shrimp colour drama

2 years ago by fossilesque to c/science_memes

taulover 144 points 2 years ago

The way mantis shrimp see is nonetheless super cool and interesting. They likely have no conception of 2D color at all, and can only sense the 12 different colors in general. Furthermore, only the midband of their eyes see color, when the eyes are moving and scanning for prey, they don't see color at all, which probably helps offload mental load for their small brains. Once they do see something, they then stop moving their eyes to determine the color of what they're looking at.

Also, mantis shrimp have 6 more photoreceptors in addition to the 12 colored ones, to detect polarized light. They likely see them the same way that they see color, so they probably don't consider them anything different than wavelength which is what we interpret as color.

Ed Yong's An Immense World has a section on this and I'd highly recommend it. The ways animals sense and perceive the world are often so different for ours and it's so fascinating.

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kayzeekayzee 76 points 2 years ago

For anyone wondering why they would need to see polarized light: I actually looked into this a few months ago!

Other animals that are trying to blend in with the environment often use countershading appear less conspicuous. The problem with this is that this method can't replicate the polarization of the light behind them, making them stand out if you can see that sort of thing. ((Sunlight in the ocean is always polarized based on the direction of the sun (look up fresnel equations for s and p polarized light))). Even transparent creatures will interrupt the polarization in some way, so this is a very useful skill to have.

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Natanael 7 points 2 years ago

More specifically, polarization changes with the angle of reflection of the surface towards the detector / eye / camera, so every bump in the surface gets a color gradient different from the surroundings when seen by a polarization sensitive eye

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stray 39 points 2 years ago

"Spiders can detect danger coming their way with an early-warning system called eyes."

Really fantastic book. I did have some notes though. Firstly, if honeybees have such low dpi vision, how can they see each other dance? I assume it's because they're experiencing the dance some other way, but how? (Also it's hella dark in there, isn't it?)

He says many times that humanity's umwelt is dominated by sight, but I very much disagree. To lose my hearing or sense of touch would make me feel quite blind, as I use them to perceive things outside my cone of vision constantly. Being in deep water is unnerving for this reason, because I can't "see" what's around me, and I have this whole new area below that I can't hear either. So I have to wonder whether other people feel the way he does or whether my usage is more unique.

He really blew my mind when describing exafference and reafference because these things are reliant on a sense of self in the first place, which means that even the worm in his example must have some form of ego.

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Khanzarate 32 points 2 years ago

You show that you are dominated by sight even as you say you aren't.

Losing your hearing or touch would remove peripheral senses, yes, and certainly that would be unnerving, but think how much worse it would be to lose sight. Hearing wasn't even a factor for you beyond your peripheral, because what you can see is so much clearer, so much more comprehensive, than what you can hear, that hearing is negligible where you have sight.

Hearing is a backup sense. Something you lean on when you don't have sight, but its fidelity is poor enough in people that we rely nearly wholly on sight, when we can.

Losing that cone of vision impacts us far more than our hearing, although of course losing either is massively detrimental.

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executivechimp 7 points 2 years ago

I have heard that the incidence of suicide is higher in deaf people then in blind people, which would suggest that, while our senses are sight dominated, losing our hearing has a bigger impact in some way. That said I can't find a citation for that, so make of it what you will.

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Klear 8 points 2 years ago

Or maybe the blind people just miss more.

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stray 2 points 2 years ago

This is the best I could find on the specific topic: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7888369/

People with visual or hearing sensory impairments had twice the odds of past-year suicidal ideation (OR 2.06; 95% CI 1.17 to 2.73; p<0.001), and over three times the odds of reporting past-year suicide attempt (OR 3.12; 95% CI 1.57 to 6.20; p=0.001) compared with people without these impairments. Similar results were found for hearing and visual impairments separately and co-occurring.

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Natanael 3 points 2 years ago

While sound is not nearly as dominant, it's absolutely not just a backup sense. It's the fastest perception we have (the best rhythm game players can play blind but not deaf), it covers all directions, and even in our sleep we still respond to loud sounds.

