‘We can’t confuse Hamas with all Palestinians’: Spain says amid aid review
3 years ago by NightOwl to c/worldnews
Really makes you think about why Hamas is so radicalized, doesn't it? It's not like you can pull a Muslim out of a hat and radicalize them. People in a stable, healthy, and fair socioeconomic position do not see violence as an answer. People who live under constant oppression, inequality, and fear do.
And the irony is that Israel allowed Hamas to be funded by Arabic countries 25 years ago when it was a way to weaken Arafat and the PLO. Everything in this area is fucked beyond parody. No authority on either side has any idea about morality.
The same parallels with how the US funded what would later become Al Qaeda to fuck with the Soviets. Then they did 9/11.
The mujahideen fighters, yeah.
Go Reagan! /s
It's not ironic at all. Arafat and the PLO were TERRORISTS with no interest in peace whatsoever, and who had a stranglehold on all political power.
It's not like Israel had a non-terrorist faction to work with.
Uh... UH.... UH...... How do you think the Oslo accords happened?
You're describing roughly half the planet
They arent justifying hamas, they are highlighting how israel actively created the environment that gave hamas the capability to do this.
I've seen non-stop justification of Hamas in these threads. "Terrorism is inexcusable, BUT" and then they explain why they are excusing it.
Say that to Israel. The average age of the population in Gaza is 18. Unless there was a population boom of unprecedented proportions 18 years ago. (There wasn't) Something seriously wrong is going on.
I don't support Hamas's attack. But Israel isn't the victim. The people of Palestine and even Israel are the victims. And ultimately, the government of Israel is the aggressor. They could stop this. But they don't. They just make excuses and dehumanize the Palestinians. Then act surprised when they get the response they want.
The average age of the population in Gaza is 18.
Of note: The blockade of Gaza is going on for a good 16 years, now. About half of Gazans grew up under that regime and they're just about reaching fighting age now, already having gone through "what might I possibly be in the future" age and, well, there's not exactly many options are there.
"I don't think any sane person is justifying the horrors committed by Hamas. But"
"But"
Dude, you're doing it right now.
Source BBC News on the hostage situation "The focus appears to be on a swap involving women and children - including Israelis and other nationals - in an exchange for Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails."
This is the second thread I've seen today with your awful takes. Probably worth a block, but I don't believe in it. Just know that you're super fucking wrong.
Social media is full of people saying "terrorism is inexcusable, BUT ..." and then going on to excuse terrorism happening to the Jews in Israel.
You can't understand not wanting to leave but instead voting via democratic process only to be dissatisfied/alarmed that more authoritarian, right wing demagogues are pushing the Overton Window right and eroding democracy?
Do you live on Mars? This is happening everywhere.
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but if half of them want peace and are secular, why don't they just leave and go live somewhere else?
To quote some "very fine people" from a major western nation. "Jews will not replace us".
Lots of places aren't exactly welcoming to them.
Why should the Palestinians pay for German crimes with their blood?
I think this comment is pretty unfair. You're right that there's a historical demonization of Jews that continues to this day, but i don't think it makes sense to suggest that the only solution is for all the Jews to hide out in Israel (or some other Jewish nation/state).
That said i don't think it makes sense to say they have to leave for that reason either, or that it's the smart thing to do or whatever. Why not stay? If only there were more secular Jews in Israel who opposed apartheid.
Plus Israel's dickery gets blind support from America. I'd guess if the Americans demanded actual concessions from Israel this would no longer be a problem, they'd have two states already. As it is, they have every economic and political incentive to just squeeze the Palestinians harder.
You mean the American government surely. Americans can't even get our government to do shit for Americans lmao
I'll side with the ones NOT pledging to kill all Jews and Christians. But that's just because I like my head attached to my body.
I'm very comfortable siding with the group that doesn't want to behead me. But you do you.
This part always makes me feel ambivalent about the Israelites in the conflict. Israeli citizens are complicit victims, and that's a contradiction but it's also true. Civilians are getting hurt and dying and that's not okay. However those same Israeli citizens are also supporting a basically genocidal government. Thousands of guidanceless rockets were fired at Isreal, are they expected not to respond? Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been victimized for their entire lives, are they expected not to respond?
