Gaza says Israel's strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people
3 years ago by yakultdrinkr to c/world
- Hamas-run government says Israeli strikes on Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza killed at least 195 Palestinians, with concerns raised by the UN that these could constitute war crimes.
- Evacuation of foreign nationals from Gaza is underway, with 320 already crossed into Egypt; about 7,500 are expected to leave within two weeks.
- The strikes targeted Hamas military leaders and infrastructure, with Israel’s campaign responding to Hamas' cross-border attacks from Oct. 7.
- U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is set to visit Israel and Jordan to discuss the conflict and the need to minimize civilian casualties.
Media Bias Fact Check (Reuters):
Overall, we rate Reuters Least Biased based on objective reporting and Very High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing of information with minimal bias and a clean fact check record.
The world long ago has proven to care very little about actual human beings. The world cares only about politics and power, everything is power struggles no matter the human cost.
Honestly I am sick and disgusted how for example the US is using another conflict for nationalist propaganda, e.g.
Posting on social media Biden wrote: "Today, thanks to American leadership, we secured safe passage for wounded Palestinians and for foreign nationals to exit Gaza.
They reiterate that Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately kill civilians, while also vetoing every UN resolution calling for a ceasefire or even a pause to ease the humanitarian situation.
The world is appalled by 1400 victims, but at the same time turning a blind eye at the human toll on the Palestinian side.
By the end of this conflict the number of civilian casualties would be much higher, the number of traumatised kids and people, who have lost relatives, and/or roof over their heads would be even higher and this would have solved absolutely nothing as a new wave of desperate people would be pushed into radicalization and hatred towards their oppressor.
RIP peace and human rights!
The world isn’t turning a blind eye, western powers are. Even then, literally everyone in the UN except the US and Israel voted for a ceasefire.
The current Israeli government seems to be Fascist and historically Fascists aren't exactly known for caring about the lives of "lesser races", refraining from sacrificing even "their own people" "for the greater good" or once they're engaged in politics by violent means to stop unless force by an even more powerful force.
Given that those Fascists have the unwavering support of the US (as well as from countries like France, the UK and Germany), they will likely continue the killings until they achieve what they themselves described as a "Second Nakba"
Speaking of facism, Zionists tried to recruit Nazis to fight against the British back in mandate Palestine.
Fascinating, thanks for sharing that. Lehi was classified as a terrorist group by Israel although they were Zionists. As the article states, most Jewish militant groups at the time allied with the UK against Germany, not the other way around.
Wait until you hear about operation paperclip!
Lehi became Likud, the party of Netanyahu. Currently in power. Their own party members are all over Israeli TV advocating for the genocide of all Palestinians in Gaza and cheering on every bombardment. The number one target of most Jewish militant groups was the British. As they were the authority in mandate Palestine. You are truly ignorant of history.
Wasn’t Hamas’ attack a revenge for past stolen land and actions too? They’re the same. Hamas is just stupider because they are weaker and will never win by violence
Engaging groups like Hamas, isis, or other groups that are highly integrated into the civilian population is ugly business. Hamas is not a conventional state actor with military assets on bases or mobilized for action. It’s uncles and sons and brothers in the homes of family.
The carnage in Gaza is horrifying, but Hamas isn’t likely to form lines and face the IDF in honorable field combat.
Removing the threat posed by Hamas will have an absolutely horrific cost in civilian lives. After oct 7, “the world” seems to agree that Israel has some right to remove that threat. Hamas leadership crossed a line, and like all war the cost will primarily be paid by the ordinary people who were unlucky enough to be born in the war zone.
Hamas is an Insurrection Movement against an occupying power and said occupying power killing more Palestinians is just going to give it more popular support and even more combatants, unless the objective of said occupying power is to "solve" the problem by killing all Palestinians.
Even putting the morality of the Occupation aside, the correct military way of going about this would be Counter Insurgency, but that means actually listening to and making the lives of Palestinians better, not making it worse sprinkled with random violence against civilians as the Israeli government has consistently done for 7 decades, so the only other military alternative that stands a chance of success is Genocide (i.e. stop the support for the Insurgency by killing or expelling the entire population).
