Additional reminder that Hitler's invasion of Europe was tolerated by the major powers riiiiight up until he invaded one of the "countries that actually matter".
Additional additional reminder that the major powers initially PRAISED Hitler for killing all the communists.
zuätzlicher treppenwitz der geschichte: most german communists at the time were killed in the Soviet Union.
Yes just as every other nazi country deserves it (and it was in 2022). Too bad it couldn't be done by communists, but somebody worked very hard to destroy the socialist state, the same somebody who promoted nazis in Ukraine. And the same somebody mentioned by @HiddenLayer555@lemmy.ml. The same which was imitated in racist, expansionists, genocidal doctrines by nazi Germany. So many coincidences here...
But the meme is about the comparison of the same people looking back and looking at the present.
Let's not pretend that the Nazis didn't have a massive amount of support (and still does). Reminder that the vast majority of Germans at the time were in full support of the Holocaust in the same way that the vast majority of Israelis are in full support of the genocide in Palestine. Badmouthing the Holocaust in any of the Axis Powers countries would have been met with the same kind of backlash, and people in the Anglosphere just don't want to admit that the societies we live in are the new Axis Powers and do in fact want the Palestinians exterminated the same way that Nazi Germany wanted the Jews exterminated.
The vast majority of Germans did not know about the death camps. They were under the impression that the Jews were held in labour and prison camps and only learned about the genocide towards the end of the war, around 1943.
My (great)grandparents were in the Dutch resistance and saved many people, including Jews. They thought they were saving them from labour and prison camps.
They also only learned about the death camps towards the end of the war when news of it started leaking out. This made them even more resolved to save whom they could, which was hard in the Dutch famine in the 1944/1945 winter. They gave away a lot of food that winter.
Neither they, nor the Germans, could do much more than that. Trying to protest the Holocaust would lead to immediate arrest by the Nazi's.
Also, even the Nazi's didn't know about the Holocaust until the 1942 Wannsee conference where they invented it as "the final solution". By that time the war had entered its third year.
My point is, unlike the Israelis today, the German public as whole at that time can only be accused of being complicit in genocide, during a period where they themselves were under martial law. They can not be accused of supporting genocide while still enjoying civil rights.
Which is why I have more disdain for the Israelis today.
Let’s call it a cluster fuck that has been going on for 100s of years. And will continue well past your and my deaths.
Then. We. Should. Stop. Arming. Israel.
Because as it stands now, Western countries are not just complicit in genocide, they're actively helping to perpetuate it. Your tax dollars are being used to exterminate an ethnic group. Mine too.
If we were to ACTUALLY call it a clusterfuck and walk away, that would be BETTER than what we're doing right now.
Israel was holding ~12k hostages held without charges or access to legal representation when Hamas took theirs on Oct 7, just after Israel had taken over al aqsa mosque on Oct 4.
Hamas tried to trade those hostages the very next day. Israel refused to trade any Palestinian hostages. So Hamas refuses too. If you'd be honest, you'd admit that Israel doesnt want those hostages back. They'd much rather have a new flimsy reason to blow innocent civilians up and steal their land. And what was Israel doing stealing Al Aqsa mosque on the 4th? was that just a peaceful thing you think? Not intended to stoke conflict, just minding their own business, is that your story?
"Let’s call it a cluster fuck that has been going on for 100s of years. And will continue well past your and my deaths."
-- You
By your own logic, we should let Israel deal with its own problems. Why does the West have to keep supplying them with weapons?
Also, Israel's actions since Oct 7 have exceeded tenfold the depravity of Hamas's crimes on that date so it's interesting how selective your sympathy is. Getting kidnapped or killed by Hamas is horrible, obviously, but can the same not be said about getting carpet bombed by Israel?
USA went to war for 20years after 9/11
Yeah because that was such a successful thing and definitely didn't make things worse for all involved. It also totally didn't kill far more civilians in the Middle East than the 9/11 attacks killed civilians in the US.
Stop pretending that was some heroic thing and just admit that it was an act of revenge and collective punishment. Just like what Israel is doing right now.
Hamas refuses to release the hostages.
They've been paid back for their attack 100 times over. What exactly do you think would get them to release any remaining hostages at this point?
Israel is founded on Settler-Colonialism of Palestine, it has a century long history in its current iteration. Just like the US genocide of indigenous peoples, Israelis are committing genocide against Palestinians and stealing their land. Equating them is to erase this very central fact, Israel cannot exist without genocide and Settler-Colonialism, while Palestine can. Trying to pretend there's a deep, several century long history of the current fascist Israeli state is false.
Let’s call it a cluster fuck that has been going on for 100s of years
Lets not, because you're flat out lying about that, bangcrash. 100 years. Not hundreds. In the ~800 years of the ottoman empire this wasnt happening, and that empire ended in November 1922.
