Fed-up Torvalds suggests disabling AMD’s 'stupid' performance-killing fTPM RNG

3 years ago by floofloof to c/linux

Some Ryzen Linux machines still stumble along despite efforts to fix it all
rastilin 94 points 3 years ago

TPM is basically never for your benefit. It's becoming a requirement because Microsoft is going to one day say "you can only run apps installed from the Windows Store, because everything else is insecure" and lock down the software market. Valve knows this which is why they're going so hard on the Steam Deck and Linux.

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skullgiver 59 points 3 years ago

[This comment has been deleted by an automated system]

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socsa 62 points 3 years ago

This is why I keep my initrd tattooed as a barcode on my testicles.

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evatronic 37 points 3 years ago

"Please teabag the web cam to boot."

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BatrickPateman 16 points 3 years ago
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Wats0ns 14 points 3 years ago

There's two types of users, those who write a detailed precise technical answer to the subject, and then there's you

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JuxtaposedJaguar 10 points 3 years ago

Kernel upgrades are very... Painful.

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zalgotext 4 points 3 years ago

You know, I've been thinking about what I want my first tattoo to be for months, you've just given me a great idea

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Ghast 24 points 3 years ago

I don't know why I keep hearing of security measures to stop someone sleuthing into bootloaders.

Am I the only person using Linux who isn't James Bond?

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skullgiver 17 points 3 years ago

[This comment has been deleted by an automated system]

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eager_eagle 11 points 3 years ago

so you never caught a team of government officials in your living room brute forcing your bootloader at 4am as you got up to use the bathroom, huh. Lucky guy.

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TurtleTourParty 5 points 3 years ago path: 0 1965043 1965096 1965156 2002257 2013487, hotness: undefined, score: 5, children: 0
Shinhoshi 1 point 3 years ago

Silly Lemmy user, it’s 4am and I’m on Lemmy

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hansl 8 points 3 years ago

I’m an engineer with trade secrets on his laptop. I’ve heard of dozens of people getting laptops stolen from their cars that they left for like ten or fifteen minutes.

The chances are slims, but if it happens I’m in deep trouble whether those secrets leak of not. I’m not taking the risk. I’m encrypting my disk.

It’s not like there’s a difference in performance nowadays.

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duncesplayed 5 points 3 years ago

TPM's not going to help with that situation, though, right? Either you're typing in your encryption password on boot (in which case you don't need TPM to keep your password), or you're not, in which case the thief has your TPM module with the password in it.

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JuxtaposedJaguar 3 points 3 years ago

It's 30% legitimate concern over a non-negligible risk of government overreach, 70% having fun pretending to be James Bond.

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hansl 2 points 3 years ago
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MonkderZweite 1 point 3 years ago

I mean, i do have some stuff that i encrypt, but encrypting the folder or packing it on a small partitiin and encrypting only this fs after booting makes more sense to me.

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The_Mixer_Dude -1 points 3 years ago

I'm still on the hunt for a desktop Linux distro that has no security features or passwords. My usage for this may not be common but it can't be rare enough that there are zero options

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BlinkerFluid 7 points 3 years ago

Ubuntu, no encryption, select boot to desktop by default when the system installs.

Like, really?

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interdimensionalmeme 7 points 3 years ago

TPM bad, put your secrets on a proper encryption peripheral, like a smartcard running javacardOS

TPM will turn into cpu-bound DRM, the more you use it, the more this cancer will grow

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skullgiver 13 points 3 years ago

[This comment has been deleted by an automated system]

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interdimensionalmeme 1 point 3 years ago

You are only seeing what TPM is now. Not what TPM will become when it become an entire encrypted computing processor capable of executing any code while inspection is impossible.

Imagine denuvo running at ring level -1

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MonkderZweite 2 points 3 years ago

Trusting some obscure hardware might be a bad idea then.

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bouh -12 points 3 years ago

Why do you need full disk encryption in your day to day life? Are you a secret agent? I feel like that would give you our though.

It's not a matter that I would have nothing to hide, this defense is stupid. It's a matter that you should use a security adapted to your need, because the cost doesn't offset the benefit otherwise. And with disk encryption you will far more often be sorry than happy if you're a normal person.

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mplewis 6 points 3 years ago

Full disk encryption is something you really want to have when your computer is lost or stolen.

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mackwinston 0 points 3 years ago

People are imperfect. People have left laptops full of personal and/or commercially sensitive data on trains or planes, had them stolen from cars and houses etc. Full disc encryption is a defence against data breaches especially for computers that are not bolted down. Or it might be as simple as a person not wanting the embarrassment of their porn stash being found.