I would never defend Israel’s shitty colonialist behavior over the last 7 decades. A horrible colonialist idea followed by generations of stupid mistakes and vile actions.
The question was “when is the world going to put a stop to this”. The answer seems to be that “the world” is going to let Israel attempt to dislodge Hamas. Eliminating Hamas is going to be a disgusting bloodbath and probably will just sew the seeds of the next conflict. The alternative is telling the Israeli people that they deserve to having Viking raiders pillaging the borders because the antisemitic leaders of “the greatest generation” picked a pretty horrible solution to what they called “the Jewish question”.
No good answers, no good guys.
One problem is that certain countries in said World seem to have picked up the "giving material support to those committing genocide" option, which goes way beyond the more neutral "closing your eyes" option that would seem to be the safest one since - and I agree with you on this - there really are no good options at this point given what's happenned so far - Israel has really been fucking up the Palestinians but forcing Israel to actually stop doing that and give back the Palestinian Land right now (which is probably not possible) would be rewarding Hamas for its choice of committing terrorist acts and would incentivised them and others to do more of it.
The second problem is that there are a lot of ways of going about the whole "fighting Hamas" thing and "the world" is not just letting Israel attempt to disloge Hamas but actually letting Israel do it in unnecessarilly bloody ways (the blockade of food and water being a prime example) - even genuine self-defense is not a valid justification for choosing to do it in the way that causes the most suffering to civilians.
Whilst I agree that there are no good choices, I believe the whole "unwavering support for Israel" choice which has tied certain nations to what is already a Genocide is almost certainly influencing the current Israeli government to feel that they have total impunity and will get away with killing tens or even hundreds of thousands of people for the purpose of triggering what they themselves describe as their objective - a "Second Nakba" - so the choices they are making are immensely worse than those they would be making if they feared repercursion from going too far (this is why I keep blaming western powers such as the US, the UK, France and Germany - the "unwavering" and uncritical nature of their support is what is enabling the Israli leadership to turn a "no good choices" situation into the far more extreme situation which is a Genocide).
Israel has been occupying Palestine and killing innocent civilians decades before Hamas was a thing.
And no one has yet proposed a better way to stop Hamas from firing rockets and prevent another attack on Israel. The only advice people give to Israel is "just stop fighting and die". The world left Hamas alone to fester in Gaza and now that they hit Israel too hard and their end was decided everyone and his dog cares for the people of Gaza.
Israel is the most powerful military force in the region. They’re not going to die if they stop the fighting. In fact, the current fighting is doing half of hamas’ work for them. Israel is hamas biggest recruiting tool. Peace is the only way to end this conflict.
Israel has been occupying Palestine and killing innocent civilians and stealing their homes and lands decades before Hamas was even a thing.
When will the World stop Israel indulging in this Blood thirsty revenge ritual ?
I suspect it will end when they have achieved safety for themselves. Unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza didn't work, negotiating with Hamas didn't work, perhaps destroying north Gaza, (and I suspect eventually annexing it,) to create distance from this endlessly violent and belligerent territory will keep their population safe from their explicitly genocidal enemy.
Israel never should have funded Hamas as a counter balance to the PLO: https://theintercept.com/...
Yes indeed. In hindsight that seems obvious, but at the time it didn't. Generally speaking divide and conquer is a good strategy against one's opponents so I understand why they tried it. Israel's system of incentives didn't mean much to a radical Islamist enemy who wants to drive them into the sea at all costs. It kind of reminds me of how the US inadvertently created Al Qaeda via the Mujahadeen, which directly led to the 9/11 attacks.
Actual Reuters headline:
Hamas says Israel's strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people
OP’s headline :
Gaza says Israel's strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people
No editorializing from me. Reuters changed the title after I submitted the post. You can see it cached by Photon here:
So... Shouldn't you now change it to match what Reuters currently shows? (For those that don't know, you can edit titles, unlike with Reddit.)
EDIT: Downvote this all you want, but since they can be edited shouldn't titles be updated to match an organization's corrected headline? If I'm in the minority, why not?
Good reminder that titles can be updated. Reuters had already changed the title again to a completely different update. I'd also rather not try keeping up with it and to instead leave the version from when people first read and began commenting about it.
