This meme really only makes sense in response to something. I've definitely heard many non-vegans complain that a vegan diet is restricting. Most of those people do only eat like 3 veggies ever.
That being said, it's a meme, not a philosophical treatise.
Maybe not this single one, but if there's a running discourse that shows veganism is perfectly common and normal, more people are willing to become vegan. This is part of the nudges we humans are prone to.
Vegans aren't doing this to feel special, stop projecting. We just want people to stop harming animals and the only way to do that is to keep talking about it. Of all the responses vegans get, this is the most annoying one to hear.
You do realise that meat-eaters eat animals that were killed for them to be eaten? Please explain to me how this is more empathetic than posting a meme that triggered some meat-eaters.
You do realise that meat-eaters eat animals that were killed for them to be eaten?
Yup. Animals that lived lives in the first place because they were going to be eaten. Why should anyone have an ethical problem with that? But honestly, I don't think it's just "were killed for them to be eaten" to you. I live in a deer population control zone. Hunters have a critical task of preventing deer overpopulation from devastating the area. Got any problems with the venison steak I had last week from deer that HAD to be killed?
Please explain to me how this is more empathetic than posting a meme that triggered some meat-eaters.
More empathetic? Because I'm not an anti-natalist. I know those animals would not have been born if not farmed. This is not a vacuum choice between "cows die" and "cows live". It never was, and it never will be. I know that most of them live better lives and die easier than their non-domesticated counterparts. Ever watch a cat play with a mouse, slowly torturing it to death? My local farm (plants) have animals that do exactly that every day with the goal of killing off pest animals so they won't destroy the harvest (a single pest animal like a squirrel can destroy 40 or 50 tomatoes in an hour).
Let's go another way. Statistically, odds are pretty good that my death will be 100x worse than how a farm animal dies. So no, me being ok that death exists in our world is NOT a lack of empathy. You don't get to make up my morals for me. The way I see it, giving farm animals a peaceful life is the height of empathy... so I look at you (your words) "triggering some meat-eaters" and note that statistically many of the people you go out of your way to "trigger" are going to end up dying long and painful battles with cancer. My view of empathy? Give them just a LITTLE bit more bloody peace while they're alive.
Here's my empathy. I fight for animal right laws. I strongly supported the free range chicken law that just passed in my state. I reject unethical and inhumane ways of treating and killing animals. But I'm not uneducated. I know how farming works. I know how the delicate relationship between agriculture and horticulture, while not perfect, leads to less death and less environmental impact than EITHER side of those alone.
Vegans are letting some crayola-colored dream be the enemy of good. And it's nothing more than flat-earther, tinfoil, antivax gibberish to me. And I don't care as long as they leave people alone.
That is the most insane sentence I've read. Vegans aren't slaughtering and eating you. What empathy do you have for animals you choose to exploit and kill for taste preference? Vegans want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn't mean we don't care about those people, but it does usually mean that we have to argue with them.
That is the most insane sentence I’ve read. Vegans aren’t slaughtering and eating you
Do you actually think you'll change anyone's mind by calling their well-conceived ethical frameworks "insane"? THIS is why you get the reputation of being smug. My life's knowledge, my grasp of philosophy, it's all worthless shit to you because I am morally convinced that it's acceptable to kill and eat animals. It doesn't matter why I'm convinced that (and I've learned the hard way it's not worth anyone's time to discuss the reasoning or the why's). I am beneith you.
Calling vegans "smug" is nicer than calling them dehumanizing and ignorant.
What empathy do you have for animals you choose to exploit and kill for taste preference?
As I said in another comment, proselytizing zealous vegans like to strawman non-vegans as all sitting there with a piece of bloody steak on a fork saying "I know some poor cute fluffy animal died a painful death for this but I LOVE the taste of murder". That's not us. If you can't see that, perhaps the first step in your recovery is to actually start to.
Vegans want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn’t mean we don’t care about those people, but it does usually mean that we have to argue with them.
As do I, and I have taken a lot of abuse from vegans over the years standing up to those bad things.
And more... That is Word. For. Word. what that guy on the subway says about my gay friends divorcing each other. Word. For. Bloody. Word.
I occasionally think about all the gametes I'm eating in vegetables. Other than rocky mountain oysters, I'm rarely eating sperm or ova when eating meat. There's roe occasionally, I suppose.
What three animals everyone else eating? We’ve got chickens, ducks, pigeons, quail, geese, cranes, turkeys, cows, deer, elk, moose, antelope, armadillo, beaver, bobcats, coyotes, foxes, lynx, bear, bison, caribou, goat, musk ox, pronghorn, sheep, muskrat, opossums, pigs, porcupine, rabbits, squirrels, pheasant, chukars, and tons of tasty insects to choose from.
I didn’t even go there because of so many tasty options to list!
Tell me with a straight face that you eat a fucking squirrel
THAT'S the one you take issue with? Lol
In not sure anyone is eating muskrat or opossum outside West Virginia mountain hermits, people born before 1890, and anyone who self identifies as a trapper.
Huh. Weird.
Well squirrel was the funniest one within that context imo.
Squirrel are fantastic.
They’re the least “gamey” out of most small game, less so than rabbit, and taste something like leaner dark meat chicken.
Awesome in a crockpot substituted for chicken in most recipes. Can fancy up squirrel with a Sous vide to make squirrel confit bánh mì tacos, or keep it old school and make squirrel pot pie.
I'm from Kentucky, friend. I've definitely had a squirrel or two in my day.
Dove, too.
Knew someone that tried to eat possum once, said it was the nastiest, greasiest thing he'd ever tried.
You have to catch the possum first, then corn feed it for about a month or two to get the nasty taste out of the meat before you eat it. So basically, turn it into a pet, then kill and eat it.
I used to live in rural Kansas, so yes
Squirrel is actually pretty good. Some of those others though...
Man the size of the of the ones in my neighborhood could replace our thanksgiving turkey if it wasn’t illegal to hunt them (I checked).
I mean tbf, the majority of Americans don't eat anything aside from chicken pork and beef, with the occasional turkey
True, but the majority of Americans also eat only a handful of plants, especially when counting brassica as one plant.
That's only true because turkeys aren't that good.
Turkey is amazing when done right. Though I guess that can be said for damn near anything.
Fucking heretic.
The amount of work required to make a decent turkey simply isn't worth it when so many better poultry options exist. The best prepared turkey isn't going to come close to a good roast duck.
yeah they're mid af
To get 80k they're obviously counting variations. How many breeds of cow have I eaten?
lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats
Skip a bit, brother
And the slothes, and the orangutans, and breakfast cereals
You gotta let people be people. Shaming someone for their dietary choices is not cool. Not everyone shares the same beliefs and that is fine.
I personally believe that people should not eat meat unless they have what it takes to kill it themselves so they understand what goes into it. Too many people eat meat all the time without understanding that something has to die for it to get there. I also disagree with mass agribusiness indoor livestock operations.
Some beliefs lead to immoral outcomes. I'm absolutely certain you can think of quite a few beliefs like that, right? Just picture a hill billy from Alabama, are all his beliefs fine?
In the end, morals is applied ethics, and politics is applied morals. We absolutely should legislate and not tolerate bad beliefs. The vague idea that "everyone has their own belief/opinion and we have to respect it" is a thought terminating cliche that makes the world a worse place. My dad wants me to respect his antivax beliefs, my grandfather wants me to respect his climate change denialism beliefs. Should I?
Well said, I'm glad to finally meet someone with your views that is able to express themselves.
I would say no to your question as those beliefs are contradicting science and they could cause harm to people. My beliefs do not contradict established science. I would also point out that not all rural Appalachian people are bigots, but I understand the point you were making with it. The difference in our views is that I don't see animals as people. I understand their intelligent, and I believe some may be sentient such as elephants and whales. I am against killing elephants and whales.