Sound perception is so fast that it's often what directs you to look in the right direction, even if what you're reacting to happened in your field of vision.

Funny enough, even our peripheral vision is faster than our central field of vision, to help us avoid predators coming from behind! Our forward directed vision is for tracking and understanding what's in front of us, sound and peripheral vision is in large part for environmental awareness. They're co-dependent!

Humans can even learn echolocation!

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marron12 2 points 2 years ago

Hearing is a backup sense.

That might vary by person, but for me it's not. If I had to pick between being able to see and being able to hear, it'd be hearing, hands down. Being able to see is amazing and I'd miss it, but hearing is just a whole other dimension.

Being able to know how someone is feeling, just by hearing their voice. Listening to music and hearing all the shapes, colors, and feelings that come with it. The colors aren't always ones you can see, like blue or yellow. It's hard to describe. I'll close my eyes and just listen at a concert (not the whole time) and same with TV, a lot of times. I usually remember it better that way.

If I have to find something in a backpack, I'll often do it by feel. I probably look like a raccoon washing its food, but it just works for me. You can tell things apart by feel and sound.

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ReluctantMuskrat 2 points 2 years ago

Your description of hearing shapes and colors sounds a lot like someone with synesthesia, a rare condition that's seems to have no downsides and only benefits.

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Khanzarate 2 points 2 years ago

That's neat.

It makes me wonder if your hearing is better than average or if your eyes are worse, making it not so clear-cut.

Do you need glasses, or have you ever had your hearing tested for whatever reason?

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stray 1 point 2 years ago

I can see only in a limited area at any given time, but I can hear in a full sphere around me simultaneously. I don't think it's accurate to characterize such a large area as "the periphery". One sense is imprecise and covers pretty much everywhere while the other is detailed, but very limited. Both senses work in concert to build a full map of the world, and the loss of either is concerning. I'm more comfortable in a blindfold than isolating headphones though, because I can still echolocate while my vision is impaired, but my vision has no way of emulating hearing's function. I'd have to be constantly looking around all over the place.

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lvxferre 7 points 2 years ago

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stray 2 points 2 years ago

Oh, I see. I thought they communicated much more complex information than that, but it's very practical for simple directions with no further details.

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lvxferre 3 points 2 years ago

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LibertyLizard 62 points 2 years ago

I think this speaks to a significant misunderstanding that most people hold of the way vision actually works.

Most people imagine that vision is a relatively simple process by which our eyes detect and transmit to us the nature of the world. Not so.

Eyes are complex and interesting organs in their own right but fundamentally what they do is relatively simple. They are able to detect and report to the brain certain qualities of the light that hits them. Primarily these are: intensity, direction, and proximity to three points on the frequency spectrum (what we perceive as red, green, and blue). But this data alone is not vision. Vision is a conscious experience our brains create by interpreting and processing this data into the visual field before us—basically, a full scale 3D model of the world in front of us, including the blended information on reflection and emission that color entails.

Quite amazing! Most of this takes place in the human brain, and not the eyes. From this perspective, it is not terribly surprising that an organism with more complex eyes but a much simpler brain might have worse vision than we do.

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GreenCavalier 11 points 2 years ago

Ha! I read the following Science new article just today about how Purple Only Exists In Our Brains. It's written for a younger audience (I think), but it lays out how our sight works, and how our brains trick us into seeing purple (a red-blue colour, as opposed to violet).

Poor shrimpos, no purple for them, I bet.

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cholesterol 4 points 2 years ago

This phrasing always bothers me a little, because, as even the article quotes a scientist saying: “All colors are made up by the brain.”

Purple is special because it triggers from non-continuous wavelengths of light, not because the subjective experience of purple is an invention of the brain. Being 'invented' is something common to all colors. Or sounds. Or tastes.

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LanguageIsCool 5 points 2 years ago

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Schmoo 2 points 2 years ago

It's a good thing we can surpass the limitations of our perception by creating external tools that augment our senses and translate extra-sensory information about the world into something human perceptible. We've even gone so far as to send such devices into space.