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dingus 3 points 3 years ago

https://hothardware.com/...

I mean I generally agree with you, but the SteamDeck runs on an AMD processor with a fTPM that Valve slowly added support for.

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floofloof 5 points 3 years ago

It seems unlikely Valve will ever make Windows the primary OS for their devices. And they'd lose a lot of user support if they ever required the TPM for their own software, so hopefully they wouldn't risk it.

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bear 11 points 3 years ago

Why does everybody seem to think that userspace attestation is the only use for the TPM? The primary use is for data to be encrypted at rest but decrypted at boot as long as certain flags aren't tripped. TPM is great for the security of your data if you know how to set it up.

Valve is never going to require TPM attestation to use Steam, that's just silly. Anti-cheat companies might, but my suggestion there is to just not play games that bundle malware.

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fred 6 points 3 years ago

Whatever is touted as the primary use doesn't matter as much as what anti-user features it enables.

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ipkpjersi 1 point 3 years ago

I like to think that Valve knows better than to try that.

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dingus -1 points 3 years ago

I doubt they would risk it as well, but the point is that it exists on the SteamDeck and can be utilized.

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some_guy 0 points 3 years ago

So what’s your point?

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nan 2 points 3 years ago

We use the TPM pretty extensively with no Windows in the environment.

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ArcticAmphibian 1 point 3 years ago

But with a reason, I'm sure. There's no reason for the everyday consumer to need one, other than Microsoft wanting more control.

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kingthrillgore 3 points 3 years ago

TPM actually provides some useful components to isolate encryption outside of Ring 0, which is a trust win. But any technology must be weighted against its power to oppress.

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vrighter 3 points 3 years ago

yes, the reason is to securely store cryptographic keys. even your own. It comes preloaded with microsoft ones usually, but you're free to delete them and install your own

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bear 1 point 3 years ago

Data encryption and decryption without entering a password is a pretty darn good reason.

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ArcticAmphibian -4 points 3 years ago

Sure, but does a grandmother's Solitaire & Facebook PC really need quick encrypting and decrypting? Anyone not dealing with sensitive info doesn't need one.

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some_guy -3 points 3 years ago

the average citizen has nothing to hide therefore deserves no privacy

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SteveTech 6 points 3 years ago

I think you forgot a /s

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Hexarei 0 points 3 years ago

I'm sure you'll be ok sending me your social security number, home address, bank login details, credit card number, a copy of all the files on your hard drive...

I mean, you deserve no privacy right?

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SkyNTP 1 point 3 years ago

Support for old software is now the only reason to use windows.

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Bipta 6 points 3 years ago

I'm a big fan of Linux, but I can't believe you really think this.

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socsa 7 points 3 years ago

I legitimately have not booted into windows for years.

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bluejay 3 points 3 years ago

Sadly, I agree. I'm at the point now where as long as I'm not trying to game I can thrive on Linux. But even then I spend way more time than necessary getting things to work that do so out of the box on Windows. We have a long way to go before legacy apps is the only reason to run it.

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HuntressHimbo 2 points 3 years ago

Personally I found the time I saved from not having any control over my system has more than made up for tinkering that I have to do to get things running. My laptop would regularly become unusable for 20+ minutes on windows because of disk performance issues, and I as the user had no means to prevent windows from running the service that locked everything up. That along with other times windows just decides your use case is less important have added up to far more time then having to debug a game here and there

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Ret2libsanity 0 points 3 years ago

TPM is pretty important in any modern OS.

Sure you don’t need it. But it’s not 2013. It should be standard along with FDE

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nicman24 0 points 3 years ago

You do realize that he is talking about a RNG gen and not the TPM?

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nan 1 point 3 years ago

It is talking about the RNG built into the fTPM.

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Rhabuko 0 points 3 years ago

And now Imagine Linux had actually more market share on the Desktop. But for that, Linux needs at least a little more software support to be reliable for other people. And that software is usually not open source. Maybe with Flatpak, it will finally get somewhere in that regard, if there's enough interest from people.

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s_s 2 points 3 years ago

Most people are unable to administrate their own systems, therefore GNU/Linux--an operating system built on empowering developers and administrators--is basically unimaginable.

Microsoft and Apple have co-opted the admin duties for users, and that's why people use their operating systems. It spares them from the disaster we all saw and experienced in the Window XP days--but that comes at a price.

It's not software support, it's not anythign to do with Linux. It's a computer illiteracy problem.

Android could, in some respects, be considered linux's biggest success story among regular users and that's because Google co-opts admin duties.