If you are curious to see it from my perspective, participate in a somewhat poor analogy. Imagine someone came out and said they believe that killing a tree is the same as committing murder, that trees are people. After all, we have proven that they communicate with other trees and with mycelium in very complex and even selfless ways, probably to an even higher degree than we have yet discovered. This person is adamant that the trees are being oppressed and that we need to stop farming trees for paper products. They say that you are a bad person for causing unnecessary suffering and destruction to trees. But imagine that you disagree with them, you do not see trees as people. You understand that trees are living and communicating and you would like to see less cut down, but you still use them for firewood to heat your house. You see it as no less humane to grow them and cut them down than it is to let them die from burning to death or being eaten alive by bugs or disease.
Not the best example, and there are plenty of holes you could point out of you feel so inclined, but hopefully the core of it can grant atleast a small glimpse into how I see the issue we are discussing.
More info on the trees talking thing. I find it fascinating that they have a whole complex economy going on underground, trading and even investing resources. DYK that as a last act when a tree is dying, it gives its resources to saplings that are of a different species than itself before it goes. There's some good podcast on it "radiolab, from tree to shining tree". Also an quick Google search article. https://www.nationalforests.org/...
When someones dietary choice causes huge amounts of needless suffering and death to the victim (the innocent animal that was exploited and killed) then that's not "fine". That's a serious injustice that should be pointed out (at the very least)
Wait, fish can eat other fish, but I can't? How's that fair?
That is your belief. I respect it. My mom is a vegetarian and I respect her beliefs, she would cook meat for us as she respected ours.
To me, the world has been eating itself since the beginning of life. Wild animals die horrible slow deaths from sickness to starvation over the course of days/weeks to being eaten alive or left to die, and that is the natural way of things. If you want to live you have to die. You don't have to agree with me, but you should accept that different people see things differently than you.
I don't expect a person at the bottom of the economic scale to feed their family with expensive alternatives that they don't understand, and you should't shame them for doing the best they can with what they have or what they know. If someone has the means to eat along with their beliefs, then more power to them. But shaming others is not the way.
Lead by example. Offer affordable alternatives, give positive publicity, not negative publicity, to let people see how your way can be good. Allow people to see your way. Don't force them or they'll just dig in deeper on their own beliefs.
Wait do you think farming doesn’t hurt animals? I’m all for not eating meat, but pretending you’re not harming millions of insects, birds, and various mammals every time you eat a salad, you’re confused about how food production works.
The moral thing people can do is stop making so many people. And hopefully we find ways to produce food in a better way one day. But farming on the scale that feeds billions of people is absolutely fucked.
Taking a step crazier, there are some animals that produce SO MANY calories that they represent less animal deaths per calorie than eating crops. Cows and Pigs are an example of that. I'm not going to get into hard numbers because everyone likes to hate on the other side's numbers and my experience living in a farming community looks more like the numbers that make animals look bad. If you want to math it out, the farm industry estimates about 40 mouse deaths per acre farmed, and vegan advocates defend a 15 total animal deaths per hectare figure. Grass-fed cows are more death-efficient than corn (the gold standard efficient crop, if less efficient than potatoes) at around 10 deaths-per-acre of farmland. I've never seen an acre of farmland without at least 10 animal carcasses on it in a full growth+harvest cycle.
How many people do you estimate could be fed with grass-fed cows? What about the usage of water? What is with the thousands of hectare of forest that have been rode for pastures? What about the water you need for this type of farming? What about the fact that, if everybody would switch to a meatless diet you would need much less farmland overall?
I know why you do not want to get into hard numbers. Because they would refute your weak arguments.
If you dont want to contribute to the comodification of sentient beings you'd also have to quit your job unless it somehow has literally zero impact on your physical and mental well being. Anyone got a job like that?
So, unless they can reduce the harm they cause to 0%, any and all attempts to reduce it are futile and pointless? This is the nirvana fallacy, and I hope you understand how horrible that would be if we lived by that rule. For example, I can't stop all racism, all human exploitation, all sexism because I live in a capitalistic hellscape built on the suffering of others. Therefore, I don't actually need to try, correct?
So your "argument" is, if we can't be 100 % cruelty free, we shouldn't reduce cruelty?
My arguement is if you want to reduce crulety, you have options to do so in your own life, which are far more productive than simply yelling at people online for not doing it the exact same way as you. You refusing to work somewhere you can support less exploitative practices because your comfortable in your job is no different then someone telling you they're not changing their diet because it works for them. You have the means and the capacity to change yourselves, yet you'd rather yell at people online to change themselves.
Imagine being a pro-capitalism vegan lmao
Nah.
Steak is delicious, and at the end of the day it's only a cow.
Plenty of foods are delicious.
So ethics aren't a concern for you. How about the adverse health effects, or environmental impacts of the meat industry? Any considerations there, or is all about how delicious steak is to you?
You know there's a lot of valid ethical frameworks that do not espouse veganism?
It's safer to say "YOUR ethics aren't a concern to him", or to me. There's a lot of philosophers who eat meat. And it's not hypocritical. They just think you're wrong. You aren't God (and even if you were, God doesn't get to decide ethics).
As for adverse health effects, I have known dozens of ex-vegans, one with an degree in nutrition, who left veganism despite their ethics, for health reasons. Generally speaking, it's easier to "accidentally" have an reasonably ok diet with a full balanced mix of foods than it is for a vegan to intentionally have one.
or environmental impacts of the meat industry?
This is actually an incredibly complicated accusation, and unless you enter the conversation with the conclusion in mind, there's not enough evidence/arguments out there to show that it's "the meat industry" that's the real environmental problem with our food industry. As someone who has shared a table with experts on a few occasions and then done some of my own armchair research, I'm convinced the two real problems are non-local food and factory farming. The former creates polluting logicistical overhead in transport and over-storage of food (fossil fuels for driving, non-recyclable plastics, etc) and the latter in willful destruction of environment to get more output cheaper, when we have plenty of room and plenty of margins to "do it right"
As for "to do it right", part of doing it right is acknowledging that we have a compost/manure shortfall against crops NOT because we're not producing enough manure but because we don't have localized meat farms balanced in each area around their crop farms, and/or that it's considered acceptable to use fertilizers despite the presence of manure that would better fertilize a crop. So the better answer? Local meat, and transition away from factory farms. And if you've got the land and the courage for it, keep some chickens for eggs and goats for meat/manure.
My 2c anyway.
or is all about how delicious steak is to you?
AND it is about how delicious a steak is to me. Have you ever walked a local farm with the people who do all the work? Helped them pick out the pigs for the meal? Known the love that is involved in the whole process, and the fact that the animals have it 100x better than they'd have had it in nature.
So yes, there is nothing like cutting into that pork chop having a REAL appreciation for the pig's sacrifice, a real appreciation for the work everyone put into it all.
So ethics aren’t a concern for you
Quite the opposite actually, as a farmer raising my animals ethically is a daily fact concern. I just don't buy into your supposition that raising them is inherently unethical.
How about the adverse health effects
If I live long enough that eating meat is the primary thing that got me killed, I see that as an absolute win. I like riding motorcycles, I also like beer and sugar and baked goodies. I fully expect something else to get me well before a lifetime of eating meat has the chance. And I'm okay with that, I'd rather live a few years less and get to keep partaking in the things I enjoy. Plenty of people live into their 80s without giving up meat, and living into my 80s sounds plenty long to me.
environmental impacts of the meat industry
I believe that until nuclear is being seriously considered as the solution for clean electricity, then it isn't worth worrying about which of my habits are supposedly causing the climate crisis.
Any considerations there, or is all about how delicious steak is to you?
I wouldn't say it's "all about" how delicious steak is. But I would say that in all of your examples "less steak" doesn't seem to be the most prudent place to start, or to consider at all.
I've raised quite a few farm animals. They don't have an urge to live. My goodness do they take every chance to get themselves killed...
Most people, including leftists, are meat eaters.
Did you assume he was a lefty because he used a word with more than 4 syllables?
I disagree with the comment on the point about it being a leftist naivety, but it is naïve nonetheless. Life feeds on life and all that. That they're sentient doesn't matter, some people argue plants are sentient too (not that I necessarily agree)
I don't care for debate so I'm just gonna share this tofu stir-fry recipe I like. I sub gochujang for the sambal oelek and skip the peanut garnish
now that's what i call praxis
This is the way
You had me until skipping peanuts.