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WolfLink 1 point 2 years ago

We don’t really detect direction of light exactly. Instead we detect the location in the eye where the light landed, and have lenses to focus the light onto our retina. That relationship does imply some of the directionality of the light, by ignoring light that goes in certain directions and relating the direction of light that does get detected to the location it ends up.

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Tlaloc_Temporal 20 points 2 years ago

By the same logic, we don't detect light, just the change in shape of certain proteins. The sky isn't blue, it's a subset of sunlight. We don't really touch things, we transmit forces with tiny magnets. Computers don't really do math, they just arrange states in certain ways.

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bane_killgrind 7 points 2 years ago

The world is beautiful makes my brain release endorphins

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LibertyLizard 4 points 2 years ago

Yeah I was trying to avoid those details. I think it’s fair to summarize that as a system that detects the direction light is coming from.

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mranachi 3 points 2 years ago

*we detect the direction of light by the location in the eye....ect.

There fixed it for you.

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MutilationWave 3 points 2 years ago

ect.

etc. It stands for the Latin words et cetera.

You haven't been saying ectcetera have you? Oh no.

Correctors better come correct.

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captain_aggravated 50 points 2 years ago

Reminds me a little of CD digital audio. The original Red Book audio standard hasn't really been improved upon because it's uncompressed audio which covers basically all of the range of human hearing within the capabilities of any speaker we could build. It's uncompressed because in the early 80's when the tech hit the market, it was completely unfeasible to include the CPU and RAM needed to decompress audio in real time.

Shrimp has more color receptors because he doesn't have enough neurons to run trichromacy, so he sees in EGA.

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gabereal 31 points 2 years ago

Shrimp has more color receptors because he doesn’t have enough neurons to run trichromacy, so he sees in EGA.

love this. nice job :)

VGA vs EGA, from the game 'Police Quest 3'

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jballs 18 points 2 years ago

I remember experiencing the EGA to VGA graphics evolution when I was growing up. I remember thinking the VGA almost seemed too real.

In my mind, this was a game that felt like it was pretend:

But this felt entirely too real:

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot 2 points 2 years ago

Have you played The Crimson Diamond? EGA is back, baby!

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jballs 0 points 2 years ago

If you love the old murder mystery games like the Laura Bow Mystery Series, you will enjoy this game

Oh man, I had completely forgotten about the old Laura Bow games! Might have to check this out!

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null_dot 9 points 2 years ago

Oh man.

12 year old me waiting for hours to rip mp3s from cds always wondered about this.

Like why isn't it already compressed?

The answer is that storage was available but processing wasn't. Amaze.

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T156 -6 points 2 years ago

Mp3 is already compressed, as is the MP2 CDs use.

If it wasn't conpressed, you'd be looking at CDs per track, instead of tracks per CD.

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deltapi 16 points 2 years ago

What are you on about? CD-DA, aka audio CD, aka red book audio, is uncompressed 16-bit PCM sampled at 44100Hz. It is lossless.

MP3 (MPEG-1/2 Audio Layer III) is a lossy encoding standard commonly used for online audio distribution and steaming. MP2 usually refers to MPEG-1 Audio Layer 2, which was most commonly used in Digital Audio Broadcast.

Neither are used in 'regular' CD audio.

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SaharaMaleikuhm 2 points 2 years ago

I'd like to subscribe to the format facts newsletter. Can you do VHS next?

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captain_aggravated 0 points 2 years ago

It is lossless.

I'm not sure that's the right word for uncompressed digital audio, because it's lossless compared to what? Presumably an analog recording or the original input signal? Because Shannon-Nyquist, with CD audio you can't get anything higher than what? 16kHz out of it, but within that limitation you can reproduce any arbitrary waveform within a speaker's ability to produce given the laws of physics regarding inductance and inertia.

MP3 does use a lossy compression, but you can maintain listenable quality while cramming about 10 times as much audio into a given space. You can get just over an hour of Red Book audio on a CD, and about 11 hours of mp3s, give or take. You might get lower audio bandwidth or various kinds of artifacts but it'll still sound pretty good, it's way more practical to store and transmit over the internet. We didn't Napster no .wav files.

