meta lemmy cross-instances dissing

2 years ago by Nobilmantis to c/memes

Ion 81 points 2 years ago

"I must preserve my echo chamber!"

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SteveFromMySpace 79 points 2 years ago
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Cowbee 9 points 2 years ago

It depends. Defederation for good reasons is good, defederation for bad or false reasons is generally bad.

As an example, having a strict and democratic defederation/federation policy has contributed to Hexbear having the most active trans community on Lemmy, and it's a good thing that there's an actively protected trans space free from bigotry.

At the same time, defederating from instances for political reasons under the guise of other reasons is generally a bad thing.

It's largely context dependent.

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SteveFromMySpace 29 points 2 years ago
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undergroundoverground 6 points 2 years ago

After that, things get more complicated.

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Theharpyeagle 3 points 2 years ago

I mean, "bad" in this case is completely subjective. There are large trans communities on other instances (blahaj being the most obvious one) and they have their reasons for defederating from Hexbear.

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Cowbee 2 points 2 years ago

Hexbear defederated from blahaj, not the other way around. Either way, Hexbear remains the most active trans community on Lemmy.

I understand why anticommunist instances like Lemmy.world defederate from Hexbear, I just don't think it will help Lemmy.world in the long run, as Lemmy itself by nature is going to attract Communists due to its structure.

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goferking0 2 points 2 years ago

Ada is okay with others chasing off people from the instance. Hard to say it's a pro trans one after seeing multiple witch hunts done against a particular comm by one user and Ada just supporting the witch hunt

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Ion 7 points 2 years ago

Well that's definitely your own experience on federated platforms, but I wasn't speaking to that circumstance. I made a mastodon account and criticized our government's massive funding of Israel in spite of our lack of critical infrastructure and healthcare and got spammed with "Israel has a right to defend itself, and you 're a trumper if you think otherwise" type comments by people that post one response and then immediately block you. Which is laughable and couldn't be further from the truth. That is the perpetual echo chamber I was referring to from my personal experience.

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SteveFromMySpace 0 points 2 years ago
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Kusimulkku 2 points 2 years ago

Are positive, liberal LGBT communities echo chambers

Could be, especially if there aren't a multitude of sentiments there. That doesn't mean all sentiments must be present of course.

Are they not allowed a collective space to hang out without having to explain themselves all the time

I don't think anyone said they aren't allowed to have such a space.

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JustAnotherKay 0 points 2 years ago

You're in an echo chamber if you curate your home feed to only show one opinion and then never change it; it doesn't matter what the opinion is

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SteveFromMySpace 4 points 2 years ago
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Ion 3 points 2 years ago

How?

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JustAnotherKay 2 points 2 years ago

How did you take this as an attack? An echo chamber is the exaggerated idea of hearing only a single opinion, as curated to your own beliefs. It doesn't matter what the belief is.

Obviously no one is 100% in an echo chamber, but it's also obvious that everyone is guilty of confirmation bias; and tend to prefer seeing their own opinions online. I never said anything about my own feed or accused you of being in an echo chamber. I just explained what one was because you implied that it's impossible to be in a liberal echo chamber

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Track_Shovel 6 points 2 years ago

HOW DARE YOU HAVE A MODERATELY DISSENTING VOICE, YOU LITERAL NAZI?!?!

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SteveFromMySpace 23 points 2 years ago
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Track_Shovel 13 points 2 years ago

Oh literal Nazis can get fucked. My point is that you can disagree on topics and that health discourse is good

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SteveFromMySpace 0 points 2 years ago
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Lucidlethargy 4 points 2 years ago

It's ironically more about certain instances creating echo chambers through constant censorship.

Imagine an instance full of Nazi's that only ever let's Nazi posts stick. Is this if any value, or would defederating improve the quality of your experience?

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Cowbee 4 points 2 years ago

You're talking about Exploding Heads, which has been defederated by pretty much everybody.

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vorlaut_boy 3 points 2 years ago

I'd like to come to your house and take a shit in your bed.

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Kusimulkku 2 points 2 years ago

There's moderation and there's making it into an echo chamber. Seems like a difference many don't understand.

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vorlaut_boy -3 points 2 years ago

seems like nitpicking to me.

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Kusimulkku 3 points 2 years ago

I don't know if you're joking or proving my point

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Ion 1 point 2 years ago

Hope you get the help you need 🙏

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vorlaut_boy 0 points 2 years ago

Just bring TP, not Hope.