Okay, but what if nut allergy :(
Its hard out here, being a vegan allergic to nuts.
I call it a balanced diet... Who the fuck is exclusivly eating meat?
Jordan Peterson? That is if the has a few moments inbetween crying on cam in his messy room.
No idea who that is, but I bet he has Gout.
Why were you downvoted? You’re comment is absolutely salient
Personally the only people I dislike for eating meat are the kind who have it in literally every meal in excessive amounts
I also think people should have to kill the animals themselves if they want to eat them rather than be disconnected by buying them in stores to be morally consistent but that's just me
I think if you're going to post things on the internet you should have to build the device you're using to do that yourself. And write all the software needed to do it.
Or maybe it's silly to put arbitrary moral requirements on other people. If you think it's wrong to eat meat, sure whatever. But trying to set some arbitrary goalpost that you know isn't feasible to make it so something you already think is morally wrong to be extra morally wrong because it's hypocritical or whatever is kinda weird.
I actually hate how distanced we are from meat in general, and agree that in general people should have the opportunity to kill their own meat.
That said, here's a real counterpoint. PTSD. I know people with severe PTSD from witnessing some unspeakable brutality like the violent death of a loved one or friend. Nobody should ever ask a PTSD patient to kill an animal themselves. Which is the problem with the whole "have to kill animals" thing entirely. Too many people have some traumatic event.
Honestly, I think that's where a lot of vegans come from. I have an extended family member who snapped after watching one of those vegan documentaries. She was weird before then for reasons none of us really knew, but she starved herself until she was hospitalized for malnutrition and her hair started falling out. When she got out, she wouldn't eat meat anymore and wouldn't talk about it. She isn't a "vegetarian" in any good meaning of the word, constantly struggling with nutritional issues and avoiding meat entirely because she can't bring herself to eat it. It has become a quiet ethical thing to her, but it's more than that.
So IMO, we gotta cure PTSD before making people kill. I DO think we should offer "kill and butcher your own meat" as an elective field trip in school. I got to visit my first farm in middle-school and it really helped give me a balanced view of the world of food. Even if it was just a chicken, if I could've killed my own, cleaned it, and cooked it, it would've really rounded out my head on the topic back then.
Is it vegan to sit on that high horse?
Oui Oui Baguette
No, just supposed to let them live
Says who?
Basic empathy for fellow sentient beings
A lot of people in the comments can't seem to make the distinction between what they have been fed since they were little and that they are used to, and what is good, or tastes good.
Most people who eat meat also eat some subset of vegetables and know they like/hate some other subset of vegetables.
The human body loves getting addicted to the unhealthy sugar carbs found in some plants, but our taste buds do tend to have a healthier long-term relationship with the umami balance you get more easily from meats and seafoods.
My comment was more about the knee-jerk reaction to new ideas and new ways of looking at things you may think you are already familiar with.
This can only be because you probably have no idea how to cook and always eat and buy the same dishes and ingredients all the time. Otherwise I have no idea how you would arrive at that conclusion.
...well, I did audit a culinary program when my wife took it. I have restauranteers in my family. I could probably survive in a small restaurant kitchen. But I guess I don't know how to cook :)
(fixed that part of my reply was to the wrong comment)
As for umami, it is the most stable flavor profile. You can get umami outside of meat, but like the protein you get out of meat, it requires a tremendous amount of effort and processing. And even then, my favorite way of making tofu involves just a little bit of bacon fat. And after I eat an incredible plate of falafal, I still want a nice cut of beef on the main plate.
I've probably eaten a well-above-average variety of meals from almost every culture (in some cases, blessed with the chance to eat in the country in question)... and yet, as enjoyable as the vegan ones are they are at best a shadow of themselves. The "not fake meat" ones are far better, but I rate food on quality. If "A+B" is simply a better meal than "A", then that speaks volumes. Most vegan or meatless meals are "A", and adding "B" elevates them. "B" usually happens to be an animal product.
Now IF I had some sort of moral or religious requirement to avoid meat, there are "A"s that would be good enough. I've had some Indian coworkers wow me with some of their meat-free food. But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing, so I have to admit that the best Samosa I've had was lamb and not veggie.
Sorry, I am not convinced. Someone who can't find umami flavour in plant based food easily isn't a good cook. You perhaps reach a satisfying result when you stay in your area of expertise, which is cooking meat based dishes. That might make your job a cook, but it certainly does not make you good at it.
But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing
I am very interested in how you argue it's "ethically good" to breed lifeforms just to have them suffer and then eat them.
Who's gonna fall for this ragebait?
apparently many people on this thread
There's more than three affordable animals lmao. Even if you count fish as one you still have crawfish, shrimp, fish, beef, chicken, pork, lamb, venison, turkey, etc. This also doesn't even account for the million ways to prepare the meats
Yeah, and if we run out we always have bugs.
There is even a difference from breed to breed: https://www.elwooddogmeat.com/
Real talk, where you buying venison? I gotta wait for a friend or family member who hunts to occasionally grace me with it.
Man, here's the thing. I can't digest fermenting ogliosaccharides, disaccharides, monosaccharides and polyols.
So no beans, mushrooms, onions garlic wheat rye or barley, apples, apricots, most berries, etc etc etc.
I also lead a "fairly" active lifestyle against my own wishes. So where does my protein come from? Meat. Chicken, eggs, and hard tofu.
If I cut meat from my diet, I'm eating three meals a day of hard tofu. What even is the point of life, then?
There's more than three animals that you can eat.
You don't even eat all 80000 of those plants.
Plants make excellent side dishes, unfortunately I can't spend a third of my day shoveling quinoa and lentils by the bucket load just to get enough protein, so meat it is.
I cut beef out of my diet almost entirely, both because it's unsustainable for the ecology (cattle require more resources per pound than any other animal) and because red meat isn't as good for you. Also it's expensive.
This is the fair and balanced take. Of course it would be better for the planet and our wallets to not eat meat, but our diet more or less requires some amount of meat for iron and protein; the responsible thing to do is to be selective about types and frequency. We don't need meat in every single meal or even every single day, but you've got a better chance of pitching meatless Monday to most Americans than full vegetarianism. And even a small reduction is better than no reduction.
Vegans, even life long vegans, exist. We do not need meat. And the reformist position overlooks the question whether it actually works. Convincing 10 people to CONSISTENTLY AND FOREVER decrease their meat intake by 10% is the same as convincing just 1 person to go vegan (aka 100% reduction). I don't have studies either way, but anecdotally people are extremely bad at keeping up dietary/lifestyle changes, but veganism is a lot simpler. "No animal products" is simpler than "have I reached my 90% yet?".
Again, would love some studies on this, but it just seems more like wishful thinking. Additionally, we could just encourage both.
Convincing 10 people to CONSISTENTLY AND FOREVER decrease their meat intake by 10% is the same as convincing just 1 person to go vegan (aka 100% reduction).
I don't think so. 10 people reducing it by 10% is nothing in a society where everyone claims they have reduced it and only eat happy to be killed animals from their uncles farm. On the other hand one vegan could show hundreds of people that there is no magic to not abusing animals and change some. It is not only about the personal impact but when veganism hits a critical mass and changes society.
Considering half the country threw a temper tantrum over being asked to wear a mask during a respiratory pandemic, I don't think you're being realistic in your view of everybody being able to go vegan. Many of these people threw a fit over AOC "wanting to take away your cheeseburgers" even though that wasn't what she was proposing; they just knew that it would rile up the rural base.
I think it's much more reasonable to convince people to make two easily implemented changes: no more meat at breakfast, and meatless Mondays. With these two easy changes, only 12 out of 21 weekly meals is eligible for meat, which is a ~43% reduction. Not everybody will do it obviously, but the same people willing to cut 10% will probably cut 43% when presented in this way. Especially if you bring up the financial cost, health risks, and storage inconvenience of buying and eating so much more meat than is necessary.
I also think it's a little silly to say that it's easier to go vegan. You need to study food labels and nutrition facts to see if there is some animal byproduct involved. When you go out to eat, it's not always clear whether options on the menu are vegan friendly, but restaurants are getting better about that nowadays. But I think you're also assuming that people have the means to always choose a product that may be significantly more expensive. I think you'll have better luck convincing people to occasionally think about whether their stirfry really needs steak or if mushrooms are actually enough to carry that earthy, satisfying bite they're looking for this time.