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PoisonedPrisonPanda 2 points 3 years ago

its not about the software support.

its because people are lazy to learn. most people dont even know that an OS can be different.

for them windows is defacto THE PC.

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n00dl3 1 point 3 years ago

Most people dont want an OS to be different. They are happy if it boots up and does what they want to do. It's not lazy, it's an active disagreement with the premise.

This is why nobody upgrades to Windows 10 from 7, or to 11 from 10. Security risks and lack of features aside, their OS just works for them.

These things are only a concern to enthusiasts.

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evatronic 0 points 3 years ago

It's also why, as shitty behavior as it is, MS getting aggressive about upgrading to 10/11 is a net good, from a security standpoint.

I am intentionally ignoring the "10/11 is just spyware with an OS bundled in" thing in the above statement.

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Sethayy 0 points 3 years ago

Realistically windows is really good at repairing itself (or just getting it to a state where its usable again, to most users would be 'repaired').

Until linux has some sort of system like this, its just not worth the headache to 99% of users. The linux errors aren't even that descriptive when they happen, and could be cause by like anything.

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Dubious_Fart 2 points 3 years ago

100% Agree.

It will never be the year of the linux desktop, until linux is easy to use and easy to troubleshoot and fix.

and let me tell you, every minor problem requiring some kind of arcane terminal ritualism in ancient enochian that only veteran sysadmins know, is not, and will never be, easy to use or troubleshoot.

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Thorned_Rose 1 point 3 years ago

Timeshift

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Rhabuko 0 points 3 years ago

Sorry but that's just wrong. Enough people simply don't even consider Linux because their needed software doesn't work + there's no equivalent alternative. And my PC/OS is not a hobby or a Ideology. It's a tool that I use to work with.

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CAPSLOCKFTW 2 points 3 years ago

Is it really wrong? Do you have numbers? I think the most people claim above is at least plausible. It surely fits my personal experience, but that is of course not worth much.

I would argue that most people use their PC for web browsing, light photo editing and personal office stuff and maybe gaming (at least outside work) and those people are not affected by "the software I need does not work and there is no alternative".

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mnemonicmonkeys 0 points 3 years ago

I think it's more that there's a perception of things not being compatible with Linux nowadays. A lot of the games that didn't work 5 years ago now do, and I'm still seeing people complain that games like Halo Infinite don't work on there when they actually do.

The only things I can think of that aren't compatible and required for some tasks are Photoshop and professional CAD/CAE software. For >90% of the population Linux should be able to handle everything they need

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rastilin 0 points 3 years ago

Linux still has too many issues, for example...

  • Fedora doesn't provide binary drivers even if they exist, you need to get a pluggable wifi usb tool that is supported and install the repositories and configure binary drivers to get wifi working on a huge amount of laptops.
  • Ubuntu does provide binary drivers but the configuration tool can just crash by itself a lot of the time and just fail to load the driver.
  • Ubuntu's desktop sometimes just crashes.
  • Fedora uses some strange memory compression driver to handle its paging file and this can sometimes just crash the OS entirely by itself.

These are major issues that shouldn't be issues, they should either have been fixed as a priority for the crashes or have some kind of workaround that doesn't require owning specific USBs that regular people just won't have. There's no reason for the memory compression thing either, it probably doesn't do that much for performance overall but random hard-locks are a huge negative. Linux is its own worst enemy on the desktop.

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mackwinston 1 point 3 years ago

Sometimes the issues with WiFi chipsets is not the distro but the manufacturer. Debian for instance now includes non-free firmware on its installation ISO image, but some manufacturers do not allow the distribution (e.g. Broadcom) of firmware, so Debian can't legally include them. And unfortunately the manufacturers don't make it easy to "just download the firmware" so you can put it on the USB stick so the installer can see them. (Literally the only issue with putting Debian on my old 2013 Macbook Pro was the Broadcom firmware - but fortunately, having a Debian desktop I could install the firmware downloader there to get the two files the installer needed).

This is not a fault of the Linux distro, but a fault of the hardware manufacturer. Unfortuantely, like the smell of piss in a subway, we all have to deal with Broadcom.

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ryannathans 44 points 3 years ago

Based linus. Kill it, it's pointless

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FunkyMonkey 40 points 3 years ago

I've had a weird system-wide stutter for months and the usual googling and troubleshooting didn't help.. omg. This might be it. Thank you Linus and thank you op.

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floofloof 15 points 3 years ago

I had it on my main Windows PC for a long time. I use this PC for music production and it was infuriating - the sound would just cut out intermittently like the computer couldn't keep up. I tried lots of things, including an expensive CPU upgrade. In the end Asus released a new BIOS for the motherboard to address this AMD stutter, and that fixed it.