I don't see a problem here. I trust their numbers. They have released lists with all the people killed by Israel before and parts of those lists were confirmed by relatives living abroad. "Hamas-run X,Y,Z" is just a cheap way of trying to delegitimize palestinian deaths.
Like the 500 dead in the self inflicted hospital parking lot? Come on.
Hamas is a motivated and non-credible source for details.
Hamas has launched over 35 THOUSAND rockets over the years, which has barely killed 69 people, yet somehow now all of the sudden such a rocket fails and lands on a hospital and HUNDREDS die? Sure, so be it, but why would I even believe the IDF on this one? They haven't even provided any kind of proof. They provided a video which many organizations have debunked as being completely unrelated to the hospital rocket. Hell, even the New York Times debunked that video, and they're definitely west aligned.
That’s the point- 500 people didn’t die, it’s a made up number to grab headlines.
Hamas never made that claim.
It was a doctor being interviewed by al-jazeera. Even then it was a mis-translation of what he said that western media just ran with and never fact checked.
Please stop spreading misinformation to serve as a way to delegitimize one side.
There are plenty of REAL facts you can use.
On the night of the explosion, the Hamas-run Gazan health ministry put the toll at 500 or more dead, which it later changed to “hundreds.”
Gaza's Hamas-run media office
Its weird seeing both Hamas and non-Hamas government related bodies. Kind of confusing juggling Gaza without Hamas, Gaza with Hamas, and Hamas's militant wing specifically.
Hamas is the defacto government of Palestine for close to ten years now. It's hard to untangle because they are genuinely intertwined. There isn't a significant difference between "government of Gaza" and "Hamas".
There's more to Palestine than Gaza, so while your 3rd sentence is very much true and more central to the issue at hand, the first one is quite incorrect and might lead people to forget about Abbas/Fatah.
Hamas is literally the elected government of Palestine. They are the authority in Gaza that releases these numbers.
Correction: Hamas is the government body of Gaza, not of all Palestine, which includes the West Bank.
True, but it’s not like that election wasn’t ripe with controversy around its legitimacy. At the very least there was notable voter intimidation being practiced by a militarized group.
I'm certainly not endorsing the Hamas leadership of Gaza or their legitimacy, but the fact remains that there isn't a real distinction between "Gaza leaders" and "Hamas" at this point.
Hamas is literally the elected government of Palestine.
Hamas is the government of Gaza, not all of Palestine. Palestine also includes the west bank which is under Fatah/PA leadership, they lost a civil war to Hamas in Gaza after Hamas was elected there. They haven't held another election since.
Thank you for the correction, I have edited accordingly.
You could also correct the part about them being voted in. They had around 40% of the votes in a multiparty election, kicked out their opposers and took over. The current population of Gaza is 50% under 18, most people don't live beyond 65 due to low life expectancy, and that last election was 16 years ago. They were not democratically elected and the majortiy of Gazans haven't voted for them.
You're right. Reuters changed it after this was posted.
Hamas never made that claim.
It was a doctor being interviewed by al-jazeera. Even then it was a mis-translation of what he said that western media just ran with and never fact checked.
Please stop spreading misinformation to serve as a way to delegitimize one side. There are plenty of REAL facts you can use.
War sucks. Belligerent cities are often bombed. Civilians always suffer. This is the inevitable consequence of that city's government slaughtering hundreds of civilians of a state with superior military capabilities; I'm not sure what they thought would happen.
New euphemism dropped: “Belligerent cities” is the new refugee camp.
Gaza's government attacked Israel in an act of war. This means they are a belligerent against Israel in this conflict. The population centers they control, aka, cities, are being attacked in response. I'm not using a euphemism, I'm calling this exactly what it is.
Unless the people of the city are the same as the government, I don't see how you can say the population is belligerent. I don't think we should say the Israeli citizens are belligerent because their government funded Hamas and are doing a genocide.
You could literally take your statement reverse the attacker and defender, and use it for the October 7th attack.
Either your truly neutral, or you have an agenda. If your neutral, I applaud you and your commitment to pointing out each sides wrongs.
If you have an agenda, justifying an attack in such a way that it justifies reprisal attacks just invites infinite justified violence
Sure, but it's Gaza being bombed now. So should have tried a different approach probably.
Sue for peace, accept the least terrible terms you can.