Vegans, even life long vegans, exist. We do not need meat
I know lifelong smokers. The human body is resilient. If your argument is that veganism is healthy, you need a lot more than "I'm vegan and I'm not dead".
I mentioned elsewhere about protein intakes. It's not a controversial take that protein is one of the most important things we need in a day, that protein is easiest to find in meat, and that our body isn't as good at digesting plant protein. For the rest, telling someone to go plant-based when you need a lot more than just a multivitamin to hit the Iron and B-12 content you need.
Whether or not veganism can be healthy (it might be), it is a known quantity that naive veganism is absolutely unhealthy. So my problem with "getting them vegan is easier than getting them to cut 10% meat" is that you're trying to create naive vegans. That means you're trying to create smokers.
Personally I like fish, I meal prep mostly with fish and they're far easier to farm and it's less damaging than most land animals.
Of course it would be better for the planet and our wallets to not eat meat, but our diet more or less requires some amount of meat for iron and protein
I think people really get a skewed view of this. It's better for our planets if we eat less meat, and if people who need high protein intake won't stop eating meat it's a bit better if you eat zero meat to competensate. But it's a "little vs a lot" thing . We still need meat to support the horticultural industry.
I mean, the cows and pigs in my area serve the important purpose of providing much of the fertilizer for all the vegetable farms in my area. They would still be there, getting fed, if nobody ate them or drank their milk. Their deaths would just be more of a waste. There is a point where too many cows/pigs are producing more fertilizer than crop farms need. But you want to hear something scary? WE AREN'T THERE YET; not even close. In the US at least, we only produce enough manure to support 20% of our horticulture, and the rest is supplemented by compost and synthetic fertilizer. And that synethetic fertilizer? Pretty terrible for the ecosystem and wild animals as well.
The real answer is that we haven't solved the problems. It does "feelgood" to know that we can genuinely help a little by eating a little less meat. And we should all be doing that. But all of us going vegan is a real problem for reasons unrelated to the (very real) nutritional issues.
The meme is questionable, no argument (aren't most?)
But point 3 is just straight up wrong.
Counterpoint. Nutritionists (many, not all) tend to agree that protein is under-represented in the average non-plant-based diet already, and the body processes plant protein at 50-67% effectiveness compared to a similar amount of animal protein. And people with particular common medical issues have nutritional need for higher protein amounts. My wife's nutritionist wants her at 100-120g protein per day, counting plant proteins at 50% (so 240g if plant). Her food intake is about 12-1500kcal.
I challenge you to find a healthy way to to hit 180-240g of protein at a reasonable calorie intake. The best I can find is about 20 to 1 (which would be 3600 calories of high-protein meals to hit 180g). Or she could eat one 600cal steak and then whatever else she plans on in the day.
More importantly, my doctor wants me around the same, if only 100g. But I don't want to eat 3000calories a day.
"You ever plow a field? To plant the quinoa or sorghum or whatever the hell it is you eat. You kill everything on the ground and under it.
You kill every snake, every frog, every mouse, mole, vole, worm, quail… you kill them all.
So, I guess the only real question is: how cute does an animal have to be before you care if it dies to feed you?”
-John Dutton
And half of them are actually just Brassica oleracea.
I'd sooner take those 80k dead plants, let them rot for a million years, and use them to fill up my pick up with gas.
I resent that. I eat more than 3 species of animals.
Capitalism is what gives people access to meat for regular people...
There are lots of types of meat you can have, like duck, chicken, seafood (don't really know how affordable seafood is), cow, turkey and whatever a hotdog is made from
There's more than three affordable animals lmao. Even if you count fish as one you still have crawfish, shrimp, fish, beef, chicken, pork, lamb, venison, turkey, etc. This also doesn't even account for the million ways to prepare the meats.
I'd say either you live somewhere where ALL those things are really cheap, or you don't know what it's like to be poor. I do well enough for myself and there are items in your list I wouldn't eat regularly even if I wanted, on price alone. Lamb and Venison are good examples, as are some fish despite the fact I live on the ocean. And Beef and Pork (I don't get this one) prices have skyrocketed of late around here.
I'm in New England. Beef prices have more than doubled in the last 5 years, and Pork went from cheaper than chicken to almost as expensive as beef, with most local restaurants having larger price hikes on their pork dishes than any other dish.
Scallops on the other hand are down 50% wholesale. If only I weren't allergic to them (and I have Scallopers in my family, so I can get them for free). I remember local seafood places when the scallops were the only non-lobster dish over $20. Now, I can get a scallop plate for $14 at a restaurant where the swordfish is $27.
I don't know where you live but lamb, venison, a lot of fish, and seafood in general is not affordable in many parts of the US at least. Beef, chicken and pork are the big three basically at least in my experience
Sorry, I'm trying. Honestly. I'm looking for vegan and vegetarian recipes and while it usually tastes "fine", it's mostly just "meh".
I don't get the hype for things like lentils or quinoa either. Both are "meh" at best.
So far, I'm unable to find meat-free recipes that truly satisfy me.
And no, I'm not a bad cook.
Tell me your reasonably priced vegan and vegetarian recipes that little children will eat, too. Serious request.
As a fellow omnivore trying to eat more vegan/vegetarian recipes, I think rainbow plant life on YouTube has the best recipes that I've tried. If you've read Salt Fat Acid Heat, most/all of her recipes are based on that technique/ideology. Her red lentil curry is really good and I make a double batch about once every other month to keep in the freezer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHRyfEbhFFU
I live with people that don't like coconut milk so I just use a mixture of heavy cream and milk. I also sub half of the red lentils for brown lentils for extra fiber.
Thank you very much for the hint, I checked out the red lentil curry video and it does look quite delicious. Chicken curry is actually my favorite food and I tried green, brown and red lentil curry before, but didn't quite like them, even though I'm half asian, lol. I'll try her recipe, though.
I personally love coconut milk.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=BHRyfEbhFFU
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Tofu is pretty versatile as a meat replacement or even just a general texture thing. I like to fry small tofu cubes and use them in place of the cheese in palak paneer, or instead of chicken in something like General Tso's. It takes a bit more work since you have to press the tofu and find a good way to cook it so it doesn't turn out soggy (and it's usually more expensive), but I'm a meat eater and it's satisfying to me.
Beyond/Impossible Meat is also pretty good imo. I actually tend to like it better than real beef, but that's definitely not a majority opinion. If you like the taste, you can crumble the patties for ground beef texture or break them into chunks for more of a meatball vibe. I've even done a sort of faux bulgogi with chunks and gochujang sauce that works surprisingly well.
One more thing I think can help is to not try to replicate meat for everything. There are ways to make vegetarian/vegan food that let it stand on its own and still be satisfying (beans and chickpeas can help a ton), without it feeling like it's trying too hard to be meat. Things like cauliflower stir fried or batter fried and coated in some sort of sauce can be good just as cauliflower in sauce.
Finally, mushrooms, if you like them. Soaking dried mushrooms will get you stock that can replace chicken or beef stock for most things, and frying even the cheap baby bella mushrooms that come pre washed and sliced can give you a meaty texture in something that needs it.
We eat tofu every now and then and like it a lot and I did already try out some meat "substitutes" and some of them are actually pretty good, but not cost-effective. I'm not saying I have to look at every cent I spend, but things have gotten harder in recent years, not gonna lie.
I don't need or want to replicate meat everywhere. I'm totally fine with non-meat dishes, but my complaint is that many of them don't taste as good as people (especially vegans) claim, even in restaurants. It's been quite disappointing multiple times to try that "really, really delicious curry", that in the end didn't really taste that great and it's been a recurring thing for me / us when trying to eat more plant-based foods. This is also true with cauliflower, for instance. I like it in "traditional" meals as side-dish, but no, to me, batter frying cauliflower doesn't make it good.