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numanair 3 points 3 years ago

Which AGESA version?

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floofloof 8 points 3 years ago

Which AGESA version?

I don't really know anything about that. Currently HWiNFO64 shows Microcode Update Revision A201025 and SMU Firmware Revision 56.74.0. I don't know whether those are the numbers you're asking for, or what they were while it was still having problems.

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numanair 2 points 3 years ago

Thanks for the info! I'll have to check that against what I'm using.

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that_leaflet 6 points 3 years ago
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interdimensionalmeme 34 points 3 years ago

I always just kill my TPM chip. It's so obvious tpm will be used in the future for application offline DRM. They will executed encrypted operations under the TPM veil and decompilers will become unusable.

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MigratingtoLemmy 5 points 3 years ago

How do you kill your TPM chip?

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interdimensionalmeme 15 points 3 years ago

Level 1, turn off in bios

Level 2, desolder from motherboard

Level 3, remove cpu pins related to tpm

Level 4, decap cpu, laser off tpm bus or blocks

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gnutrino 4 points 3 years ago

Level 5, throw computer into a volcano and go live in the woods using no technology more complex than a flint and steel.

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MigratingtoLemmy 1 point 3 years ago

Thank you, the best I can do is level 2 (once I learn how to solder)

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blackstrat 6 points 3 years ago

Disable it in the bios

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xtapa 1 point 3 years ago

Just disabled it in BIOS/UEFI. Should I disable security device support too, or doesn't it matter when fTPM is disabled?

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interdimensionalmeme 1 point 3 years ago

Or depends what they mean by security service support. Presumably some kind of external (usb ?) device ?

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glibg10b 24 points 3 years ago path: 0 1965032, hotness: undefined, score: 24, children: 3
floofloof 13 points 3 years ago

Whoops. Thanks. I corrected the URL in the post.

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GenderNeutralBro 4 points 3 years ago

The wonders of modern technology!

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Rossel 4 points 3 years ago

Man, I'm glad Sync for Lemmy launched today, I really missed the automatic amp removal from links.

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Anticorp 23 points 3 years ago

I love how Torvalds always calls it like he sees it.

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ken27238 13 points 3 years ago

insert nvidia middle finger gif here

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chris 16 points 3 years ago

Inserted

linus Torvalds showing his middle finger towards the camera and at nvidia

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mackwinston 2 points 3 years ago

Honestly, I go watch this video from time to time whenever I need a lift.

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QuazarOmega 18 points 3 years ago

Relevant: Torvalds puts Rust in the kernel

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nomadjoanne 5 points 3 years ago

😂😂😂

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danielfgom 10 points 3 years ago

I agree. If it doesn't work, disable it until it's fixed

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shiroininja 9 points 3 years ago

good thing my Ryzen 1000 series motherboard doesn't even have TPM....I need to upgrade lool

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joel_feila 6 points 3 years ago

How much of a slow down are we talking about

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nomadjoanne 6 points 3 years ago

Oh I disabled that a while ago because their hardware random number generator always returned 0xfffff...

Honesty, hardware random number generation seems sketchy. Something you'd expect government backdoors to be in.

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shapis 5 points 3 years ago

Would love this. I'm still getting the ftpm stutters and there's no way to disable it in my motherboards bios.

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ipkpjersi 3 points 3 years ago

Wow I'm surprised you can't disable it. I can disable it on my desktop BIOS (Gigabyte X570S Pro AX) and my work laptop BIOS (Dell G15).

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LiaWong 1 point 3 years ago

You use a Dell G15 for work?

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ipkpjersi 2 points 3 years ago

I do, yeah.

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LiaWong 1 point 3 years ago

What is it that you do?

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RoundSparrow 3 points 3 years ago

the module can cause intermittent stuttering, depending on which Ryzen processor you're using. It appeared when the fTPM was in use, it would access its flash storage via a serial interface, and when doing so, held up activity by the rest of the system.

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sp00nix 4 points 3 years ago

Could this be why I get stuttering in games after enabling TPM installing windows 11?

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kanzalibrary 2 points 3 years ago

of course it waste of time, even the AMD don't care about that so why need to care? From this, I don't think to ever buying machine with AMD proc on it.

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MonkderZweite 1 point 3 years ago
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room_raccoon 0 points 3 years ago

What is that needle with a ball stuck onto it? In the photograph. Someone please help.

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zqwzzle 2 points 3 years ago

Microphone from a headset.

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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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