FLAC and similar formats use lossless compression, kind of like a .zip file. If you rip a CD to FLAC, and you were to then burn a CD from that FLAC, the data on the new CD would be identical to the old one. So you get as-perfect-as-we-can-do digital audio, but only 5 or 6 hours worth would fit on a CD. Someone somewhere on this earth has filled a compact disc with FLAC files, I'm sure.

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humanspiral 3 points 2 years ago

Is moral of your story that adults having frequency detection limited to 16khz, with older adults lower, might still be able to detect music well enough?

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electricyarn 46 points 2 years ago

Horrible news

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te_abstract_art 16 points 2 years ago

Ruined my day tbh

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pelespirit 43 points 2 years ago

How did they test if they could see color? Did they make little shrimp dioramas or something?

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Donkter 47 points 2 years ago

They asked them politely

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GoodLuckToFriends 29 points 2 years ago

The easiest way is to use the principles of conditioning. Pair a stimulus with a certain color light, then start flashing up different colored lights. If the organism is cued to the stimulus by multiple colors of lights, it means that they can't really distinguish between them.

That's how we tested when kids lose the ability to distinguish certain phonemes.

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Guns0rWeD13 2 points 2 years ago

it makes me happy when people understand science.

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Wilco 15 points 2 years ago

They give them a miniature color blind print that has those numbers in them that are hidden if you are color blind.

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Zoboomafoo 34 points 2 years ago

The shrimp are holier than we are because they cannot see the devil's color (it's pink 🩷)

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pzzzt 19 points 2 years ago

You mean light red?

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Panamalt 23 points 2 years ago

That is clearly embarrassed white

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pzzzt 2 points 2 years ago

Blushing white lol

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humorlessrepost 4 points 2 years ago

ITT: people saying pink (light red) when they mean magenta

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pzzzt 1 point 2 years ago

I would say magenta is a different color than pink. But I was just making a joke about how there's light bike and light yellow but if you add white to red it's a different color

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Geodad 24 points 2 years ago

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DragonTypeWyvern 22 points 2 years ago

That doesn't make them fake, in the same way that x can mean 2. You are merely representing a given value (in this case light within a certain electromagnetic spectrum) in a useful way.

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voodooattack 10 points 2 years ago

But is my red the same as your red? Hmmm?

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Guns0rWeD13 16 points 2 years ago

if two people can both point to red and agree that it's red, that's close enough. anything beyond that is just pointless esoteric debate.

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ArsonButCute 7 points 2 years ago

I disagree that it's pointless. I think it may be beneficial to humanity (eventually) to establish whether or not there is an objective reality which we all experience.

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voodooattack 2 points 2 years ago

It was a joke?

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Hudell 1 point 2 years ago

Some people see numbers instead/along with colors, and different people see different numbers, so I guess the colors might be different between people too

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Geodad 4 points 2 years ago

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sfu 4 points 2 years ago

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Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 5 points 2 years ago

Pink isn't real. There is no wavelength of light that is pink.

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bilb 6 points 2 years ago

Its bright red, maybe toward purple! Brown is dark orange.

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Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 5 points 2 years ago

Light frequencies between blue and red don't exist.

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MystikIncarnate 3 points 2 years ago

This person colors

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MystikIncarnate 4 points 2 years ago

Clearly, it's light-ish red.

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sfu 0 points 2 years ago

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Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 1 point 2 years ago

For pink light to be perceived, it needs red cones to fully react, and both green and blue cones to only partially activate.

https://gizmodo.com/...

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baatliwala 24 points 2 years ago

I need to use wherewithal more in my daily life

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ignotum 9 points 2 years ago

Every lunar month, when there is a full moon, i try quitting caffeine

werewithdrawal

(I initially misread you comment)

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ouRKaoS 8 points 2 years ago

I wish I had the wherewithal to use it more often.