Mushrooms are a staple in our cooking, because I really like my umami flavor (I also use MSG a lot), but unfortunately, my daughter doesn't like any type of mushroom. I guess, it's the texture. Tried several different things and she always puts them away.
Anyway, thank you for your comment. Beyond meat has been on our "try out list" for quite some time.
Honestly I think the important thing is to just try alternatives. You don't have to end up liking them or completely replacing meat if it's not practical, just try to find ways to add more vegetables.
That's what I'm doing. I like to eat "traditional" salads and stuff like that, but I grew up with them being side dishes most of the time and I think, it's hard to break habits.
From a moral standpoint, I'd like to go vegetarian or even vegan at some point, but this requires me to find things that I'll actually like to eat on a regular basis. Often times, when I search for vegan recipes, something often throws me off. Be it the flavor, the texture, the strength of the flavor or lack thereof, etc. Maybe it's just that I'm not used to it or that animal fats are carrying so much flavor that I'm now kinda addicted to it? I know, it sounds really stupid, but when I go to the grocery store, I often gravitate towards animal products automatically.
My first goal will be to reduce meat intake to one, maybe two times a week.
Sticky tofu is hands down my favorite. Something like this: https://veganonboard.com/sticky-lemon-tofu/
Soy Curls is honestly my favorite 'meat replacement' (though, I'm not too hot on 'replacing meat'). They work for doing things like mongolian beef, or just lightly frying after marinading for 'chicken strips' to top salads or sandwiches. https://thevietvegan.com/vegan-mongolian-beef/
Soups are of course, pretty easy. I like Lentil Chilli, heavy on the seasonings and beans aside from lentils. Minestrone or lemon orzo are both also great. Thai curry or pho are both more work imo, but amazing (though, both broth bases can often have chicken or shrimp in them).
Burgers, and while impossible meat et. al. are fine I guess, they're a bit pricey. I honestly prefer a good chipotle black bean burger over them 9/10 times. They're pretty cheap to buy, but also not very hard to make, with most of the ingredients being cheap.
I personally like seitan, but I know quite a few other vegetarians don't, so it might be divisive. BUT, in terms of cheap protein, its damn near rock bottom in price. It is some work to make stuff out of it from scratch, but 'indian mock duck' is usually seitan, and can be bought from indian stores if you just want to try it. But seitan works to replace burgers, chicken tenders, steaks, sausage, etc. Tons of recipes out there.
Thank you very much for all your suggestions. In fact, I even plan to do my first seitan batch today. I'll follow this video and see how it goes.
I'll save all your guys suggestions and try them out, thanks again!
Seems to be pretty american. I'm from Germany and never had that.
Ok, this is going to be long!
I would advice, apart from tying out new recipes, try to look at how you cook rice, make a green salad and tomato based sauce again. Often there are a few basic things one can improve that elevate all other dishes as well. This doesn't have to be expensive, you save a lot of money by not buying the meat, after all.
(A few of these things you will probably know, but perhaps you learn something new.)
For rice try the following:
For a good tomato sauce try the following:
Some tips to make your salad better:
General tips for vegan and vegetarian recipes:
Ingredients which you perhaps never used before but are very useful:
Honestly. I’m looking for vegan and vegetarian recipes and while it usually tastes “fine”, it’s mostly just “meh”.
If it's about eating ethically, I highly suggest trying to eat locally instead. It's much better for the environment, and you can usually get a better nutritional balance.
I mean, if eating "meh" makes you feel good, go for it. Just please make sure to study all the supplements you need and keep researching because there are regularly discoveries that might change the supplement intake you require.
Transport is a teensy tiny part of the climate/environmental impact for food. In 99.9% of cases, a plant-based food will beat out any meat from next door.
That being said, local in the sense things that actually grow locally and are in season is still a good idea, though more from a community building perspective.
Transport is a teensy tiny part of the climate/environmental impact for food
Food Transport is estimated to be as high as 3 gigatons tons of CO2 emissions per year, a full 20% of all food-related CO2 emissions. From my point of view (not considering all animal-related CO2 emissions as a single line-item), that makes transport the single largest cause of CO2 related impact in the entirety of agriculture/horticulture.
For context, ALL manure CO2 emissions is only 2.6 gigatons (full disclosure. I lost and re-found this link, and see another source estimates manure closer to 7B. I'm sure you know my thoughts on that. Food Transport is still of dominant significance and fertilizer impact cannot be that effectively reduced). And in many cases, that manure is less harmful to the environment, yes EVEN CO2 impact, than the other fertilizer options that replace it when used in crop farms.
There's a strong argument for "less meat" being good for the environment, but I am convinced (in part from hands-on experience) that the only arguments for "no meat" being any good are entirely fabricated.
Hmm. I make the decision myself, nobody is forcing me. I have moral concerns, I care about the environment and I also have health concerns, too.
I'm not sure if I'll ever be vegetarian or vegan (I'd like to). For now, my goal is to reduce meat intake to one or maybe two times a week.
To be fair, one of those three animals basically perfected it's flavor to the point where everything else tastes just like it.
There are so many other birds out there that we've stopped eating. I am doing my part to bring back the eating of swans, geese, pheasants, ducks of all kinds, ostriches, emus, quail, pigeons and rare parrot. It seems unfair that chickens get all the love.
I dunno man that sounds like a bit much. I prefer my parrot well done.
All these tasty meats and people decide to eat what the food eats.
I mean I think it's pretty telling that there are lots of plant based versions of meat based food, but not the other way around. Nobody is trying to replicate the taste of salads in meat form
Probably because there's not really an ethical concern over eating (most) plants. You're making a false equivalence.
I would say that's not really true. Of course there's ethical concerns about eating most plants, regardless of whether a specific person holds those concerns or not. Eating local has been an important ethical push since before veganism ever took the spotlight. In my state, it's always been about "eat local, save the environment" and "eat local, support our farmers". Always.
I grew up knowing that a local clam chowder was simply the right option over getting corn shipped in from Idaho. We have some local corn farmers and I'll buy a bag every year at harvest time, but otherwise I don't eat corn.
In return, you better believe people DO have local-food recipes that try to replicate non-local foods. We do curries of local veg instead of traditional veg (despite the presence of Asian markets), etc etc.
It's just that it's easier to make a good and balanced meal without "Faking it" when that meal contains meat.
I mean, there's quite a bit of "faking it" for Keto as well. Trying to replicate grains and grain products in particular. Pork Rinds are advertised as an alternative to chips. And look up "Fathead Dough" recipe. Yes, some of the replacements are still plant, but the idea is to add a bunch of egg, cheese, and animal fat to bind together Almond Flour into a cohesive dough for breads and pizza crusts.
I’ve eaten chicken, turkey, sheep, cow, pig, duck, rabbit, snail, deer and horse. It’s a bit more than 3, and that’s just the general category (for example, counting boars and pigs as only one type) and only land animals. If we list each fish species, crabs, squids, calamari…
Chicken, pork, beef. Duck is common in Asian cuisines. Turkey is common in Western cuisines. Lamb is super common in many cuisines and my personal favorite meat. Bison burgers are popular in many places (dad loves them and so does my work cafeteria). There are dozens of varieties of seafood - but to be generous let's say it's just three groups: shells, scales, crustaceans. That's already 10 types of 'meat' that people eat semi-regularly, not including the different aspects/preparation of those selections. Hardly a lack of options!
Sure. But if someone isn't eating a varied diet, becoming vegan or vegetarian isn't going to fix that.
If we include seafood, I definitely do.
But to be fair, I don't think the average person is eating that varied a diet. I am not going to make the claim people on a plant-based diet can't get protein, they can, but they probably aren't getting 10+ different sources of it either.
Why does food have to be so varied on a weekly basis? Eating twenty different vegetables every week doesn't make my life any better than just eating the several few kinds I enjoy and find healthy. Same with meat, but I have great variety monthly when I feel like it, same as with fruits and vegetables. That's enough for me.
And besides, those 80,000 edible plants just don't fill you up like those 3 meats do, in taste or substance.
Lamb is prohibitive expensive. That's coming from a country that's has more sheep than humans. Not a chance I can afford to buy lamb even though it's Soo good. Chicken and beef mostly and maybe something when it's on deal.