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SteveFromMySpace 60 points 2 years ago
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Cowbee 49 points 2 years ago

Lemmy.ml is federated with the vast majority of major instances, moreso than others like Lemmy.world. What are you trying to say?

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SteveFromMySpace 14 points 2 years ago
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Cowbee 30 points 2 years ago

Still doesn't make sense, Lemmy.ml doesn't constantly threaten to defederate from other instances over political reasons

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SteveFromMySpace 20 points 2 years ago
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dessalines 26 points 2 years ago

Might be good to add an /s, considering how common that is on the anti-communist servers.

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Soulg -2 points 2 years ago

Except it wasn't sarcastic

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AVincentInSpace -7 points 2 years ago

yunno, on second thought, maybe i don't want to be using a social platform where communism is expressly the default stance

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Linkerbaan 20 points 2 years ago

If you love Capitalism and Liberalism I know just the platform for you: Reddit.com

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Kusimulkku 0 points 2 years ago

Man that seems to be way more active than this one

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Cowbee 7 points 2 years ago

The structure of Lemmy itself is built on Communist principles, you're going to have Communists even if you try to block Communist instances.

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match 3 points 2 years ago

we could defederate i guess

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GrammarPolice 2 points 2 years ago

I've never heard of pawb.social

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davel 3 points 2 years ago

It isn’t, but don’t let that stop you from leaving.

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DmMacniel 4 points 2 years ago

Yeah but not by a user from ml

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SteveFromMySpace 6 points 2 years ago
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Corgana 50 points 2 years ago

Why would someone who doesn't like blocking and de-federation like "federated platforms"?

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captainlezbian 29 points 2 years ago

Yeah part of the point of this is that it’s not a free speech zone unless you want a free speech instance. I prefer a more curated against bigots experience. Others don’t. Still others prefer other forms of curation. Federation means we can all talk to each other as long as we stay within boundaries of what others will stay federated with.

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Corgana 5 points 2 years ago

Exactly, it also means we can have different regions for different types of conversations, much like in the real world.

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problematicPanther 46 points 2 years ago

free speech also applies to lemmy servers. If the server doesn't agree with most of what's on your server, they can and should have the option to not associate with your server at all. This honestly sounds like a shit take elon would have made.

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SteveFromMySpace 13 points 2 years ago
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hamid 26 points 2 years ago

I defederated lemmy.world because I don't feel like hosting and re transmitting US propaganda.

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flashgnash 13 points 2 years ago

It is kinda surprising how much obvious propaganda makes it onto Lemmy, for example those memes that aren't really memes as much as "haha this opinion wrong"

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Cowbee 17 points 2 years ago

Lemmy itself is largely made up of Communists, Anarchists, and liberals fleeing Reddit.

As a consequence, there's a lot of Communist agit-prop, and a lot of reflective panic on the hands of liberals.

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goferking0 5 points 2 years ago

The cycle of a specific comm on world

we only allow memes here

points out posts that aren't memes

stop asking us to follow our rules

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Kusimulkku 2 points 2 years ago

This is a very political place, even compared to Reddit where there's a shitload of politics

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flashgnash 1 point 2 years ago

I think it's just as much a hivemind if not moreso than Reddit. Also, probably way easier to make bots for too

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merthyr1831 21 points 2 years ago

lemmy world admins cracking down on posts they don't like with no accountability and arbitrarily changing their ToS after the fact to cover for it, but somehow the entirety of the factionalist weirdos who cling to the idea of a corpo-friendly Reddit clone are laying the blame on... other instances?

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goferking0 4 points 2 years ago

Users are celebrating them for a learning moment so yeah then blaming others is on brand

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LarmyOfLone 16 points 2 years ago

I tried like 4 different lemmy instances before settling on lemm.ee because it hasn't defederated from the socialists or "tankies". So I can participate.

This defederation fracturing lemmy really speaks to both self-censorship of allowable ideologies and also bad quality of admins and mods several servers.

If lemmy can't somehow federate communities separately from instances I don't see lemmy thriving.

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Cowbee 9 points 2 years ago

Lemmy is thriving enough. Self-sufficient instances like Hexbear are fine without large amounts of federation. I do see Lemmy.world running into issues in the future due to their strong Zionist slant and anti-Leftist stance, but the other major instances seem to be fine.

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goferking0 5 points 2 years ago

And their desire to spin off their own version of lemmy in Java

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LarmyOfLone 3 points 2 years ago

Wait, what? Where can I read more about that?