At one time Palestinians had so much support all their neighbors went to war for them, this goodwill appears to have since evaporated due to their behaviors and unwillingness to compromise. Now they are just being used as convenient pawns against Israel, as their lands ebb away. If they are to to be free and autonomous once again I don't see any other viable path.
It's nice to be able to tag people who support oppression and ethnic cleansing.
Ah yeah, people being actively ethnically cleansed should just sit back and accept their fate.
SURELY there is NOT ONE SINGLE thing Israelis did to provoke Oct. 7 attacks.
Oh yeah, it wasn’t just ONE SINGLE THING. It was THOUSANDS OF THINGS. Those things being war crimes committed against Palestinians. And not just recently, it has happened for decades.
Ah yeah, people being actively ethnically cleansed should just sit back and accept their fate.
SURELY there is NOT ONE SINGLE thing Israelis did to provoke Oct. 7 attacks.
It was THOUSANDS OF THINGS. ... for decades
Rage and violence won't change Gaza's realpolitik situation, it will make things worse.
All the perceived historical grievances in the world won't change Gaza's realpolitik situation.
They cannot win through violence. They will lose everything if they insist on it. I'm saying Palestinians should instead try pacification and diplomacy, it is the only viable path to peace where they have hope of achieving some objectives that are important to them. Ignoring the fundamental realities of their situation brought them to here.
The sad thing to me is that I don't think either government genuinely cares about the 195 deaths except as political leverage on Hamas's side and 195 fewer problems in Netanyahu's way.
I really struggle to see what leverage Hamas gains by fudging their numbers. It feels like a talking point to reduce the fatality count.
This number, half this number, quarter this number... the political reality is the same. Murmurs of condemnation while the US keeps the money pump going, Israel keeps commiting war crimes, and Palestine shrinks into nothing.
You think entire city blocks bombed and leveled to the ground, entire families just disappearing from existence is not enough to sympathize, so they need to fake the numbers?
Sorry to be replying so late, (original poster of the post that generated all these comments here) but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You're right that entire families disappearing probably will get more people to sympathise. That was my original point. Hamas wants innocent Palestinians dead just as much as Israel does. Whether they'll fudge numbers to move that needle up or not is not really important at that point: some people just feel like in the face of that political reality, is it really so unlikely that they'll do so?
Egypt really REALLY doesn't want refugees. They are the biggest hurdle. They are screening everyone ahead of time to ensure they have a place to go.
Reasonable answer: Because they need to ensure that everyone has a place to go and won't cause an international incident when the border (so Egypt) devices that they don't have a valid passport or are going to become a homeless person or whatever. Also make sure there aren't any known terrorists sneaking out.
Real answer: So that the IDF can murder more of them
Why would Egypt want the IDF to murder more civilians?
Partially because Egypt and Israel have increasingly become something approximating allies. So same logic as the US
But also? The majority of "arab" nations dislike Palestine on the best of days. So the usual bigotry against any immigrants amped up a few notches. Think Mexicans in the US or the Polish in the EU (and a big driving factor for brexit in the UK).
But there is also the active fear of Hamas led Palestinians becoming terror cells or trying to stage a coup. Egypt in particular has been fighting for years against, allegedly Hamas led, Islamic terrorists for years in the Sinai.
Similar to the (allegedly?) Iranian backed terror groups in Yemen.
So yeah. There will obviously be some light condemnation. But nobody is going to do anything about the IDF killing Palestinians. Because Israel becoming even more of a pariah an the inevitable long term destabilization from pocket groups for decades to come is the real goal of this. Having fewer Palestinian refugees is just a "bonus".
The IDF are the ones with the missiles, the rockets, the guns, the bombs, the tanks, the walls, the barbed wire and the funding taken from US tax payers. If the fascist terrorist state of Israel doesn't like the world's reaction, maybe it should change its behavior.
Please refrain from calling israeli terrorists "Jews" that's extremely anti-semitic and disrespectful to actual Jews.
To be honest, I don't really know who to trust at this point. They both have done/are doing horrible things and innocents are suffering. But I 1000% also believe all parties involved would/do lie to serve their ends.