Well no, I dont eat that much meat. I usually eat chicken, turkey and bit of pork and beef. Lamb is much rarer and snails are more of a social food that I don't cook at home, so I only eat them like 6-8 times a year.
I do eat different kinds of fish regularly, though, and I eat a healthy amount of veggies and non-animals but they also aren't that varied. Like I usually eat rice, potatoes, artichokes, eggplant, lettuce, spinach, broccoli, lentils, peppers and soy products (tofu, miso paste, etc) + aromatics like onion and garlic.
I hope not. Far better for the world (and animal welfare ironically) is to eat locally (which is impossible for vegans in most regions). It's simply better for me to eat local proteins (still more than 3 - chicken, pork, beef, shrimp, halibut, cod, and I'm allergic to others but other people eat them) with produce I buy from the farm down the street than for me to grab an Avacado ("from Mexicooooo")
...but to your point, most people have favorites or patterns/habits. Before I became allergic to clams, milk, and scallops, I would eat Clam Chowder or family-fished scallops virtually every day.
The problem with eating locally, is that it isn't a viable way to feed humanity. Like, yeah, the more local the better, you aren't wrong. We all should buy local foods as far as is possible. But the nature of humans living in cities, and many cities being near good trade areas rather than good agriculture areas, means that it just isn't viable.
If everyone was like you, and bought local near-exclusively, the price of food in most cities and many regions would skyrocket, and unless people stopped, many would starve.
Not to say its a binary; we do 'overship' foods, and certainly could (and should!) eat more local foods.
Add to that, that demand for meat (especially beef) means that a lot of animal agriculture requires the shipping of plant feed for that meat; see how the majority of soybean farming (77%) is for animal feed. And, similar to the point above, 'grass fed' beef just isn't possible to do while meeting demand. If we want grass fed animal meat only, a lot of people are going to have to give up meat, or dramatically cut down on meat consumption.
The problem with eating locally, is that it isn’t a viable way to feed humanity
Well, it is for me :). But while you're not wrong, it's a sad fact that many states export so much local food, meat, only to import crops from the other side of the country. Hell, someone tried to open a seafood restaurant in my home town that bought their products from 2000 miles away, products that were harvested from a dock less than 20 miles away from the restaurant itself.
I wager that my home region's exports are nearly enough to feed its populace despite having 2 of the biggest cities in the country. For the rest, of course we'll never have a zero-logistics food supply. But if you want to reduce impact, the ROI is much better dropping logistics by 10% with more local food (and localizing meat farms wherever possible, since that also increases the organic fertilizer utilization) than dropping meat consumption by 10%.
Add to that, that demand for meat (especially beef) means that a lot of animal agriculture requires the shipping of plant feed for that meat
Regulations can help with that. Oddly, that dynamic only works well with large farms. Small-scale feed operations tend to be local. Just like manure operations. Corn grows bloody everywhere, and you can grass-feed beef 90% of the way there. And the best way to grow corn? With cow manure. You're absolutely right that a cow farm 1000 miles away from a corn farm is a problem. The corn needs the cows. The cows need the corn. In at least 48 of the 50 states, the climate is amenable to both cows and crops with feedable waste. And in my area, ever farm does rotations. Guess what you use with all the cover crops you'd otherwise have to burn? YUP, feed em to the local cows.
see how the majority of soybean farming (77%) is for animal feed
70% of harvested soy material, call "soy meal", is inedible by humans and is used for cow crops. It is untrue that "the majority of soybean farming" is for animal feed. The true statement is "the majority of soybean output" is for animal feed, and nothing will ever change that. That's sorta the point of agriculture and horticulture. EVEN in factory farms (but moreso outside of that grouping) there is a critical synergizing effect between meat and animal farming, and it harms the environment in various ways to move away from that synergy.
And, similar to the point above, ‘grass fed’ beef just isn’t possible to do while meeting demand
"CAN" vs "IS". Current field rotations apparently would allow 1/3 the feed calories to be pasture grass, if we changed absolutely nothing about farming practices. But due to logistics, only 4% of cattle is grass-fed. Instead, we destroy all that pasture grass ungainfully and dispose of all that manure ungainfully. You want the one and only environmental problem in our food industry, that is it.
That said, I'd like to remind you of the discussion point above. We have corn and soy waste that are going to be destroyed otherwise. It is less ideal for us wanting tasty cows that it is mixed willy-nilly into the feed, but it does mean we would actually be able to fully waste-feed cattle on JUST the grass, soymeal, and other crop waste we have... if the megacorps in BOTH farming industries making the decision cared about the environment more than saving a buck. Which, perhaps, is why you have so many small self-sufficient farms that simply do not compete with the big guns.
I'd easily eat humans if it were legal and they processed in our bodies correctly! I don't get it, why you would want to let all that meat go to waste?
Prions are a great reason.
Worth noting that other animals too have prions such as the one that causes mad cow disease. Not to mention diseases like E. Coli, Salmonella, etc.
That's a jump, from "I'd eat a human" to necessitating the human have been purposefully killed to be consumed. The previous poster even pretty clearly said not wanting to waste meat, implying the human was already dead and would just be burnt/buried otherwise.
It's pretty ironic that ribs evolved to prevent a pig from being killed
ok vegan
Yes. Cook it with bacon or in bacon grease.
Does pleasure justify killing someone sentient?
Question: For any aspiring vegetarians/vegans, what are the best foods to ease the transition?
For instance, I'd ideally be looking for something with complete protein and few to no additional carbs, to be accompanied by the vegetable dishes I already eat. Beyond meat tastes great but still manages to find exemplary ways to be unhealthy with things like saturated fats, and probably doesn't do much to resolve any exploitation issues, though it at least appears to be a step in the right direction.
For people looking to move to vegetarianism, possibly as a bridge to veganism, could it reasonably be said that animal products from animals raised in cruelty free and free range conditions are ethical? Can any organizations assure that?
Lentils and mushrooms are high in protein and have a mealy texture with a give. They've been my meat-substitute best friends during becoming vegetarian :) Legumes in general are a good bet if you're a fan of them.
It's hard to find animal products you can be sure are cruelty free, unless you get them from a farm where you're familiar with the owners, and you don't consider animal products to be inherently unethical.
I work at a health food store chain and we have allegedly "extremely high standards" for eggs and meat BUT I always wondered how true that really is.
The industry standard nearly everywhere for the egg industry is to shred male baby chicks alive regardless of if they claim to be "free-range", "organic", "cage-free", etc. Here's a good video about that
Most vegan food is awful if you don't like lentils tbh.
Buckwheat (must buy eastern european kind) with diced avocado thrown in and a few pinches of salt is the shiznitz.
If I had to choose only one meal to eat for the rest of my life - this would be it.
edit: buckwheat prep: boil for 10-20 mins until most of the water boils away. Add some water if it boils away too soon. Leave some water/moisture to boil away while it's cooling and not to get buckwheat burned and stuck on the pot surface. Throw in some diced avocado chunks. Add salt to bring out the buckwheat flavor. Done.
There's bland salad, bland tomatoes, bland onions, potatoes, an assortment of bland root things, a couple bulby things that taste kinda terrible, and some fruits.
Obviously stinging nettle and itchweed
Obviously.
Almost correct. It's 6 dead animals in my case actually
The way forward is encouraging people to try better things. The warmth and joy of food is felt through the people that make it. Affordable and accesssible healthy food is becoming a custom, so migration from processed foods is easier.
Cool, vegans are invading this community. You're all insufferable.
You're the ones hurting innocent animals almost entirely for pleasure or convenience. Someone innocent getting hurt completely unnecessarily is good reason to cause a ruckus
Listen. If you personally are against eating meat and choose not to, great, I'm happy for you. But going and giving other people shit for their own dietary choices is as bad and obnoxious as telling people they shouldn't have abortions. Shut the fuck up and let people live, you're only making people hate you.
When an innocent victim is being harmed, silence is siding with the oppressor
Seems counterproductive, because you're never going to change anyone's mind by being an insufferable twat. Enjoy being hated.