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Cowbee 9 points 2 years ago

It's called "Sublinks," I believe. They don't trust the spooky scary commies and want to make their own, worse Lemmy alternative, which is silly.

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goferking0 3 points 2 years ago path: 0 12133865 12134300 12136803 12137269 12138315, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
Faresh 4 points 2 years ago

I do see Lemmy.world running into issues in the future

I think lemmy.world is already pretty bad. To get away from their posts and comments I've considered joining hexbear, since you people honestly have the best content and most wholesome community and aren't federated with .world, but I also don't want to be completely isolated from the rest of the fediverse. However, I just noticed there are only 5 instances in hexbear's blocked instance list and plenty in the linked list. Maybe I didn't notice how all other instances started federating with hexbear again?

I don't know what the "allowed" instance list means though.

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Cowbee 8 points 2 years ago

To get away from their posts and comments I've considered joining hexbear, since you people honestly have the best content and most wholesome community and aren't federated with .world

Make an account, Hexbear is perfect for you. I made a Hexbear account a few months ago and enjoy my time there much more than I do here, there's far fewer struggle sessions and the quality of discussion is much higher.

I also don't want to be completely isolated from the rest of the fediverse.

The cool thing about Hexbear is that it has by far the most active userbase I have seen, it's fully self-sufficient and you won't likely miss the rest.

However, I just noticed there are only 5 instances in hexbear's blocked instance list and plenty in the linked list. Maybe I didn't notice how all other instances started federating with hexbear again?

Some instances have Hexbear blocked on their side that Hexbear doesn't have blocked, so this can be misleading, however it's mostly the right-wing instances like shitjustworks, lemmy.world, and lemmy.ca that are of note, and their content fine to drop.

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TheFrirish 1 point 2 years ago
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Cowbee 4 points 2 years ago

Have you visited Hexbear? It's a very wholesome instance overall and posters are very supportive, assuming you're a Leftist. What leads you to believe otherwise?

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Faresh 3 points 2 years ago path: 0 12133865 12134300 12137522 12142153 12147040, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 4
LarmyOfLone 1 point 2 years ago

Yeah it is thriving, what I meant is that to have a chance to replace reddit, lemmy needs to find some technical solutions (moving / migrating / merging of communities) and somehow stop fracturing into islands.

But maybe that age of the internet has passed and people are no longer willing because of trolls, bad faith actors, sock puppets, bots... and the increasing polarization of ideology and propaganda.

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Cowbee 8 points 2 years ago

My point is that it doesn't need to surpass Reddit, as long as its users enjoy using it then that is enough. Using Hexbear as an example, Hexbear doesn't need any more growth, and is active enough to pretty much fulfill anything it needs on its own local instance.

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hamid 4 points 2 years ago

I don't think surpassing or having anything to do with reddit is valuable. I use lemmy because I think reddit sucks but now I can see how it can be better. For example, I want to disable all voting on my instance, I don't believe it helps anything and the only reason lemmy has it is because of reddit, there is no algorithm or anything. That to me seems like the worst reason to have something.

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LarmyOfLone 1 point 2 years ago

Ok I'm just thinking out loud here...

Part of what makes (made) reddit great is that there are so many niche communities. That you scroll through reddit and find something interesting and new and can just jump in and discuss it.
THAT I think we can all agree would be great to grow in lemmy.

There is no question that lemmy IS the same social media "mode" as reddit, a link aggregator where users can democratically sort news and articles and topics and discuss things. Lemmy is a clone of reddit, this can't be disputed. The question is how to make it better than reddit and avoid the pitfalls. Right now moderation and admins are a bit problematic like e.g. the recent vegan clusterfuck.

And yeah for certain subs like vegan you don't need downvotes since there wouldn't be too many "controversial" topics. I suspect part of what is lacking on reddit is that there isn't enough "tagging" on reddit. Like having ways for users to mark a post "funny/silly" or "unconstructive" or "misinformation" or NSFW, NSFL or hatespeech. Besides upvoting. Maybe I'm wrong with this.

But I think over time reddit degraded because the system didn't support protection against malicious actors. For example tons of meta jokes. Every serious topic has a joke comment on top. You can't filter them out. That might be a great use of AI like chatGPT for this where the AI learns from the tags and then allows to filter out joke comments. Not censor but allows you to filter out things that can be fun and crass but are not good for long term community. Basically to help moderators.