Palestinians = people who empowered, support, and protect Hamas.
It's been 17 years since the last election. Assuming only 18 and up could vote, that means only people current around 34 and up could vote. So the bulk of Palestinians didn't even have a chance to vote in that election. Not to mention that they were given the choice between a corrupt faction (Fatah) and a possible less corrupt faction (Hamas).
why can't they hold elections?
Hamas sucks, I wish they were never allowed to assume any power. But if Hamas doesn't control the water, electricity, food, currency, internet, or borders in Gaza; who should the Palestinians revolt against?
So you believe Hamas is the only problem here and once they are killed off the violence will stop and relations can be normalized?
Here here. At least somebody has some fucking balls. Perhaps because it's not a mess they created.
Quite write, my mistake.
...my mistake.
I think you meant "missed steak."
Go Spain.
People forget Israel is the one with the power and creating this issue. If Israel actually backs off and treats Palestine as at least human, then I think (and hope) most people will see that Hamas needs to be destroyed as they are a terrorist group.
They did that, and terror attacks stopped. This basically marked the end of the second Intifada. Then they blockaded Gaza, and the terror attacks came back. Then there was a ceasefire in 2012, with one of the conditions the lifting of the blockade. That didn't happen, so the terror attacks came back, and we got the 2014 war. See the pattern here?
I mean if you live in a country controlled by a terrorist group that kills anyone who is not their side, and someone goes to your door and asks if you support them... What would you say?
It's easy to dismiss this issue by thinking they have the same freedom of speech as we do in the west, and they can have political opinions without any repercussion.
Same can be said about north Korea.
Let's hope the majority are forced into supporting terrorists as their leaders (that sounds so wrong), but let's not fool ourselves into believing that a significant number of them don't support Hamas.
The leader of Hamas is in year 18 of his 4 year term, and no one seems to have a problem with it.
no one seems to have a problem with it.
No one alive seems to have a problem with it. They literally can't complain. Opposed and terrorised by Israel on one side, and Hamas on the other. Defying either is a death sentence.
yeah yeah yeah, and not all Germans were Nazis.
In 1919, Germany and the Allied Powers signed the Treaty of Versailles. A major component of this treaty was Germany recognizing her role in WW1, and agreeing to make significant reparations, in the form of territory, money, and disarment.
In 1939, under Hitler's leadership, Germany invades Poland. Germany surrendered in 1945, and in 1947, the US began the Marshal plan, dumping a significant amount of money into Europe, with the 3rd largest benefactor being West Germany, receiving 11% of the total funding.
Empirically, caring about the wellbeing of the German people was a far more successful policy than punishing them.
Also, most of the Germans attempting to flee Nazi Germany were not Nazi's despite the fact that many countries (including the US) refused them entry out of feer of Nazis.
Well based on the population growth in Gaza, the survivors seem to been doing quite well. Well, up until this past weekend.
Hamas is the only group in this world standing up for the Palestinian people, so I would support them too, we're I locked up in that open air prison, my family and friends being constantly murdered for profit.
From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...
Of the 193 member states of the United Nations, 138 (71.5%) have recognised the State of Palestine as of 31 July 2019.
Hamas are terrorists and are only using Palestinians as pawns. Hamas give the fascists in the Israeli government the justification to commit their crimes.
Exactly this. The fact that people can't parse this out is insane to me.
They have to be able to leave Gaza in order to receive asylum.
Gaza is pretty much an open air prison that you can't really leave all that easily.
It has ALWAYS been the case that the largest provider of aid to the Palestinians is ...
Israel.
It's not even close.
All these other countries, Spain included, do fuck all for the Palestinians, or anything to help solve the crisis.
The entire Gaza strip holds just 2 million people.
If the nations of the world actually wanted this over, they could open their doors to Palestinians. It would take just 20 nations each assimilating 100,000 refugees, and this nightmare would be over.
How about we took 100,000 Israelis each and give the Palestinians their whole country back?
You don't like that idea, do you?
The difference would be that Palestinians would love to leave the, what do you guys like to call it? "Open air prison".
