Highlight:
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant said. “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”
It feels like the Israeli govt has used this terrorist attack to become terrorists themselves.
I mean they've been like that since forever, but now they're showing their true colors (more than they were).
I don't think it is outside of the realm of possibility that in 30 years we learn that the Mossad knew about this and were ordered to let it happen. The intelligence fuckup was so enormous that it seems plausible they at least knew something was up. And the Israeli government has proven itself cynical enough to lend such a thought possible.
There was rumor that they were observed training for this and the authorities told something was up. Which they seemingly ignored. Defense forces have to be right all the time however. Attackers only need to be right once. So be careful reading a lot into it.
I think we'll see Israel just bomb the entire strip into a crater, they've spent the last 20 odd years working on weaponry that's specifically designed to destroy Palestine, they've just been waiting for something they can use as an excuse to use it all.
Israel's "peace talks" are nonsense.
Israelis have stolen their land and homes, have performed ethnic cleansing, stripped them of their rights, and acted like they're the victims the entire time.
There's no good solution here, but an Israeli solution is not any solution at all.
"Israel offering peace talks" is like me offering you a couch after I steal your land and burned your house down. It isn't workable.
There can be no effective peace talks between the neck and the sword.
Palestinians have always been a people with a homeland but deprived of a state, their identity forged by oppression and resistance under a succession of empires. They were not called to give any input on the British decision to carve out their land for a Jewish state. They were driven out of their land by the millions, and those that remained were squeezed tighter and tigther, slowly pushed out of the usable land by illegal colonists which are protected by the state of Israel. Palestinian statehood was neglected for long enough that Israel was able to shatter or consume all Palestinian territory, making a Palestinian state inviable.
The state of Israel is entirely the product of imperialism, first British and now American. There can be no peaceful two-state solution because one of these states should not exist! The only peace will be a one-state peace, and it can only be achieved through bloodshed. Either the Palestinian people will finally gain their sovereignty, or the Zionists will finish building their monoethnic, theocratic paradise over the crushed bones of Palestine.
The idea that "some societies are just evil" is a very poor excuse to justify apartheid, but it's certainly not a new one. What is more "evil": to hate those that invaded your land and deprived you not only of self-determination, but of food, water and a future? Or to consider those of a different religion and cultural background as "human animals", spit on them and their religious symbols, arrest their children and deprive them of their human rights, kick their elders to the curb, drive them out of their family farms and into crowded and guarded ghettos?
Calling that heinous conclusion you came to rational is an offense to reason and to all moral and reasonable people.
I totally agree with you.
In the same vein, Ukraine has totally ignored various offers from Russia and isn't a true partner for peace.
All they need to do is compromise and give up their land.
The only way there will be peace is if Israel moves. Any other negotiations are pointless. There is no path to peace with Israel staying where it is.
Ignorant statement of the day: the only "apartheid" states in the Middle East are Arab ones. I've been on projects where Muslims tried to separate Americans with PhDs and Masters degrees from their teams and put them in slums just because of the color of their skin or their ancestry
Imagine siding with the oppressors and not the oppressed and trying to darvo literal genocide.
You both sides this argument then side with the fascists. Wow.
Dude made the effort to list a couple of things Israel did to solve the conflict by compromising and that is your reply?
Lmao
They already have for decades. It's pretty well known they have killed wounded, children and civilian/non-combatants, and specifically target medical facilities. There's even no actual Red Cross in Israel, the President of Israel appoints the president of the Magen David Adom. Something that only happens in a few authoritarian contexts. The ICRC has spend decades trying to get them to international humanitarian standards, but they stubbornly refused and even used financial manipulation (from the American Red Cross on behalf of Israel) to pressure the movement into folding to their demands. Even after being admitted with the approval of the red crystal, they still continue to violate the conditions of their admittance to the movement. They are not supposed to operate outside of Israel but still act on the West Bank and break the conditions all the time. They're the only Red Cross who is mandated by their state to act as an arm of the army in the event of a war. Something that is explicitly against the principles of the movement and the Conventions.
Best not to poke bomb the sleeping giant.
No electricity, no food, no water…
If everyday people have the choice of sitting and starving or doing something about it, I doubt many would go quietly into the night.
Israel will create the next generation of extremists if they do not kill every single person in Gaza. We’ve seen this in every modern Middle East conflict in the past 40 or so years.
I always find it odd how people blame “extremists” and the Palestinians for this.
Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women. No one bat an eye to that.
Then extremists and hate towards Israel came and bam, they are the bad ones suddenly.
Certainly what Hamas does is entirely wrong however - People cannot expect them be silent and get killed by Israeli forces.