Let's just assume that Israel isn't lying. They're telling us that taking out one Hamas official is worth nearly two hundred innocent lives in collateral damage. Best case scenario, they're still monsters.
Lets put it this way, if the Hamas leaders were hidden in a Tel-Aviv hospital filled with Israelis, would the IDF bomb it?
Fuck yeah they would. israel killed at least 122 of their own civilians by just mass firing their tanks into kibbutzes to kill a few Hamas soldiers. They knew there were hostages and still fired at the buildings.
Unless Hamas is literally standing behind Netanyahu that man will kill anyone. He does not care about israeli civilians the same way Putin throws Russians into the meat grinder.
This is a genocide orchestrated by Netanyahu to stay in power. The exact same strat Putin is using in Ukraine.
I mean... they kind of already did that in the October 7th attack. They would rather their people be dead than be used to release Palestinians imprisoned without trial.
Maybe it depends on the type of Israeli too. There is a lot of inter-Israeli racism and Arab-Israelis which were historically set near borders to act as buffers, aren't as valued as their European counterparts.
Human rights orgs say they have trust in Gaza health ministry numbers. It's safe to trust that, I would say. We have no reason or indication to doubt the numbers and they seem consistent with the amount of destruction we are seeing.
Hamas is actually quite trustworthy with their numbers if you look purely at history. The israelis are the ones that lie everything together.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
GAZA/JERUSALEM, Nov 2 (Reuters) - More foreign nationals prepared to leave the besieged Gaza Strip on Thursday as the enclave's Hamas-run government said at least 195 Palestinians died in Israel's attacks on the Jabalia refugee camp, strikes that U.N. human rights officials said could be war crimes.
Amid growing international calls for a humanitarian pause in hostilities, conditions in the seaside enclave are increasingly desperate under Israel's assault and tightened blockade.
Dr. Fathi Abu al-Hassan, a U.S. passport holder waiting to cross into Egypt on Wednesday, described hellish conditions inside Gaza without water, food or shelter.
Ashraf Al-Qudra, a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry, said in a televised news conference on Thursday that the main power generator at the Indonesian Hospital was no longer functioning due to lack of fuel.
He plans to meet Israeli officials including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Friday to voice solidarity but also to reassert the need to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, his spokesperson said.
In Jordan, Blinken will underscore the importance of protecting civilian lives and reiterate a U.S. commitment to ensure Palestinians are not forcibly displaced from Gaza, a growing concern of the Arab world, Miller said.
The original article contains 851 words, the summary contains 195 words. Saved 77%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
They unfortunately have very little ability to enforce much of anything.
They have also done plenty, from keeping peacekeepers stationed in southern Lebanon, running hospitals and schools in Gaza, keeping said hospitals and schools open despite verbal threats by the IDF and bombings, distributing food and water, to providing a platform for the US to prove its hypocrisy on a global stage as it consistently votes against a ceasefire.
UN officials have repeatedly raised alarms throughout this conflict about the attrocities they are witnessing in Gaza. The problem lies with America and Israel ignoring all of them.
"Reuters was unable to verify the casualty numbers"
Those figures are from Hamas, who has an incentive to inflate casualty numbers.
It seems like a bad idea to stay there given that Jabalia has been under bombardment for the last month, IDF forces have been very clear that civilians need to evacuate north Gaza, they will consider those who remain to be potential enemy combatants, ("terrorist sympathizers," as they phrased it,) and there is a network of Hamas' underground tunnels beneath the area that constitute a valid military target. Of course Hamas wants people to stay where they are despite all this so they can remain human shields and make Israel look bad in the media when the inevitable consequence of refusing to evacuate occurs.
Seems like Israel is sending a strong message that hiding among civilians isn't an effective shield for Hamas anymore. Much of the Palestinian strategy has been to provoke attacks then portray Israel as war criminals when they inevitably counterattack, and it doesn't seem like Israel cares about this concern trolling anymore.
Can you provide your estimate for the causalities? If Hamas is providing inflated numbers, what is the real figure?
Is it zero? Hard to imagine its zero civilians killed. But you say 195 is too high. So we are in the range of [0,195] ?
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When will the World stop Israel indulging in this Blood thirsty revenge ritual ?
when is the the fucking humanity going to stand up to this rotten world order ?
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