Zionists like to lie about this history to make it seem like an intractable problem of ethnic hatred, but its self serving BS driven by 80 years of apartheid by Israel on the people living in that region, starting with the Zionist terrorism leading up to the Nakba.
The UN needs to admit they royally effed up in creating Israel back in 1948, and walk that back. Zionist terrorists have no right to be known as an israeli state in 1948, and no right to treat human beings in this manner from then until today. Israel needs to be disolved and the Israelis sent back to Russia and Europe where they came from. 80 years is enough. the ongoing injustice and genocide needs to end before the Israelis kill every non-jew in the region.
If the UN cannot or will not do that they are criminals themselves and should disolve in shame.
The Nakba was murderous land theft, and 80 years of murderous apartheid and human rights violations cant be defended. The terrorism and mass murder is a daily occurrence, and yet you whine about "ethnic cleansing" like Israel is some sort of victim.
Restorative justice is possible, but the UN land plan was unjust and needs to be rescinded. I dont care if murderers and terrorists like it. GTFO.
Conflating Jews and Israelis is bigoted. Jews have lived in the Levant uninterrupted for thousands of years. They were not in Israel for the vast majority of that time.
I am a Jew. I am not an Israeli. I have no affiliation with or affinity for Israel. Do not associate me with them.
Genocide is bad no matter who it happens to??
damn bro, that's bathroom-stall-at-hot-topic level profound.
The Neoliberals supporting the white colonist state very overtly because of the ethnicity of the people that state claims to represent, have always been as Racist as the Fascists, they just passed themselves as anti-Racist by focusing on telling us that whole races are inherently better and deserving of better treatment than other races, whilst the Fascists tend to focus on telling us bad things about races (though, if you pay attention, the Fascists too claim that those of certain races are inherently better and deserving of better treatment).
The Racism isn't the telling bad things about a race, it's the assumption that all people of a race are the same, equally worthy or unworthy and deserving of different treatment for no reason other than the race they were born in - it's a form of dehumanization of individuals which, if you look more broadly at the suffering the Neoliberals are willing to inflict on billions of people in the Economic field in order to profit from it, is really just one facet of their general Sociopath posture towards the rest of Humanity, complete with deceit, manipulation and gaslighting.
What the Zionist Genocide - a most appalling sociopathic savagery openly committed by those the Neoliberals claim as the representatives of an ethnicity which they deem "good" - and the support of it by the Neoliberals very overtly due to the ethnicity of those committing those acts, have made very clear to everybody else is that the Neoliberal form of Racist is just as extreme as the Fascist one, and being anchored on exactly the same view of people as "etnics" rather than individuals, easily turns into the same kind of Evil: because it's entirely anchored on Prejudicial and Discriminatory views not Logic (even though they disguise their Racism by claiming it's just a logical "helping a group which is a victim of oppression"), when the "representatives" of those they see as "good races" act in even the most Evil of ways the Neoliberals just keep on supporting them far beyond the point to which the argumentation they used in their claims of anti-Racism (such as "helping a group which is a victim of oppression") can stretch.
This is the point at which we are now: their Racism together with the actions of the "representatives" of a "good" race has stretched the Neoliberal "we're really against-Racism" so far it uncovered the real dark nature of what lies under it.
I do not condemn the Gaza Palestinian prison break of October 7, 2023.
Palestinians have the legal right under UN law to struggle against their occupiers by any means necessary, including armed struggle, while Israel, as an occupier, has no right to “self defense.”
Oh I guess I can if I don’t use Memmy. Apparently I got banned for “bigotry” on a bunch of subs I’ve never used in blahaj. As far as I can tell it’s because I said “seems like unnecessary rage bait” on a post about Pixar removing a trans story from one of their shows. lol how stupid.
You’re permabanned from the entire instance: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/modlog?actionType=ModBan&userId=8711226
Rule 11 in their sidebar says “no misinformation” - perhaps you conflated an opinion for fact?
If you go to sh.it just.works’s website and search the mod log by your name you’ll see what comment “earned” you a ban.
You can click on the little arrow on the righternmost of up/down vote buttons and from the popup menu choose the comment moderation history, it would show you the content of removed post.
Condemn? I commend freedom fighters taking military action against settler colonial ethnocentric apartheid genociders.
Do you also condemn the ANC?
To clarify I only meant the attacks on civilians. There will never be a way to justify the senseless killing of those. There are other ways than violence to get rid of them. Ofc the whole situation in Gaza is fucked beyond comparison but there has to be another way on the world political stage to resolve this instead of letting it cook like we now do.
To clarify I only meant the attacks on civilians.
The ANC also attacked civilians. Though you should note how dramatically more the Israelis (and the SA government and white South Africans) target civilians.
There will never be a way to justify the senseless killing of those.