You can try to move the Israelis if you want. Let me know how that goes for you.
Yes, the Palestinians would like to return to their homes, in the region that by all rights should be called Palestine.
"It has always been the case that the largest provider of aid to slaves is...
Their owners.
It's not even close.
All these abolitionists do fuck all for slaves, or anything to help solve the crisis."
Israel has enforced a blockade of Gaza continually since 2007, which has effectively cut the GDP by 50%, and even after aid. 40% of the population lives in abject poverty. Unemployment is 40%. 65% of all babies are anemic. 40% of the population dont have access to sewage, and much of the area experiences power outages up to 16 hours a day. Well, it's 24 hours now since all food and electricity have been cut off.
Oh they're slaves now?
Interesting.
See in a slavery system, owners profit from slave labor.
In the case of Israel, it sure sounds like in every conceivable way Palestinians are a drain on their resources.
Seems like the aid money Israel spends is strictly charity.
And what prompted those blockades, btw? Do you recall? Do you think it might have had something to do with the endless terrorist attacks?
I'm not saying the Palestinians are slaves... I'm just saying that Israel is largely responsible for the circumstances there now... just live slavers were responsible for the circumstances of the slaves.
There's a reason it's called an "open air prison." We have to feed our prisoners too, but I don't think anyone sane considers that investment "charity. "
Terrorism justifies retaliatory attacks against terrorists. Not keeping 2 million civilians poor, starving, and hopeless. All that making people hopeless does is make more terrorists.
Pretty sure you need to buy a dictionary.
How about those nations take all the Israelis and then Palestine can have its land? You know what, please tell me what countries would you happily sign up to have you and all of your families shipped to so that where you live can be given to some other nation that you hate?
Don’t like that idea? I wonder why
If you think you can move the israelis give it a try.
So they keep oppressing the Palestinians and it’s all good? Okay
Oh, I see. Gaza is "their homes" when we talk about relocating them, but "an open air prison" at all other times?
It has ALWAYS been the case that the largest provider of aid to the Palestinians is …
Israel.
Uh... Maybe part of that is because Israel actively engineered the current situation where Palestinians don't have functional states?
It's not so easy, again due to being in this conflict for decades, most of the people are not able to asimilate so easily and Europe had already a pretty bad experience in 2014 with the Syrian Crysis. Even if offered relocation, they most likely would end up in some kind of reservations and be isolated on relocation. The majority of Europeans are afraid of people coming from middle east.
It not just the Syrian crisis they have bad experience with. Many European countries let lots of poor Muslims from North Africa and Turkey in as labor migrants between the 50’s and the 80’s. And many of those European countries are now dealing with the negative consequences from the descendants of those migrants. Among those migrant communities there is, even after a few generations, still high unemployment rates, high dropout rates and high crime rates (and some of those criminals later formed terrorist cells in Europe). Even compared to other migrant communities the numbers are bad. And the main cause of that is that their grandparents who came here didn’t integrate properly into society and didn’t raise their kids well and of course instilled conservative Islamic ideas in their kids’ head (antisemitism, homophobia etc) so those kids also aren’t integrated when they turned into adults. And that’s because most of those Muslim labor migrants were illiterate subsistence farmers with no education and religiously conservative. People in Europe are rightfully afraid that the same shit will happen again when lots of low educated people from the Middle East will come to Europe.
Forget your imaginary scenario. How about focusing on real existing facts? How many Palestinians have the other Muslim countries in the Middle East accepted? How is it a blockade by Israel when there is an Egyptian crossing that nobody ever bothers mentioning? Where is the aid going?
Exactly.
The Palestinian refugee crisis was deliberately manufactured by the surrounding Arab nations. They could easily have welcomed in their fellow Muslims, but... Nah. Better to use them as political pawns for the better part of a century.
The mass downvoting on comments on this thread shows that the Islamophobes are brigading.
There is literally nothing to disagree with, other than if you object to Muslim/Palestinian people existing.
53 percent of all Palestinians want Hamas to rule. Only 14 percent support the opposition party.