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Philharmonic3 22 points 2 years ago

My whole world is crumbling

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Couldbealeotard 17 points 2 years ago

Isn't it amazing how birds reverse engineered airplanes?

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MutilationWave 5 points 2 years ago

Did a shit job of it too, got the wings all flapping around like a bunch of idiots.

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Lemminary 5 points 2 years ago

I want to see a bird swing around its break as a propeller.

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GoodLuckToFriends 4 points 2 years ago

That's silly thinking. Everyone knows birds aren't real, so they're just late-stage planes created by engineers forced to follow certain constraints.

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TTH4P 16 points 2 years ago

This is really cool, but it's also over a decade old info. I remember growing up in awe of Mantis shrimp and then, as with all wonder, this was removed from my life in adulthood. :)

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brbposting 6 points 2 years ago

Thanks I was gonna check

Still one of today’s lucky 10K!

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xorollo 4 points 2 years ago

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Wizzard 15 points 2 years ago

But compared with human eyesight, they could still see more 'colors' - As we see (almost) the same white in incandescent bulbs as LEDs and fluorescents, they might actually see the component colors and their intensities.

Not unlike how we may hear a combination tone when multiple other tones are played, and hear the difference (or sum) of them.

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WhatsTheHoldup 0 points 2 years ago

How would you suggest they do that. White light near equally activates our 3 cones because all spectrums of light are in it.

White light near equally activates all 12 shrimp cones because all spectrums of light are in it.

Which spectrum of color is left out of white light that wouldn't light up a cone associated with it?

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JackbyDev 11 points 2 years ago

Because white light from an LED bulb is not all spectrums of light. It's 3. It's pure red, pure green, and pure blue that stimulates our cones equally so our brain can't tell the difference. Like how TVs can make any color out of just three colors of sub pixel.

White light from an incandescent bulb is all spectrums of light. Through a prism it makes a rainbow. White LEDs through a prism make three stripes. For more information of this and some visuals check out this article. https://en.wikipedia.org/...

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CaptainSpaceman 1 point 2 years ago

6500k vs 5000k is noticeable for humans

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tigeruppercut 15 points 2 years ago

Really wish talking about what shrimp see didn't remind me that in farming them females have one eye removed to promote breeding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyestalk_ablation

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Sedathems 17 points 2 years ago

I am eternally gratefull the practice is forbidden in Europe in organic cultivation. It's one of the small wins that fly under the radar. It's still a long way to people choosing for organic, awareness is the start of every change.

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MystikIncarnate 5 points 2 years ago

Can't fix what you don't know is wrong.

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flicker 3 points 2 years ago

Anyone who eats shrimp should absolutely read this.

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hikuro93 13 points 2 years ago

I... must... be... strong... must... not... do... it... must... resist... the urge...

🎵 But I'm only human 🎶

escondido

We got shrimp drama before GTA VI

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wander1236 12 points 2 years ago

Shrimply*

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MossyFeathers 12 points 2 years ago

Yeah, but, imagine the possibilities in humans

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Iron_Lynx 12 points 2 years ago

Imagine how OP their colour perception would be if they did have that mental processing power

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Dasus 2 points 2 years ago

Oh that explains this scene

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hark 11 points 2 years ago

Hardware vs software solution?

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JusticeForPorygon 10 points 2 years ago

Shrimp photoreceptor situation is crazy

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BlushedPotatoPlayers 9 points 2 years ago

Disappointed. But didn't the have receptors for differently polarized light? What about that?

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FooBarrington 6 points 2 years ago

Color me appointed, at least we're not missing out on fresh new colors!

