine art photography taken for free and ground into slop.
Hueristic_Autistic -1 points 4 days ago
Great can they make a fucking rgb sliding color changer for Wayland? Fucking sucks not being able to see dark scenes and yeah I tried all the other color profiles.
If we're gonna be screaming switch to Linux how about we mimic the Intel color manager?
stinkytofuisgood 4 points 4 days ago
Different group. You should submit a feature request to the Wayland devs!
Hueristic_Autistic 0 points 4 days ago
I have a feeling they aren't gonna listen.
Mint didn't have a color manager, neither did Debian. They only have color profiles that you can not edit. x11 you can do that terminal trick if you know what you're doing but it's crazy that Wayland style can't handle it or I'm an idiot.
isVeryLoud 2 points 4 days ago
Cue the Stallman rant about Linux being strictly a kernel
bretton.dev -10 points 6 days ago
Love this, opus 5.5 is absolutely nuts at optimization. I was able to use it to get some 10x performance improvements recently.
AceFuzzLord -22 points 6 days ago
The man has clearly gone senile, going from the human label of person to gear.
Trying to use the plagiarism machine that also causes DOT lobotomied as a convenient side effect will not land you in the good graces of anyone with a functioning brain.
AceFuzzLord 2 points 5 days ago
If not me, I'd rather it be the humans who reject generative AI making the call.
SocialistVibes01 -42 points 6 days ago
Linus is - always was - a sellout. Never ask what the Finns were doing during the WWII.
corsicanguppy 11 points 6 days ago
I love how you refer to people who give you things.
I haven't seen your kernel and OS yet, so let me know when it's ready.
SocialistVibes01 -9 points 6 days ago
The community gave things, Linus is just a small part of this. Westerners, smh.
.ca
Learn solidarity and communality, drop your liberalism, and talk again.
sushiatnight 5 points 6 days ago
moment
SocialistVibes01 -2 points 6 days ago
Let me see, would you do what the Finns were doing if given the chance? Good to know. The russo sino phobia is to be expected.
SocialistVibes01 5 points 6 days ago
Go away Nazi
Feathercrown 4 points 6 days ago
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
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The reactions to this have been pretty hysterical considering this is an experimental branch on his own repository. I'm not surprised he might experiment with using AI agents to solve a particular pain point to see how it does. This is using agents to experiment with things that you might not have time to address normally.
Another recent example is the build system where the author said:
off-loading the boring grunt work of identifying bottle necks and trying new approaches seems like an ideal task for a junior agent to deal with as long is you don't YOLO the result to the lists for other humans to de-slopify for you.
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