You do realize stopping the meat industry altogether implies letting all livestock die, right? Very few people could afford keeping a cow or a pig as a pet and without the financial incentive there, farmers wouldn't waste their money feeding the livestock. They can no longer survive in the wild.
I'm not in favour of how it works right now either, I'm all for more animal rights and better conditions, but to think we could just stop and everything would be nice is just plain naive.
Ok, so lets stop breeding them first. Stop paying people to force them to get pregnant.
Ideally we'd be able to release them into the wild or have sanctuaries for them, but that's just not really possible. But if we stopped forcing more of them into existence then the remaining ones would all be killed pretty fast, which is far better than them and their children and their childrens children, and so on for the foreseeable future being killed.
More realistically, if animal liberation is achieved the population of farmed animals will gradually decline as fewer people support animal ag until there are only a few of them left, on sanctuaries or reserves or something, or they go extinct
But... I haz both.
Eat steak, eat steak eat a big ol' steer
Eat steak, eat steak do we have one dear?
Eat beef, eat beef it's a mighty good food
It's a grade A meal when I'm in the mood.
-Reverend Horton Heat
Frogs aren't vegan 😂
Same 3? Lol please.
I just eat what I like, which is a combination of plants and animals.
Quantity doesn’t necessarily mean quality either. Many plants are edible in the regard that they won’t kill you, but are mostly unpleasant to eat. Because if we are going to compare apples to apples we can surely eat over 80,000 different species from the animal kingdom.
Oh, apple! Same as eggplant and kiwi:
They taste like pain.
I always thought “an apple a day keeps the doctor away“ was something parents said because children would rather eat a painful fruit like a kiwi than visit a doctor. Turns out apples don’t taste like pain. I’m allergic to them. Like, all-variants-they-sell-in-local-supermarkets allergic.
I used to be allergic to apples as well. Couldn't have apples, peaches, cherries, pistachios, macadamia nuts, and a handful of other foods that I can't remember. Went nearly a decade with allergic reactions. Then just a few years ago, it all went away. I can't even begin to express how satisfying a perfectly ripe peach is, now that my mouth and throat doesn't start to swell.
Oh I am happy that nothing swells! It’s just very painful for me. Happy to hear that you can taste peaches!
If we're putting bacon, sausages, cutlets, and ribs in the same category because "it's all pig". Then I want to make sure that bulb onions, shallots, scallions, and leeks are also counted as one thing because they're all just onions.
Look me in the eye and tell me that bulb onions and shallots are different but bacon and cutlets aren't.
I can look you in the eye and tell you that bacon and cutlets are different, but onions and shallots aren’t.
Find me a plant that tastes like a nice hamburger and I'm sold.
Plant-based meat has been a thing for a hot minute so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make
edit: for chicken nugget enjoyers, I like the morningstar farms equivalent. Pop in the toaster oven/air fryer, coat in sweet & sour or orange sauce, put on a bed of rice, + sprinkle some sesame seeds on top. ooh that shit's so good
It's the default reponse to a shitpost like the above mainly. 80,000 plants don't make a good hamburger unless the cow does the work processing it into beef first.
All legumes.
And you don't need that much protein. 10% of your calory intake is enough, even if you're living a sporty lifestyle. People overthink their protein need all the time—I blame the sports nutrition industry and their aggressive marketing campaigns.
I love me some boiled lentils and chickpeas. Put a bit if olive oil on them and whatever spices you like (I like citric-y stuff like coriander, lime juice) and bam. Goes great with sundried tomatoes and maybe some chopped cucumber.
Personally I've given up trying to convince those with the "meat is better" mentality... been vegan for years, vegetarian before that. Just happy to see you fighting the good fight. Thank you!
the dead bodies of sentient beings
Some thoughts — the appeal to emotion is always going to be a turnoff here. Every time. I do get it, but if the people you were trying to convince cared about how fluffy and sad their food was, they would already be vegetarian.
Also, don't think I won't eat a human just because they're sentient. Or an ostrich. Have you ever met an ostrich? They're unapologetic dickheads. I'll eat an ostrich's babies on purpose. So mostly it qualifies as a guilt trip that goes nowhere, especially for those who hunt animals that need frequent culling like deer.
I think just trying to convince people to try recipes is more likely to hit, because who doesn't want something new and inexpensive that they don't have to feel fat about?
On that note, thank you for the reminder that I do really need to try tofu. I keep meaning to and forgetting, was not aware til last year how much protein it actually has (plants have a terrible rep), and I'm just gonna plan a dish at random and set a whole reminder for myself at this point. This is ridiculous. Would there be anything off the top of your head that's your favorite?
I love that - suggesting good vegan/vegetarian recipes instead. Much smarter! You cant argue with a good meal :)
A bit off topic, but I just want to say I really appreciate how your comment provided disagreement and criticism but in a friendly and polite tone that's often lacking these days. Please continue to be this sort of person even if you get a bunch of down votes from people who just disagree.
For tofu, I've never cooked it myself, but am a fan of the fried tofu from my local Japanese restaurant. Maybe a simple pan-fried recipe is a good place to start?
I always try really hard to do that, and even more so now that I've left reddit. Now and then, I still find myself backspacing ingrained reddit snark or editing and re-editing things to make them more neutral and concise.
Sadly, the rambling is clinical, I still tend to get in my own way if I'm talking about something personal, and I've found that nothing. Absolutely nothing. Will piss people off faster than telling them to be nice to or even hear each other. I just want things to be better, and in all but the most dire cases, anger doesn't do that.
For the recipe, I already have one saved to my phone :3
Not everything that elicits emotion is an appeal to emotion. If I argue with a conservative and say that "anti-trans legislation leads to more trans suicides of the children you pretend to protect", is that an appeal to emotion just because the conversative might get emotional?
An appeal to emotion is backed solely by the other persons emotion, nothing else. The very accurate description of what meat is backed by logic and the morality of most people, if we're being honest.
Now, regarding effectiveness, I don't know what's better. All I know is that the people that aren't activist always seem to know exactly how to do activism correctly. This applies to anti-racism, or feminism too. "I agree with your message, but your actions are too extreme/disruptive/emotional/etc." Personally, I believe that the correct activism is ALL the activism: The loud, and the practical, and the friendly.
Veganism is not a diet, so just giving recipes without a philosophical backing will likely not create a lifelong lifestyle shift.
Regarding tofu I'd say think of it like plain chicken. It has zero real taste of it's own, so just put it into stuff that's tasty. Since it doesn't have to be cooked for a specific time like chicken or lentils, I often just crumple a bit into whatever I'm making if it's lacking "mass". I would honestly recommend an actual, real life, paper cookbook over following youtube videos. They're often more detailed, and better for beginners esp.
Not everything that elicits emotion is an appeal to emotion. If I argue with a conservative and say that “anti-trans legislation leads to more trans suicides of the children you pretend to protect”, is that an appeal to emotion just because the conversative might get emotional?
Yes.
Appeals to emotion are intended to cause the recipient of the information to experience feelings such as fear, pity, or joy, with the end goal of convincing the person that the statements being presented by the fallacious argument are true or false, respectively.
the statement "Look at the suffering children. We must do more for refugees." is fallacious, because the suffering of the children and our emotional perception of the badness of suffering is not relevant to the conclusion.
If you cut out the part where they're a terrible hypocrite if they don't agree, that would be a logical argument instead of an emotional one. For the topic,
"You should switch because it costs less, is more environmentally sustainable, and carries much the same nutrition while being more advantageous to your health" is a logical argument. All of these are verifiable and the reader may decide on their own how persuasive the facts are.
"vegetarianism is cheap and healthy, you should switch because killing is wrong and you're making poor, defenseless animals suffer and be repeatedly raped, and you're a terrible person behaving immorally," is a emotional argument, and laughably manipulative.
The problem is morals are subjective. You might think stomping bugs is mean. I might stomp all day. We can argue about bugs all day long and never get anywhere, because you're trying to force me to feel something I don't actually believe. I'm more likely to listen to data I can't physically argue with.
Now, regarding effectiveness, I don’t know what’s better. All I know is that the people that aren’t activist always seem to know exactly how to do activism correctly. . . . Veganism is not a diet, so just giving recipes without a philosophical backing will likely not create a lifelong lifestyle shift.