Of course the current problem is that users themselves have become more and more "post-truth", not just the fascists but the "leftists", liberals and centrists too and shout down any dissident opinion because they assume it's bad faith. Nobody wants to engage any more because they've been burned. Maybe that can be reversed if lemmy has the right tools and the community is moderated well enough to "heal". But again, the admins and moderators are currently the problem on lemmy. Lots of power-tripping and radicalism (and I don't just mean the socialists lol).

And voting with your feet is also a problem because it leads to fracturing like mentioned in OP and that does have a negative effect. Like the europe@feddit.de community lost 75% of it's users with the move to feddit.org. I assume similar things will happen to the vegan community now that you moved and people searching for vegan will be confused. Better technical tools are required.

So I think it's not just about surpassing reddit in numbers, even though at least some growth is very curcial for niches to thrive, but to grow the usability of the software.

Anyway, just rambling / thinking out loud 🙂

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Evil_Shrubbery 7 points 2 years ago

Yes, I basically searched for which one is least likely to defederate from random shit.

I'm prepared to traverse seas of horrors to bring home fresh memes every single day (except I sometimes skip alternating Tuesdays if I have to wait for too long to say hi to Reginald).

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Juice 2 points 2 years ago

I'm not sure what's going on in this comment but I like it

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Evil_Shrubbery 2 points 2 years ago

You are in luck:

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Theharpyeagle 3 points 2 years ago

Meh, that's kind of the point, no? Seems like it would be more jarring to only federate at the community level, as you either a) still have to interact with people from the unwanted instance or b) deal with randomly hidden comments from that instance. If the community dies because it's on an unpopular instance, well, that's the way it goes. Can always start up/join a community on another instance that's federated with yours.

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finitebanjo 15 points 2 years ago

When Musk took over Twitter he allowed violent and extremist views to flood it without moderation.

That's the sort of community Lemmy would be if we didn't have the tools needed to keep it clean of harmful ideologies.

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Cowbee 14 points 2 years ago

You mean like Exploding Heads? I agree, fuck Nazis.

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finitebanjo -21 points 2 years ago

When nazis start enforcing their ideology I will raise arms, until then your sentiment closely resembles the goal of propagandists on these sites: create division and cause violence.

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Cowbee 16 points 2 years ago

What are you talking about? Exploding Heads is a literal Nazi Lemmy Instance that was defederated by pretty much every major instance.

Or are you going on an Anticommunist rant?

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finitebanjo -8 points 2 years ago

I have no context about the community, I assumed you were advocating for exploding heads of political enemies as a way of keeping feeds clean, because the comment explicitly reads as such.

There is nothing communist about Nazis, just like theres nothing Democratic about the DPRK.

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goferking0 2 points 2 years ago

And those harmful ideologies are.?

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finitebanjo -4 points 2 years ago

White Supremacy, Anti-immigrant, Anti-Trade, Anti-NATO, Anti-human-rights for LGBT, etc.

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Cowbee 7 points 2 years ago

Anti-Trade

What does this mean?

Anti-NATO

It's good to be Anti-NATO, NATO has Nazi origins and serves as a way to maintain Western Hegemony, securing profits via Imperialism and defending said Imperialism through coalition.

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KillingTimeItself -1 points 2 years ago
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finitebanjo -2 points 2 years ago

Lmao

Mutual defense and deterrent to invasion by hostile world powers both in and outside of NATO is a bad thing? Sure, okay pal.

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davel 5 points 2 years ago

I’ve got bad news for you: a lot of us are anti-NATO.

Also, what the hell is anti-trade? Do you want every Westphalian state to build a wall around itself?

Edit to add: Oh I see, you created this new account because @FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today got permabanned from lemmy.ml 😂 Let’s see how long this one lasts…

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finitebanjo 0 points 2 years ago

A lot of X Users support ending all trade relations with China via heavy tarriffs.

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finitebanjo -2 points 2 years ago
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IAmNotACat 2 points 2 years ago

anti-NATO

A “harmful ideology”? Is someone paying you to spout this propaganda?

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finitebanjo 1 point 2 years ago

NATO's only function is mutual defense, NATO support ends when a member attacks.

Since the only thing NATO does is prevent War, the only anti-NATO stance is a pro-war stance.

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graphene 2 points 2 years ago

Ah yes, free trade, the thing that improved the economies of ex-communist countries after the USSRs collapse and is on the path to fixing almost every African nations poverty.

Ah yes, NATO, the "we will only call for (and maybe possibly do something to enforce) human rights if it's convenient for us" alliance. And I'm sure all it's member nations have squeaky clean track records when it comes to international politics.