This is what happens from decades upon decades of oppression.
This entire conflict was created by Israel stealing land and starting an genocide mission on Palestinians.
Even killing every person in Gaza will just bread more extremists. Gazans are not the only Palestinians and they are not the only ones affected by Israeli oppression.
Israel should negotiate with Hamas NOW and stop the siege on Gaza fully.
How do you negotiate with someone that just kidnapped and executed or planning to execute hundreds of civilians?
What do you ask for here? And what do you give up?
You know what. Sure. I think Israel will go for this.
Release of all illegally detained Palestinians.
In return, Israel gets
- safe return of all hostages taken
- complete surrender of all Hamas leadership
- complete surrender and custody of all Palestinian combatants
- including anyone who conspired or otherwise assisted in the recent act of terrorism
How do you negotiate with someone that just kidnapped and executed or planning to execute hundreds of civilians?
You don't. There's no negotiating with terrorists, it's too late. There is no good solution. The best Israel can do right now is make every effort to target Hamas, minimize civilian casualties and try to rescue as many people as they can.
If they go nuts and start trying to exterminate in Gaza they'll just fuel the next terrorist standoffs and keep this going for several more decades.
If they go nuts and start trying to exterminate in Gaza they’ll just fuel the next terrorist standoffs and keep this going for several more decades.
Hey, guess what's going to happen!
I hope I'm wrong.
But I doubt it.
I think the goal might just be to kill every single person in Gaza
Unfortunately, Hamas is the Palestinian government.
I imagine if Germany or Japan had the same mentality, they wouldn't be where they are now. A good leader would focus on the future of their own people, not bringing them into destruction.
No, decades of extremist indoctrination that is Gazan education system make extremist. Disinformation is what makes extremists. And it's all being supported by the whole world. Noone in Gaza needs to work, they have EU+US+Qatar welfare system, they have literal nazi shit in their textbooks, they have their stupid religious excuses too, what do you think a young man raised in that filth would do with his free time except slitting throats and launching rockets?
Utterly psychotic. Israeli supporters, India bjp supporters, China ccp lap dogs and Russian shills all share the same brain I swear.
True, just look at Japan and Germany. They took so much devastation, yet they can rise above others because they don't have the same mentality as these people.
What the actual fuck are you talking about. The Japanese literally used suicide attacks and were so brainwashed they believed suicide was preferable to enemy capture. The Germans literally committed the multiple genocides. They were rehabilitated over time but it took time and effort. Both committed horrific atrocities, yet through international effort, are largely reformed.
That's the fuck I was talking about. They admitted their defeat, and moved on to rebuild themselves
Japan and Germany both received massive amounts of financial support and investment to basically shape them into allies. If Germany/Japan had just been beaten the shit of and left to fend for themselves under financial and social sanction then we would have already had WW3. What a ridiculous comparison that you need to stop using for this racist tirade of yours.
I'm not being racist, it's just that most of you fail to see the reality of the situation here. Germany and Japan know when to admit defeat. Do you really think they got the assistance straight away after the war? No, they sort themselves out first, and rebuilt their society. The fundings came much later. Germany even had to pay for the cost of the war for years. Over the course of 80 years, you think how many fundings palestine had received from muslim countries AND the west? The funding which were used to buy weapons to attack their neighbour and further radicalized their own children. Don't forget that it was the palestine who rejected the two-state solution and the muslim countries who jointly attacked israel first. Even now some muslim country still rejects israel's right to exist.
I was an avid supporter of palestine for decades, blindly supporting them just because we had the same religion. But now, I'm also thinking from the perspective of the israeli here. If my surrounding neighbours keep threatening my existence, will I just sit around and let them plot my demise? If they just focus on improving themselves, I wouldn't mind with whatever they're doing with their lives.
Oh god. My heart goes out to the civilians of Gaza.
Cool so they're announcing they're doing war crimes?
Potentially, sure. Things like carpet bombing civilian areas, certain uses of minefields, certain munitions, etc are banned by convention but the thing about the Geneva Conventions are that they are a mutual treaty. Your nation agrees not to do it to other signatories or nations or forces that have otherwise agreed to the limitations as well.
In this case? No. Not at all justified. Hamas might not agree to the Conventions, and thus don't benefit from the protections, but the moment they suspended elections they lost the right to claim they represent the Gaza Strip, even if Israel didn't claim it as territory regardless.
Israel is a signatory of the Conventions, and the Gaza Strip is their claimed land, this is a war crime against people they claim as their own, the actions of what amounts to a domestic terrorist network is irrelevant to whether they can starve people into submission.