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Natanael 4 points 2 years ago

Polarization filters on retinal photoreceptor won't make light wavelength (color) be perceived different, it just changes the conditions in which it's detected. If those polarized cells would cover unique colors compared to the rest, it would kinda resemble the highlight effect in Mirror's Edge, where something with a different angle than the surroundings stand out (sudden color gradient)

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Guns0rWeD13 8 points 2 years ago

I hate that it invalidates this episode of radiolab, which is, without a doubt, a masterpiece of podcasting:

https://youtu.be/jibvu9BHV_k?t=795

i saved the video at the 13 minute mark where they do the audio representation of the vivid colors. still worth a watch/listen

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JuxtaposedJaguar 2 points 2 years ago

Blue blue green greeeeeeeeeeennnnn

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Guns0rWeD13 2 points 2 years ago

super super ultravioleeeeet

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Kolanaki 7 points 2 years ago

So are any animals actually capable of seeing the invisible spectrums of light? Because humans technically can see them, since we make tools that allow us to. Suck on that, other animals. 😤

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JackbyDev 15 points 2 years ago

Like infrared and ultraviolet? Yeah, there are animals that see those.

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Shou 7 points 2 years ago

And all the other stuff we yse to see celestial objects and communicate long distance. Our phones are able to see colours we can't!

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JackbyDev 5 points 2 years ago

I've been thinking about how a species with a metal horn could evolve to use it as a radio and even a hive mind.

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Daefsdeda 5 points 2 years ago

Imagine aliens attacking us but getting fucked because their hive mind works on the same frequency of radio or wifi.

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Shou 2 points 2 years ago

Seems limited. Pheromone mix is far more suitable for a hive mind.

path: 0 16248614 16248767 16249135 16251659 16256426, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 1

gajahmada 4 points 2 years ago

Birds ?

I'm not gonna pretend I understand the magic words here https://royalsocietypublishing.org/...

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Snowclone 5 points 2 years ago

They mean mantis shrimp... this non technical language bothers me so much...

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bluewing 5 points 2 years ago

They still taste good. So they got that going for them I guess.

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MystikIncarnate 5 points 2 years ago

I'm not a fan, but that's neither here nor there. I'm weird.

I'm just not sure that flavor can be considered a positive character trait?

Maybe I'm stupid. Who knows? Clearly not me.

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emeralddawn45 5 points 2 years ago

Maybe you taste good at least.

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MystikIncarnate 2 points 2 years ago

I also would not know about that.

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turnip 0 points 2 years ago

Its the crunchy nature that I find appealing, the flavor is only okay by itself.

I like them in salad rolls, with marinara dip, and deep fried.

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almost1337 3 points 2 years ago

Usually you take the shell off before eating

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LovableSidekick 5 points 2 years ago

I don't think of it as drama so much as docucomedy.

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mmddmm 4 points 2 years ago

Some hugely detailed and really certain knowledge from neurology...

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starman2112 4 points 2 years ago

Makes me feel better about being a human. Our eyes are not deficient. Humans are superior!

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RizzRustbolt 2 points 2 years ago

They can still see true magenta though.

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RememberTheApollo_ 2 points 2 years ago

Green and red do not come back yellow, it makes brown…or is there some other process they’re describing?

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SlimeKnight 23 points 2 years ago

There is two types of color blending, tint and light.

Tint is what is usually taught, primaries are red, blue,yellow and we make the rest with them.

With light however, the primaries are Red, Blue and Green. Most image editing software use light blending, so you can zoom on a pixel and use a color picker to get its RGB value. And to make yellow with light blending, you combine red and green

Extra fun fact! Tint primaries are actually Magenta, Yellow, and Cyan.

Red + Blue = Magenta Red + Green = Yellow Green + Blue = Cyan

Magenta + Yellow = Red Magenta + Cyan = Blue Cyan + Yellow = Green

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assertnull 8 points 2 years ago

My apologies if I missed the /s but eyesight works in additive colors, not subtractive

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SpacetimeMachine 1 point 2 years ago

Brown is just darker orange

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sidtirouluca 1 point a year ago

lol skill issue, fucking noobs!

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Wofls 0 points 2 years ago

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lena 0 points 2 years ago

!lemmysilver

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Geetnerd -1 points 2 years ago

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science_memes

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science_memes

@mander.xyz

login for more options

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.

Rules

Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
Keep it rooted (on topic).
No spam.
Infographics welcome, get schooled.

Research Committee

!spiders@lemmy.world

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

go to feed...