The philosophy part seems to fall short a lot those reasons. Most meat-eaters are well aware, they just value something else more. Be that finances/accessibility (hunters), self-image (Red-blooded American Tradition, Grrr, Manly Caveman), or simplicity/dependability and the transient comfort of familiarity (me @ the horrors of life).
If you're like me and giving more energy to struggling, your instinct might be to go, "Ooh, animals are suffering? Food is sad? Mfer I'm sad too, I can't even afford laundry."
With their values elsewhere, the likelihood any will go Full Plant forever is small at best. But if I continue eating eggs/steak and replace burgers and chicken with their just-as-good meatless counterparts, I still consider it a partial win vs a total loss. More open to the idea. Less money to the industry.
It has to be far and beyond exhausting to have the people you're convincing correct your speech instead of ever focusing on the content. I grant you that.
I'm not pulling it out of my ass because I want The Activists to leave me alone, it's my stance because years of perceived bitching never swayed me any more than it seems to persuade anyone else in this thread. Being nagged and told you're a bad person isn't going to make most people want to hear about all the ways they're bad.
What got me to consider it was a former friend who never pushed the issue except to offer me some of her plate. It was fucking delicious. A bit expensive, still, since that's just where fake meat is right now, but I'd buy it again.
Asking a vegetarian sub about an unidentified dish in a wedding spread didn't net me answers, sadly, but for someone whose main concern is a tendency towards anemia, a user showing me tofu has slightly more (non-heme) iron than meat put it on my radar. Way more fun than the 40% chance of being dogpiled and called a murderer.
I will admit that "on my radar" turned out to be more "info my handicapped brain filed away to be accessed only if I ever saw it in a section I associate with ice cream," so that will be rectified.
Regarding tofu I’d say think of it like plain chicken. It has zero real taste of it’s own, so just put it into stuff that’s tasty. Since it doesn’t have to be cooked for a specific time like chicken or lentils, I often just crumple a bit into whatever I’m making if it’s lacking “mass”.
I've heard that, not surprised. A bit sad, but easy to work around. If there's no set cook time, is there...a disadvantage to cooking it? As in, it's easily burned or something...? Maybe I'm asking too many things. The only cookbook I've ever owned was an heirloom from WWII, so I have some stuff to look up 😅
You'd be surprised how many people don't make the connection that nonhumans aren't just flesh robots. Also a basic syllogism:
Ok, but. I would still eat a dead human pretty readily if they didn't taste like veal, so. Not to mention, my overly-literal ass can confirm from everything I know of every area of medicine and mechanics, we definitely are meat robots, yes. The distance as a consumer helps, but if I had to kill something myself, all it would take is getting hungry enough. An empty stomach knows no morality.
I think you're underestimating how little emphasis most really place on this over making their own survival as simple as possible. Myself and others are not unaware that dying is painful or we'd likely be kept in a room somewhere, and acting otherwise is infantilzing.
Deriving enjoyment from being talked down to is so far from the norm it's a distinct fetish, so it rarely accomplishes more than making the target dig in their heels. It's by far the main reason that every time a vegetarian/vegan is at all vocal, they tend to get laughed out of the room.
Unless they're six, people already know animals suffer and they eat them anyway. It's just what they've always done, they already know it's available and delicious, and it's easier not to change anything more than they absolutely have to.
So make the change simple. The empathy route isn't playing to strengths, here, the way just getting someone to try and hopefully integrate vegetarian meals would.
Horrendous? Yes. Also true. Mostly what people do is suck. If you want someone to do something for you, make it worth their while.
Google search: https://youaligned.com/...
Did you want another corona? Because this is how we get more corona.
Nice one, Doug
The first two statements are bold claims to make I'd like to see some credible sources on this.
The last one which I'm also not sure is true one could put in context. E.g. as a comparison how much acres of land/ water/ energy does it use compared to vegetables.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/...
Basically it's harder to achieve all essential amino acids in a plant based diet. Animal protein is also linked to lower stroke risk and diabetes, but can lead to higher heart disease. Overall it's not absurd to say animal protein is better than plant protein.
On the last comment: https://rainbowrunfarm.com/...
This source claims one cow can feed one person for 8 years, but that feels a bit absurd so I did my own math. 80% lean beef contains 1152 calories per pound. Meaning at 2000 calories a day one person eats 1.74 pounds per day.
This source claims about 880ibs of useful meat is available on the average cow, meaning one person can survive for 505 days on one cow, or 1.38 years.
The third source claims one acre per cow raised is the land needed for grazing. Checking other sources this seems to be the general consensus on cattle to acre ratio.
https://permaculturism.com/...
This source claims you need 1.69 acres of land to raise all the required plants in order to feed yourself for one year. Therefore raising the cow and eating it would be a more viable space.
Such as?
Omega 3 fatty acids, vitamin B12, vitamin D3, vitamin A, choline, etc...
And where do the animals get them from?
Many animals are capable of synthesizing these compounds, but humans are not. Our bodies stopped producing them since we could get them through our omnivorous diet.
Vegans can of course take supplements for these, so you can get enough of them, but you do have to think about it and take the right supplements to prevent deficiencies.
All those plant based alternatives are significantly lacking in most of those nutrients, and aren't readily absorbed from plant based sources. You have to eat a shitton of them to reach the levels easily attained by eating a few animal products. Most vegans are absolutely deficient in them.
And for more you have Iron and Zinc which our bodies don't readily absorb from plant based sources.
Calcium and cholesterol are signifantly lacking in vegan diets. Carnatine and carnosine. The other vitamin Bs.
This is a blanket truism for any diet.
Sure, but it's extra true for vegan diets due to our bodies inability to fully digest most plants, and readily absorb the necessary nutrients from them.
🤔 Maybe you have a gluten sensitivity or allergies
Do you know what those self-mummifying japanese monks ate to mummify themselves? Plants. Not even very many plants.
I don't want to be a mummy.
and after eating all 80.000 you'll still be hungry and feeling a bit weak...
face it, humans are omnivore we will always need both to thrive, balance is key
Meat is not essential for human diet. However, many of the nutrients found in meat are essential for our health. Protein, iron, and B vitamins are just some of the nutrients found in meats. Meat provides our bodies with proteins, vitamins, and minerals that are necessary for proper muscle and organ function.
Sure there is a pill for everything but its the same as getting a IV with fluids instead of drinking. You will still be thirsty... again finding balance is the key, not every meal requires meat.
Some of the vitamins you think are naturally from all meat sources are supplemented vitamins (just like taking a pill) into the feed of those animals
However, many of the nutrients found in meat are essential for our health. Protein, iron, and B vitamins are just some of the nutrients found in meats.
These nutrients are found in non meat sources as well. Meat doesn't carry anything unique besides B12 because we wash the fuck out of our vegetables. Plant based diets make it pretty difficult to miss nutrients unless you're just sitting around eating oreos all day.
…and you could do the same thing and eat exclusively from the animal kingdom too.
If you don’t want to eat anything from the animal kingdom for your own reasons, cool. But when you start saying anything about what other people eat, imo you are no different than someone saying their religion/beliefs are best. Just don’t.
Humans are omnivores and always have been, society and technology today has only recently allowed humans to strictly become vegetarians on any kind of scale. Specific eating habits for moral reasons is a thing people who aren’t poor in first world countries have the privilege of doing. People in 3rd world countries/poor people are simply going to eat whatever is available to them.
Again, no one is wrong here, until one starts advocating that their way is best or better.
true, love me both some cashew and beans too bad both are also horrible strains on the environment like 6k liter for 0,5kg cashews buth that is a whole other debate
I’d go farther in saying that staying the fuck away from "industrialy" grown meat, and overly processed food is the way to go (for health). Reducing a maximum the meat consumption, and subside it for higher quality one is what’s necessary for the environment.
Going vegetarian (mostly) is even more efficient in both cases as long as the diet is well crafted for balancing all the body needs.
cookies aint animals are they 🤣
@lemmy.ml
go to feed...
@lemmy.ml
go to feed...
This meme changed zero minds but made a few vegans feel pretty special.
save