A standard genocidal tactic of imperialists everywhere, mind you, from the Irish famine, to the Holodomor, to the Bengal Famines.
Israel doesn't claim Gaza though
Murder is against the law in western countries but of someone tries to kill you, you can kill them in self defense.
So yea of someone is committing war crimes against you, you can fo ahead and fight back to get them to stop
War crimes are war crimes, doesn't matter if the other side started them first. Israel is stooping just as low as Hamas is with these tactics, you can and should fight in self defense without targeting Civilians
It's legally how the Geneva Conventions work. You are only bound to them if the other side agrees to it as well.
However, Hamas is not the Gaza Strip, it is not Palestine, and Israel claims the Strip as its territory anyways so to claim the civilian population doesn't accept the Convention so they aren't bound by it is ludicrous.
so wait. Siege is a war crime? Not taking a side, I'm just a technicalities kind of guy. Its not like locking people in a house. And don't hostage negotiators do just that in the US? (Could be just on tv). But it's a big place. Fuel and electricity are nice to haves. They should have some amount of food and water stored up. And the southern border is with egypt, so I assume they can't actually do anything about that. Doesn't seem like a straight up war crime. But I have never read yhe definitions they have at the UN.
Using hunger as a weapons against a populace is 100% a war crime, yes.
I just took a gander at the list as a refresher, and it is not 100% a war crime. You can argue this is an unjustified or excessive attack on civilians, but a judge may rule that is is required to defend against the enemy (Hamas).
Item 2.b.25 from the list seems to match up:
"Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions; "
It's not really about religion. It's about tribalism and sabre rattling.
One side is barbaric, another side cowardly, so their sabre rattling doesn't look very impressive, rather disgusting in both cases.
Religion is like guns, you can use it either for good or evil :)
It's just crazy to me that Israel went from forced migration, following ghetto concentration, to concentrating others with the same dehumanizing rhetoric in the space if a generation.
Not to excuse Hamas' actions in the slightest, the rocket attack is unjustifiable no matter anyone's political beliefs. But it boggles my mind that a national identity can flip so drastically that Palestine can be put into de facto concentration camps by people who remember being in camps (albeit in tiny surviving numbers nowadays).
Propaganda works folks. Don't be a sucker.
It's more understandable when you listen to the Jewish arguments about needing to protect themselves against people who want to kill them, they see themselves as being inside the walls and defending themselves so they see their actions as justifiable because the alternative is another genocide.
It's hard because neither side is entirely right or wrong, Hamas is a terrorist organisation that gets help from other terrorist organisations - the thousands of missiles they fired over the last few days didn't come from nowhere, we can't deny that Iran is a repressive and brutal regime that would love to see all Jewish people dead for religious reasons, just like they hate gay people, women, and so many other groups.
That of course isn't to say there aren't awfull racist Jewish people who hate Muslims, but Israel as a nation is starting to work well with many Arab nations such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The country has a lot of problems but is doing a lot of good things in the region also, and it's doing them working with many Arabs and Arab nations. They see themselves as trying to be good people and they know if they tore down their walls then they'd be massacred, it is understandable how they justify looking the other way when the IDF are brutal or their government makes questionable choices.
That's untrue, Israel offered peace a lot of times to Palestine before the Hamas took control in 2007. After Hamas it of course was never an option, the main purpose Hamas sees in itself is the complete destruction of Israel
I agree.
If only the Ukrainians did the same and offered the "peace" that Russia offers them.
Just compromise and give up your ancestral lands.
Many have pointed this out, but I'll say it again: this only affects innocent people.
Hamas has long stockpiled food, water, fuel, guns, and ammunition. They will be the last to run out.
This does nothing but radicalize the rest of the population, something I would assume the zionist government wants.
What about the hand that is wrapped around your throat...?
Maybe don't be a hand that feeds. Palestinians didn't choose to live in the Gaza Strip. They were relegated to the Gaza Strip.
"Man those slaves don't understand how nice they have it. We provide them a hole to sleep in and food and water whenever we have some to spare or remember to give it to them...
God why can't they just be good and respect how much worse we could treat them?!
Ugh they act like they are humans when you can see how feral they truly are, watch I'll beat this one and it doesn't even learn it's lesson, just gets angrier and more deranged.
Well guess we just have to show the wild animals that they aren't people and if they continue to bite the hand that feeds them we take away their kids to punish them for thinking they have any control.
Stay subservient cause I'm better and more human than you."
Hey. Go fuck yourself.
Blaming the oppressed for being upset about being oppressed and downtrodden is a dick move. I figured maybe hyperbold would make you see that you are a jackass but nah you'd happily be holding the whip it seems.
Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react. To keep the hate flowing is the goal of all extremists.
Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/...
Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
Please refrain from bad faith arguments and stuff like „Israel should dissolve itself“ (because you and I know, that’s not going to happen)
Hamas has made it clear that taking down the wall would result in tens of thousands of dead Israelis. It's impossible to negotiate with an adversary which has vowed your demise at any price.
I think it’s clear that you’re soundly in the pro Palestine camp after they murdered hundreds of Israelis. You find a way to justify that which works for you, that’s your business, it isn’t reflective of reality, it’s just your take on an issue that goes beyond your age by a number of decades.
If you’re purely in defense of one group or the other here, you’re just wrong and what’s worse is you’re feeding into the exact narratives each group is desperate to push.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that just committed the 3rd largest terrorist attack in human history. Israel is committing war crimes in retaliation and will no doubt invade and occupy Gaza which will cause thousands more deaths.
The complexities of this geopolitical issue have gone well beyond ‘this is all Israel’s fault, this is all Palestines fault’. If you can’t get past that, you’re just another ignorant fuck spewing half baked ideas on the internet that has no real idea what they’re talking about.
That sort of rhetoric is better served on twitter, not here.
There is a power imbalance. Israel could kill everyone in Gaza, with or without the wall. Taking down the wall would result in too many Palestinians killing too many innocent Israelis, so it will never happen. Nor should it.
You do realize that Israel withdrew completely from Gaza territory in 2005, right? They haven't occupied any land in the area for almost 20 years.
You left out the part where they put them under siege and control the influx of water, fuel, electricity, goods, and people.
So they haven't occupied them, they have just put them in an open air prison.
It's the sort of thing that happens if you keep attacking your neighbors. Hells, not even Egypt wants anything to do with the Hamas gov:t in Gaza. That's how bad it is.
Isreal now sees Hamas as an existential threat. The only way to end the bloodshed would be Hamas offering an unconditional surrender.
The only way to end the bloodshed would be Hamas offering an unconditional surrender.
And then what happens? Will Palestinians be guaranteed their basic rights? If Palestinians are not given the chance to be full citizens and have self-determination, this will only repeat in another 2-3 years.
I do not think you understand how bad this is going to get for Palestinians in Gaza. Hamas has just perpetrated the worst terrorist attack in Isreals history.
From everything I am reading these are not just retaliatory strikes. Isreal is preparing for a full offensive on Gaza involving tanks, artillery and infantry. This could very well end with Gaza looking like Grozny, Mariupol, or Bakhmut.
I hope that doesn't happen, but if Hamas cared at all about the Palestinian people they would do everything in their power to avoid that. Unfortunately they only care about power and I think this is going to get very ugly in the next phase of the war.
How the fuck do you negotiate with a state that does not beleive Israel should exist?
The Palestinians brought this on themselves.
They support a government that refuses to talk peace. The position of Hamas, in its founding documents, is that the state of Israel should be exterminated. You reap what you sow.
False. From its inception, Israel has recognized the need for Palestinian autonomous territory.
For better or worse (and frankly, I take quite a lot of issue with how Israel was founded, looking at you Misters Sykes and Picot), Israel exists now. Most of its population was born there and knows no other home. To suggest that Israel should no longer exist is to endorse the violent elimination of millions of people from their homes, and we've literally just seen what Hamas' method of doing so would look like. Even setting aside ethics, the fact of the matter is that Israel will not let that happen and will do everything in its power to ensure it.
That said, what absolutely should not continue is any further expansion of Israel into Palestinian lands. West Bank settlements are considered illegal by literally every country in the world and are a deliberate method of ensuring that a Palestinian state is never viable. There is a, now almost entirely implausible, viable solution where Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, swaps some land in the West Bank to account for East Jerusalem, stops the blockade of Gaza, and allows the creation of a Palestinian state that operates as a close security partner.
What will never happen is any future where Israel no longer exists, no matter how much it might be argued about where it should have been created or anything else. Practically all nations of the Americas shouldn't exist. Most European nations exist out of random decisions by monarchs. Tons of African and Middle Eastern nations were created by dropping some random lines on a map. This is a rabbit hole that does not end, and anyone who actually cares about finding a peaceful path forward has to accept that Israel exists today.
"How can we support colonisation and genocide in this day and age."
"Israel shouldn’t exist."
I think the answer was inside yourself the entire time.
How do you say I'm antisemtic without saying I'm antisemitic.
You did it Hamas!
"We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly."
This. Hamas leaders either have so very low IQ to not be able predict how israel would retaliate, or they just don't care about their own people's lives. Hamas and their terrorist goons do not deserved to be called a human.
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Jesus fucking Christ.
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