When under occupation, any means necessary is not only sanctioned by international law, it is necessary. Note that the kibbutzim in the area had armories and shot at the al Aqsa flood participants, which included a wide coalition as well as whoever simply went past the walls of their own volition.
How is it senseless, by the way? Do you actually know what happened on the ground? Who did what? What was going in in their heads? What their lives were? There is an implicit chauvinism in the use of clichés and guesses rather than become educated.
There are other ways than violence to get rid of them.
No there aren't. You apparently know nothing about the history here, the many movements that attempted peaceful means, even as recent as the Great March of Return in 2018. And the repeated lies and violence that Palestinians have faced following every diplomatic agreement.
As you can see, the Israelis will speed up and openly embrace genocide at the mere perception that they are not totally dominant over those that they occupy. Israelis march not for peace or justice, but for harsher violence and getting rapists out of jail. They are an ethnic supremacist culture that embrace the genocide they are committing. You cannot "peace" your way out of that. You would condemn Palestinians to extinction.
For concentration camp victims, they are far more restrained than virtually anyone. Would you also condemn the Sioux for killing settlers occupying their land? Why not instead materially oppose the settler colonists? Your tut-tutting is just tacit both-sidesing of a decidedly imbalanced situation.
Ofc the whole situation in Gaza is fucked beyond comparison but there has to be another way on the world political stage to resolve this instead of letting it cook like we now do.
There is not. You have an unrealistic idea about how geopolitics and imperialist violence function. It is not like the movies or the 1 or 2 examples of allegedly nonviolent movements recuperated by capitalism. You're not going to win just because you are right or empathetic. You will not convince your captors and child murderers with a good speech and some protests. Most of the states, i.e. the major sourcea of military power in the world, will not step in to help you unless it serves their self interest - and most capitalist countries see subverting themselves to the US and therefore Israel as in their self interest.
And when states or similar forces do step up, you get tacit genocide apologetic PR campaigns against them. Such as, "do you condemn Hamas?"
The historical and realistic source of liberation is organized armed struggle.
Hamas has tried all other ways. They did a peaceful march in 2019 and Israel still massacred them.
Hamas killed very few civilians. Most of those killed were trained soldiers who would have now participated in the Gaza genocide
To clarify I only meant the attacks on civilians. There will never be a way to justify the senseless killing of those.
Getting all high and mighty about when Palestinians kill civilians while conveniently ignoring Israel's actions (both after this event and in the decades that led to it) makes your argument extremely bad faith.
If we're going by number of civilians killed by each side, then the Palestinians are very much in the right.
Also, define civilian. I wasn't there, have no stake in either side, and obviously have no personal desire for anyone on either side to get harmed, but I can sort of underatand why the victims of a genocidal occupation might not exactly consider the occupiers who stole their land to be innocent civilians.
instead of letting it cook like we now do.
"Letting it cook" would be an improvement to what we're currently doing, which is actively supporting and arming Israel.
I feel like this would be less strawmanny if the kid was saying "ethnic nationalism is evil" instead. Because while no one's actually defending "genocide", lots of people do defend zionism and the definition of zionism is basically white nationalism, but specific to jews.
The problem is that people have equated Israel to genocide to jewish people in general. So if you criticize the genocide the listener is free to imply you are critical of jewish people, therefore an antisemite.
When you ask people what they would do if they had a time machine, a lot of them would mention "go back in time and kill Hitler". But I've been having this thought lately - and I know it's deeply problematic and inconsistent - but what if Hitler actually was from the future and decided to travel back in time to prevent the genocide that Israel is currently executing.
They're quoting this comedy sketch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKw8Y4AzH_Y&t=339
Wow! I have not seen that standup routine or heard anyone mention those thoughts before. I'm very glad that I am not alone with having that problematic idea pop into my head.
And I - just like Daniel Fernandes - should clarify that I do not under any circumstance attempt to white wash Hitler. It's merely a stray thought which makes a crazy plot line.
Ok first off, I do not in any way support what netanyahu and the idf are doing at the moment. It's fucking abhorrent. But, I will say that the Jews in Nazi Germany weren't committing random acts of brutality against German civilians, and had never officially pledged in writing to eradicate all the germans. Again not an excuse, I just think it's a little flippant to compare the two.
But, I will say that the Jews in Nazi Germany weren’t committing random acts of brutality against German civilians
Neither are the vast majority of Palestinians doing that to Israelis.
and had never officially pledged in writing to eradicate all the german
See above.
Your comment is not dissimilar from the "all Jews want to destroy the German race" bulllshit the Nazis spewed. Both are sweeping, malicious generalizations that aim to justify the oppression and collective punishment of entire ethnic groups.