APPROVAL for Hamas among Palestinians was as high as 73 percent in the last few years.
So don't pretend that the majority of these people don't support those terrorists. Palestinians have been empowering and protecting terrorists for as long as any of you have been alive.
Sympathy for the innocent Palestinians is great. But let's not pretend these are a people who are all really torn up about the murder of Jewish children.
53 percent
You're referring to this article, aren't you?
Read just one paragraph further, emphasis mine:
Head pollster Khalil Shikaki, who has been surveying Palestinian public opinion for more than two decades, called it a “dramatic” shift, but said it also resembles previous swings toward Hamas during times of confrontation. Those all dissipated within three to six months as Hamas failed to deliver on promises of change.
Sadly there's not many numbers to go by. But have a later poll, some snippets:
Also notable is that Gazans continue to express disapproval of Hamas’ policies towards Israel. About half (53%) agree at least somewhat that “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders,” a percentage that has held steady over the last three years. 59% of Gazans also agree that Hamas should give up its armed units in favor of PA officers in Gaza. Likewise, nearly two-thirds of Gazans would agree at least somewhat with the need for Hamas to preserve the cease-fire in both Gaza and the West Bank.
As well as:
Specifically, Gazans believe that Palestinians should push more against corruption in the PA and Hamas. Most (87%) of Gazans would also like Hamas and the PA to allow free and fair elections, a notable 20-point difference from West Bankers (65%) and East Jerusalemites (66%).
...so, no, short story short Palestinians aren't exactly happy about their dictators.
Can you post this all over Lemmy?
Nobody has else come to their aid, and they've gotten less and less from this "peace process". What Hamas did is wrong, but remove all hope from people and you'll be shocked by what they'll fall for.
Moral of the story: neither Israel nor Palestine nor any country in the middle east is serious about achieving peace that benefits both parties, so now it's up to the global community. Of course, with Israel's posture, I'm expecting them to kill all Palestinians and shrug when accused of ethnic cleansing.
I'd say Israel as an apartheid state has done all the empowering that Hamas needs to be in control.
Terrorist groups tend to not just spring from nothing.
Okay, keep victim blaming
Are Ukrainians targeting civilians by the hundreds?
What was the percentage of black Americans that support the black panthers in the 50s/60s. What was the percentage of Vietnamese people supported the Vietcong? What was the percentage of Indian people the supported their violent driven separatist during the British Raj?
And?
Where are you quoting these fake sounding numbers from?
The same Hamas that uses them as meat shields?
"Help" my ass, fucking troll.
Pick a narrative? When did I claim they supported them?
Hamas came in power in 2006(17 years ago).
It was funded by Netanyahu and the Mossad against left secular PLO on purpose - this is indeed like a 911 situation as he says; it's literally blowback and furthermore likely intentionally allowed to happen given what we've heard from the Egyptians about prior warning to Israel which they ignored (Israel confirmed that they received this intelligence).
Actually the big forces carving out lands for them completely irresponsibly like they're all the same has doomed them to be in a state of war for as long as they exist.
Religion exacarbates the problem and creates extremism but violence would very well exist without it.
Spoken like someone who has never faced a day of adversity in their entire life.
spoken like someone who has never had religious nutjobs take over their government.
Oh but we can. Oh but we will.
The last bit of sympathy the west had for Muslims vanished after 9/11. The US helped them out as much as it benefited them in Afghanistan against the Russians, and we had a last hurrah for Kosovo when they were being massacred by the Serbs.
But that's gone now. You've gone from slightly insular neighbours, to terrifying beardy men with hooks for hands who hate our way of life. That's Bin Laden's legacy.
Western support for Israel is far from unanimous, but our indifference to Palestine is. Israel could bomb Gaza to dust and bulldoze it into the sea, and at this point the most you'll hear from us is a stern "steady on lads".
I don’t know who exactly the “we” and “you” are referring to in your comment. But the Irish have been long been supporters of the Palestinian people no doubt due to their experience during the Troubles. I’d say the British people (not necessarily the government) support Palestine too. My brother has been to a number of pro-Palestine marches in the UK before this latest escalation of violence.
Speak for yourself.
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