We must ban anyone against these things! That's dangerous extremist ideology

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goferking0 0 points 2 years ago

Who do you think are supporting those?

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finitebanjo -2 points 2 years ago

Elon Musk, owner of Xitter

The fuck is that question?

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match 13 points 2 years ago

let people defederate idgaf

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KillingTimeItself 10 points 2 years ago

this is so true lmao.

mm yes federated media platform, surely i won't run into shitty people now

runs into shitty people:

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sem 10 points 2 years ago

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h3mlocke 8 points 2 years ago

🥱

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Melody 6 points 2 years ago

In aggregate; 5 instances, less than 5 communities, and more than 69, nice, blocked users.

I don't mess around. I don't hesitate to block people who argue needlessly, make my experience less informational or less entertaining, troll, or disregard arguments made in foundational logic to push a point of view or 'win the argument'. Similarly my instance ignores downvotes and does not display them; as with most platforms which behave similarly to reddit; they simply do not work outside of your personal, local account, local instance, user-sorting context.

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daniskarma 5 points 2 years ago

Everyone likes dialectics and agree that it's the best method to learn and move the thinking forward... Until they actually met with some antithesis of their thinking.

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AceFuzzLord 4 points 2 years ago

Have yet to personally block any instances. So far I think the closest I've come is blocking a spider community because fuck those hell spawns and a Minecraft community or two.

Edit:

Found out there's more than I remember being blocked. Multiple mc communities, a cock community (, because that stuff ain't for me and I remember accidentally clicking on one post from there by accident), a pussy community because I don't come here for porn, a Sintendo community, some bikinibottomtwitter or something similarly named community (you can guess why), and for some reason an xbox community (couldn't tell you why).

Also, I noticed for some reason I have someone from a different instance that I cannot remember why I blocked. Some guy from lemmt(dot)tf, so I have absolutely no clue since I have no idea what that instance is like, let alone remember anything about that account.

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graphene 1 point 2 years ago

🥺 not the spiders

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AceFuzzLord 1 point 2 years ago

As an arachnophobe, I personally made it my mission to block that community without looking so I'd never have to see it again. Can't stand spiders.

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graphene 1 point 2 years ago

If you have arachnophobia then it's understandable 😔

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WldFyre 4 points 2 years ago

That's why hexbear and blahaj are still federated, right? /s

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Cowbee 6 points 2 years ago

What are you on about? Hexbear and Blahaj are still federated.

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WldFyre 6 points 2 years ago

I wasn't aware they refederated, when did that happen?

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Cowbee 6 points 2 years ago

Ah, you meant Hexbear and Blahaj with each other, gotcha.

Hexbear defederated Blahaj and they remain defederated.

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P4ulin_Kbana 1 point 2 years ago
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Funkwonker 3 points 2 years ago

Defederation is weak sauce. Just block/tag accounts that aren't willing to engage in good faith, and your page clears up pretty quickly.

At the end of the day, there aren't even that many people stirring the pot. They're just unhealthily active.

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ruckblack 2 points 2 years ago
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Evil_Shrubbery 2 points 2 years ago

Rofl the Reddit eyes are perfect.

Also ... the last panel sounds like lemmyon.grab ...

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P4ulin_Kbana 3 points 2 years ago
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TokenBoomer 1 point 2 years ago

lol, true.

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affiliate -1 points 2 years ago

yep, this is a lemmy.ml post alright

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Sasha 2 points 2 years ago
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FluffyPotato -2 points 2 years ago
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Cowbee 7 points 2 years ago

Like lemmygrad seems to be some fascist propaganda and hexbear is the same

Lemmygrad and Hexbear are Communists (as well as anarchists in the case of Hexbear), the polar opposite of fascism.

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FluffyPotato 0 points 2 years ago

They aren't like any other anarchist I know and I'm in a local anarchist group. Like no anarchist should ever be defending authoritarian governments.

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Cowbee 2 points 2 years ago

You could try talking to them instead of calling them fascists, there's a good chance you have no idea what they actuslly believe and are filling in gaps with your own imagination.

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FluffyPotato 0 points 2 years ago

I tried to understand why they were defending governments like in Russia, North Korea and China but got permabanned for sectarianism.

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AI_toothbrush -4 points 2 years ago

Funny coming from an ml user because you are the guys who banned me because i commented something you didnt agree with

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Cowbee 12 points 2 years ago

OP is not a Lemmy.ml user, nor do users have the power to ban you. You're tilting at windmills.

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