I would also like to point out that just like the current Israeli administration, Hamas was democratically elected. So enough people agreed with their policies to put them in that position. Again, I actually know a few Palestinians, they're good people, but I also understand that it's pretty difficult for someone who has lost people close to them to to differentiate between the Palestinians who killed their sister because she was a Jew and the ones who didn't. Again I'm not supporting genocide here.
They were "elected" before most of the population in Gaza was even born.
The current genocidal Israeli leadership was also democratically elected, and very recently at that, and their approval rating has only increased. What does that say about the majority of Israelis? Why do they deserve your sympathy if the Palestinians don't because of who they voted for?
but I also understand that it’s pretty difficult for someone who has lost people close to them to to differentiate between the Palestinians who killed their sister because she was a Jew and the ones who didn’t
Care to clarify this BTW?
Hitler was elected too.
Just because people have the right to vote doesn't make them intelligent and informed voters. People vote based upon information they have, and 1930s Germany was rife with propaganda. Half the people are dumber than average, and they all vote too.
What a shock, a .worlder advocating for collective punishment and excusing genocide.
You're a genocide denier, the difference between that and genocide support is just the difference between an honest man and a lying shit stain like you.
And guess what, Israel is just like the Nazis.
In trying to point out an error, you make a far larger one: by failing to account for the very real quantitative and qualitative differences, you equate the two, and erase the real fact that Israel is commiting genocide in much the same way as the US does with indigenous Americans, to fuel settler-colonialism. The violence reflected by Palestinians towards Israelis has origin in the genocide perpetuated by the state of Israel. Regardless of the pain some settlers may be feeling for having this violence returned, the origin is from the settlers and the only way out for Palestinians has proven to be violence against their oppressors.
the only way out for Palestinians has proven to be violence against their oppressors.
Bullshit.
In an effort to acknowledge a continued commitment to the Palestinian cause on the part of the Saudi leadership, Saudi Arabia and the United States sought concessions from Israel on issues related to the Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. As the possibility of an imminent deal gained plausibility in August–September, the Palestinian Authority also became involved in discussions with Saudi Arabia and the United States in an effort to gain sway over the deal’s final shape. But concerns remained that the Palestinians’ grievances in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would remain unresolved and that they would lose a key point of leverage if Saudi Arabia normalized ties with Israel. On October 7, Hamas orchestrated a devastating assault on Israel in part to disrupt the deal from taking place.
Hamas didn't exist in 1948, and still doesn't exist in the West Bank. Or in Syria (especially since Assad left). Or Lebanon. Even if you think Assad and Lebanon are part of a greater threat, the West Bank is not a threat, and Assad is gone. So yes, the comparison does stand.
Also, Nazis in Germany were in their own country, and decided to cleanse it from a bunch of groups they considered not good enough. Israel sat in a piece of someone else's land, and are trying cleanse out everyone else, claiming they own the whole land. That's not just Palestine btw, they've recently been talking about this greater Israel idea.
But who is the responsible party here? Who first began spouting out rhetoric of annihilation towards a whole ethnic group? Zionists, go back to theodore herzel and the original middle eastern terrorist groups Haganah, palmach and lehi who were responsible for dozens of violent attacks and killed an estimated 6-8000 Palestinian jews, Christians and muslims as well as occupying British forces. In the years before the israeli occupation began These terrorist groups were then simultaneously condemned by the newly established israeli government while their military absorbed their leadership and members into their newly formed military apparatus. Im not saying hamas’s actions are any less awful, but international law does state that indigenous populations have a right to defend themselves by any means necessary and they are clearly defending themselves when you see the ratio of casualties was in the 20 to 1 range and that was before Israel used the 10-7-23 attack as pretense to unleash an all out annihilation of the Palestinian population in gaza and around other settler projects as well.
Israel bears responsibility here and ignoring this while saying “hamas is bad” and “do you condemn hamas” just shows a level of ignorance that is astoundingly absurd. When israel is clearly guilty of rhetoric and actions that are objectively worse but holding hamas to a standard that israel is free from being measured against. What planet are we on here?
Hamas wants to commit genocide and has succeeded to do so on a much smaller scale.
Fuck off, that's like saying the occupants of the Warsaw ghetto "wanted to commit genocide and succeeded to do so on a small scale."
Get outta here with yer facts and history!
My 13 year old daughter was called a Nazi at school because she's of Jewish descent. Not Israeli, Jewish.
But don't let that stop your enjoyment of this strawman comic that pretends like anti semitism plays Zero part in the reaction
If that happened, huge if these days, that's awful. Doesn't excuse the genocide Israel is doing, doesn't stop the fact Israel needs to be completely dismantled.
Every modern ethnostate so far has committed genocide. Ethnostates are bad.
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Obligatory reminder that when Polish envoy Jan Karski presented evidence of holocaust to British and US government and societal elites during his mission in 1942 and 1943 he was basically ignored.
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